Game Thread: Yankees v Twins, 4/26 @ 12:10pm CT

[RickOShea]

Post game Presser:

 

Reporter: Rocco, any thoughts?

Rocco: Yeah, if we had a manager with his head not in the sand, this game might have been more competitive. This is my mulligan for the season.

Reporter:  Sorry, rocco, but you used that Mulligan week 2 of the season.

Rocco:  Oh darn, you guys.

[Parfigliano]

2 out of 3 against Yanks and season series win.  Hopefully Miranda is getting right along with Larnach.

[USAFChief]

Take 2 of 4 in NY, then 2 of 3 at home vs the Yankees, and STILL somehow managed to leave a sour taste. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

Tough crowd in here. Did the Twins get swept?

Seriously though, lighten up a bit. It's one game of 162 and the Twins just won the season series against the Yankees for the first time in 22 years.

I drove into downtown and wasted two hours of my life at this dumpster fire of a game and I'm not half as mad as a bunch of people in this thread.

[chpettit19]

Just now, Aggies7 said:

The gigantic difference you’re ignoring is that the bullpen was quite literally ravaged on an almost nightly basis last year. 12 outs a game. And it wasn’t just bundy and archer getting early hooks. You know that.

The bullpen was as rested as possible and he allowed our weakest starter, whose “hard hit %” is wayyy up, to get rocked and put the game out of reach. If you want to say he shouldn’t have been pulled after 2, ok fine. But yeah he was left in until the game was put out of reasonable reach.

Totally a fair argument if it was July or August when the "quick hook" complaints started. But it wasn't. Gigantic thing you're ignoring is that the complaint about the quick hooks wasn't about the pen until the pen fell apart halfway through the year. The complaint began in April during Bundy and Archer's starts and was about not letting starters work out of their own jams. It had nothing to do with the pen. It was just a general complaint that Rocco was babying starters and not letting them go a 3rd time through the order. But, now, today, the complaint is that Rocco should've known better than to let Maeda stay in there after he'd seemingly righted the ship in a 4 hitter 3rd inning.

He should've just known and taken him out. If the arguments made here were that Rocco should've gotten Headrick up sooner, that's totally fine. But they're not. At least not all of them. The arguments are that he should've taken him out of the game after the 3rd. Not because fans actually thought that, but because we love 20/20 hindsight around here. Pulled after, or during, the 2nd? Ok, can make an argument. Pulled earlier in the 4th? Sure, I would've. Pulled after the 3rd and not allowed to take the mound in the 4th? Hindsight and nothing more.

[Aggies7]

1 minute ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Tough crowd in here. Did the Twins get swept?

Seriously though, lighten up a bit. It's one game of 162 and the Twins just won the season series against the Yankees for the first time in 22 years.

I drove into downtown and wasted two hours of my life at this dumpster fire of a game and I'm not half as mad as a bunch of people in this thread.

We’re just bantering that’s all lol. I thought that was the purpose of a message board.

[Aggies7]

3 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Totally a fair argument if it was July or August when the "quick hook" complaints started. But it wasn't. Gigantic thing you're ignoring is that the complaint about the quick hooks wasn't about the pen until the pen fell apart halfway through the year. The complaint began in April during Bundy and Archer's starts and was about not letting starters work out of their own jams. It had nothing to do with the pen. It was just a general complaint that Rocco was babying starters and not letting them go a 3rd time through the order. But, now, today, the complaint is that Rocco should've known better than to let Maeda stay in there after he'd seemingly righted the ship in a 4 hitter 3rd inning.

He should've just known and taken him out. If the arguments made here were that Rocco should've gotten Headrick up sooner, that's totally fine. But they're not. At least not all of them. The arguments are that he should've taken him out of the game after the 3rd. Not because fans actually thought that, but because we love 20/20 hindsight around here. Pulled after, or during, the 2nd? Ok, can make an argument. Pulled earlier in the 4th? Sure, I would've. Pulled after the 3rd and not allowed to take the mound in the 4th? Hindsight and nothing more.

Your first paragraph is just flat out untrue. There were people very early on saying that bullpen was going to be gassed if they were asked to get 12 outs a night. I know because I was one of them.

 

I think if today’s game happened on the same date last year, with a similarly rested bullpen, nobody would have complained about a one off early hook. It was clear he didn’t have it. In his first 3 innings, 8 of the balls put in play had an EV of over 95. Even that third inning when he apparently cruised, he had a couple.

[chpettit19]

Just now, Aggies7 said:

Your first paragraph is just flat out untrue. There were people very early on saying that bullpen was going to be gassed if they were asked to get 12 outs a night. I know because I was one of them.

That paragraph is flat out untrue, because they weren't being asked to get 12 outs a night. Ryan, Gray, and Paddack were all going 6 or 7 innings a start early in the season. But that fact was ignored all last year so why not continue to ignore it now? You very well may have started being concerned about that early. But there were many who weren't concerned about that and were complaining about bullpen use in April. FYI, the Twins were 16th in baseball in bullpen innings last April. Clearly the complaints were that they were really, really overusing those arms by being right smack dab in the middle of bullpen usage. Rocco should be sued for how much he overworked those guys.

[Schmoeman5]

3 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

Your first paragraph is just flat out untrue. There were people very early on saying that bullpen was going to be gassed if they were asked to get 12 outs a night. I know because I was one of them.

That is correct. Archer was getting pulled after 4 or 5 with a light pitch count and the lead. Same for the rest of the starters last year early because of the short spring training. The bullpen was being called on for 12-15 outs a lot

[chpettit19]

3 minutes ago, Schmoeman5 said:

That is correct. Archer was getting pulled after 4 or 5 with a light pitch count and the lead. Same for the rest of the starters last year early because of the short spring training. The bullpen was being called on for 12-15 outs a lot

Not early, so no, it isn't correct. The revisionist history around here is unbelievable. 3 of the 5 guys in the rotation were going 6 or 7 innings a start in April. The Twins bullpen threw the 16th most innings in baseball in April. It is simply ignoring the actual reality of the start of last year to suggest they were going 12-15 outs a night.

[Aggies7]

18 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

That paragraph is flat out untrue, because they weren't being asked to get 12 outs a night. Ryan, Gray, and Paddack were all going 6 or 7 innings a start early in the season. But that fact was ignored all last year so why not continue to ignore it now? You very well may have started being concerned about that early. But there were many who weren't concerned about that and were complaining about bullpen use in April. FYI, the Twins were 16th in baseball in bullpen innings last April. Clearly the complaints were that they were really, really overusing those arms by being right smack dab in the middle of bullpen usage. Rocco should be sued for how much he overworked those guys.

Gray didn’t pitch into the 6th inning until May 18

3/4 Ober starts in April were 5 or less innings. One was 6

2/4 bundy starts in April were 5 innings, the other two were 6

All 4 of archer’s April starts were 5 or less innings.

2/3 paddack April starts were 5 or less innings. The other was 6.

Joe Ryan had one start in April of 4 innings, 2 were 6 and one was 7.

 

not exactly 6-7 innings a start every night 

 

[Aggies7]

6 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Not early, so no, it isn't correct. The revisionist history around here is unbelievable. 3 of the 5 guys in the rotation were going 6 or 7 innings a start in April. The Twins bullpen threw the 16th most innings in baseball in April. It is simply ignoring the actual reality of the start of last year to suggest they were going 12-15 outs a night.

This is just not true lol

[Original_JB]

34 minutes ago, Squirrel said:

Do you have a little up arrow on the left hand side of the page? Use that. Takes you to the top

Thanks! I do and it does. Still would be nice to have it work as one would think it should though.

[Schmoeman5]

6 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Not early, so no, it isn't correct. The revisionist history around here is unbelievable. 3 of the 5 guys in the rotation were going 6 or 7 innings a start in April. The Twins bullpen threw the 16th most innings in baseball in April. It is simply ignoring the actual reality of the start of last year to suggest they were going 12-15 outs a night.

And you're revising it too. The Twins were getting longer starts from Ryan and Paddack. Bundy had a couple. But when Bundy Archer and Gray which is 3/5 of the rotation what were the bullpen innings for their starts. That theme ran all year long. Enough to where Sonny Gray had an article about letting pitchers go longer this year. 

[chpettit19]

7 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

Gray didn’t pitch into the 6th inning until May 18

3/4 Ober starts in April were 5 or less innings 

2/4 bundy starts in April were 5 innings, the other two were 6

All 4 of archer’s April starts were 5 or less innings.

2/3 paddack April starts were 5 or less innings. The other was 6.

Joe Ryan had one start in April of 4 innings, 2 were 6 and one was 7.

 

not exactly 6-7 innings a start every night 

 

They had 2 relievers over 10 IP in April last year (Duran and Winder). They already have 2 this year and Moran at 9.2. Not exactly burning them out drastically more than this year. Or, should we be worried about the bullpen wearing out already? I mean, after today, they're only 4 innings below where they were for last April, and you were worried about them then. But shouldn't have been worried about it today because they just aren't using the pen so much.

[Aggies7]

6 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

They had 2 relievers over 10 IP in April last year (Duran and Winder). They already have 2 this year and Moran at 9.2. Not exactly burning them out drastically more than this year. Or, should we be worried about the bullpen wearing out already? I mean, after today, they're only 4 innings below where they were for last April, and you were worried about them then. But shouldn't have been worried about it today because they just aren't using the pen so much.

Ah, shifting the argument I see.

 

you realize that the twins played a total of 21 games all of last April, right? We’ve already played 25, with 4 more to go.

[Schmoeman5]

1 minute ago, chpettit19 said:

They had 2 relievers over 10 IP in April last year (Duran and Winder). They already have 2 this year and Moran at 9.2. Not exactly burning them out drastically more than this year. Or, should we be worried about the bullpen wearing out already? I mean, after today, they're only 4 innings below where they were for last April, and you were worried about them then. But shouldn't have been worried about it today because they just aren't using the pen so much.

So today is April 26. Are you saying the Twins have 4 fewer bullpen innings from this date, or after 25 games. Because on the 26th of April 2022 the Twins hadn't played 25 games

[Aggies7]

1 minute ago, Schmoeman5 said:

So today is April 26. Are you saying the Twins have 4 fewer bullpen innings from this date, or after 25 games. Because on the 26th of April 2022 the Twins hadn't played 25 games

Season didn’t start until April 8 last year. The games are not remotely equal so any comparison would be foolhardy 

[Schmoeman5]

4 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

Ah, shifting the argument I see.

 

you realize that twins played a total of 21 games all of last April, right? We’ve already played 25, with 4 more to go.

That's why I pay little attention to all the stats guys. You and I and a whole bunch of others see the difference. But they won't admit it

[chpettit19]

1 minute ago, Aggies7 said:

Ah, shifting the argument I see.

No. The argument has always been that the narrative to start last year was that starters needed to work out of their own jams, but today the narrative is that Rocco needs to pull guys before they blow up, which was counter to what the complaints were last year. Then you brought up that you were concerned early about the bullpen early, and I've pointed out that the bullpen is being used the same amount now so if you were worried last year you should be worried this year, and shouldn't have wanted Maeda pulled early because it'd destroy the bullpen and the season will be doomed again. Unless you weren't really concerned with bullpen usage last April?

I definitely had Gray's timeline wrong. He got hurt even earlier than I'd thought. But Ryan and Bundy were still going more than 5 innings a start, and only Archer wasn't going 5. They also piggybacked Archer with Winder early on so the pen wasn't being used extra in those games.

[Schmoeman5]

2 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

Season didn’t start until April 8 last year. The games are not remotely equal so any comparison would be foolhardy 

But your comment was that this year's bullpen has thrown only 4 less innings in April. Well that's wrong because they played 4 less games last April for the entire month than they've played as of today

[Schmoeman5]

1 minute ago, Schmoeman5 said:

But your comment was that this year's bullpen has thrown only 4 less innings in April. Well that's wrong because they played 4 less games last April for the entire month than they've played as of today

Sorry Aggies7. That was for other poster

[Aggies7]

7 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

No. The argument has always been that the narrative to start last year was that starters needed to work out of their own jams, but today the narrative is that Rocco needs to pull guys before they blow up, which was counter to what the complaints were last year. Then you brought up that you were concerned early about the bullpen early, and I've pointed out that the bullpen is being used the same amount now so if you were worried last year you should be worried this year, and shouldn't have wanted Maeda pulled early because it'd destroy the bullpen and the season will be doomed again. Unless you weren't really concerned with bullpen usage last April?

I definitely had Gray's timeline wrong. He got hurt even earlier than I'd thought. But Ryan and Bundy were still going more than 5 innings a start, and only Archer wasn't going 5. They also piggybacked Archer with Winder early on so the pen wasn't being used extra in those games.

Why would I be concerned about bullpen usage in 2023 when we have less innings pitching from the bullpen this year than we did all of last April, with 4 more games in 2023?

You’re digging yourself a hole. Comparing last year to this year is wild and you keep doing it. The games played number is not the same, the pitchers are mostly not the same. There’s no comparison. Our bullpen is less taxed because our starters are being allowed to go longer. So when you have a blow up game like today, you can go the bullpen and try to keep the game within reach. Or you can sit there and get behind by 10 runs until you act. I like the former, personally.

[chpettit19]

5 minutes ago, Schmoeman5 said:

So today is April 26. Are you saying the Twins have 4 fewer bullpen innings from this date, or after 25 games. Because on the 26th of April 2022 the Twins hadn't played 25 games

4 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

Season didn’t start until April 8 last year. The games are not remotely equal so any comparison would be foolhardy 

2 minutes ago, Schmoeman5 said:

That's why I pay little attention to all the stats guys. You and I and a whole bunch of others see the difference. But they won't admit it

I was using all of April because I knew the games weren't the same.

You guys are right. I am wrong. I admit it.

On another note, you definitely shouldn't pay attention to us "stat guys." All those billionaire owners hired people like us instead of people like you because "stat guys" have no idea what they're doing, or how to win baseball games. No sense in paying attention to the stat guys.

[Aggies7]

2 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

I was using all of April because I knew the games weren't the same.

You guys are right. I am wrong. I admit it.

On another note, you definitely shouldn't pay attention to us "stat guys." All those billionaire owners hired people like us instead of people like you because "stat guys" have no idea what they're doing, or how to win baseball games. No sense in paying attention to the stat guys.

I think we can all agree that Maeda should no longer be a starter. 

[chpettit19]

Just now, Aggies7 said:

I think we can all agree that Maeda should no longer be a starter. 

We can't. I'd give him 2 more starts. And the other thing many won't agree with me on is that I'd give his spot to Varland, not Ober, if he stumbles in his next 2 starts.

[Schmoeman5]

6 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

We can't. I'd give him 2 more starts. And the other thing many won't agree with me on is that I'd give his spot to Varland, not Ober, if he stumbles in his next 2 starts.

According to Rocco he's getting a mri. I see IL coming, so he'll have to make a choice

[chpettit19]

5 minutes ago, Schmoeman5 said:

According to Rocco he's getting a mri. I see IL coming, so he'll have to make a choice

The IL makes a lot of sense to me. And his 2 starts that I'd give him can come in AAA then. To me, the question isn't so much whether he can go 5/6 innings vs 1/2 innings, it's if he can go at all. I'm not worried about his stamina, or velo, I'm worried about his control. Without it he's toast, and then he can just have Pagan's 2 inning mop up role.

[Schmoeman5]

17 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

I was using all of April because I knew the games weren't the same.

You guys are right. I am wrong. I admit it.

On another note, you definitely shouldn't pay attention to us "stat guys." All those billionaire owners hired people like us instead of people like you because "stat guys" have no idea what they're doing, or how to win baseball games. No sense in paying attention to the stat guys.

Billionaires gave been hiring bean counters for centuries. For increased profits and maximizing efficiency. I'm a retired truck driver who increased my company's productivity by 30% with common sense. I was in the field. Owners employ stats guys for 1 reason. And it's not to win games

[sampleSizeOfOne]

Well i'm glad we kept chipping at it.

 

One of these days we'll get a big come from behinder.