Ryan Doumit Reinforces Mauer's Value at Catcher

[bwille]

One of the things that I noticed from Sunday's game was the lack of defensive ability for our backup catcher Ryan Doumit. As a result, I wrote an article that examines whether or not we need to address this issue or if we have been spoiled by Mauer and instead must accept Doumit's shortcomings for what they are.

 

 

 

"Doumit does a decent job behind the plate and for what the Twins ask him to do, he does a serviceable job. All I am saying is that Doumit’s struggles behind the plate really does demonstrate how valuable Mauer is to the Twins as a catcher and the difference he makes on a game when he is behind the plate."

What do you think Twins Daily, should the Twins use a roster spot on a better defensive backup catcher or will Doumit's shortcomings not play as big of a factor in the Twins' success as I assume?

 

Ryan Doumit: Minnesota Twins Must Look at Liability of Backup Catcher

 

[Brock Beauchamp]

If Mauer catches 120 games, I don't care about Doumit's defensive shortcomings. What he brings offensively at DH and on the bench offsets his catching woes.

 

If Doumit is going to catch 40% or more of the starts, then his defense starts to be a problem.

[greengoblinrulz]

Exactly....Doumit is very fine for his 35-40 starts for the bat he brings. Butera brought nothing to the table as a fine defensive catcher. Both get overexposed for different things when they paly too often. Im actually in camp to get Arcia more ABs as DH & have Doumit on bench.....tho that means Gardy will refuse to use him as a PH.

[stringer bell]

Exactly....Doumit is very fine for his 35-40 starts for the bat he brings. Butera brought nothing to the table as a fine defensive catcher. Both get overexposed for different things when they paly too often. Im actually in camp to get Arcia more ABs as DH & have Doumit on bench.....tho that means Gardy will refuse to use him as a PH.

I was only half-listening, but I think DickBert were saying that Gardy would only pinch-hit Doumit for the DH (Arcia on Saturday). He could still hit for an outfielder under Gardy's "rule", but he'd have to stay in the game as an outfielder.

[Mike Sixel]

Problem is, Doumit isn't a very good DH either, not compared to other DHs....now, compared to the options the Twins have, and teh fact he can also be the backup catcher, I'm good with him being on the roster. Personally, I believe catcher defense is one of the last great myths of baseball. Sure, framing might matter, but all the rest is probably BS.

 

As for Mauer, he looks great compared to Doumit, but that does make him good at being a catcher. As far as I can tell, his defensive stats have been well below average for this year and last. I don't watch enough other baseball to compare him to other catchers, but those who do, don't score him so well anymore.

[ThePuck]

Problem is, Doumit isn't a very good DH either, not compared to other DHs....now, compared to the options the Twins have, and teh fact he can also be the backup catcher, I'm good with him being on the roster. Personally, I believe catcher defense is one of the last great myths of baseball. Sure, framing might matter, but all the rest is probably BS.

 

As for Mauer, he looks great compared to Doumit, but that does make him good at being a catcher. As far as I can tell, his defensive stats have been well below average for this year and last. I don't watch enough other baseball to compare him to other catchers, but those who do, don't score him so well anymore.

 

Scioscia just got done saying Mauer is a fantastic defensive catcher...and the man knows something about being a very good defensive catcher.

[Mike Sixel]

That's nice. Managers also still think sacrifice bunts are a good idea. I know not everyone agrees, but the people who watch replays of every game, and map every defensive play, those are the people I choose to trust about who is good at what. Just curious, how much does Scioscia see him play? I mean, compared to the guys that watch every game, chart every play?

[ThePuck]

That's nice. Managers also still think sacrifice bunts are a good idea. I know not everyone agrees, but the people who watch replays of every game, and map every defensive play, those are the people I choose to trust about who is good at what. Just curious, how much does Scioscia see him play? I mean, compared to the guys that watch every game, chart every play?

 

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of giving up outs either...

 

As far as how much Scioscia sees him, I guess it depends on how much film he watches. I'm guessing he's seen a lot of the last few years, but that's just a guess. I haven't seen Scioscia give up much praise for catching defense over the years though...I do remember not so long ago him talking about the decline of catching skills overall. In any event, he had no reason to praise Mauer's defense in this case. Could have stuck with just praising his offense.

[Mike Sixel]

Fair enough, I'm hoping he returns to his stellar defensive form of a few years ago.....either way, still one of the greatest hitters in the game.

 

And to me, this thread is more about Doumit, or should be. And as a backup catcher, I have no issue with him. It would be great, though, to have a better DH.....

[Brock Beauchamp]

And to me, this thread is more about Doumit, or should be. And as a backup catcher, I have no issue with him. It would be great, though, to have a better DH.....

 

It'd be nice to have better players everywhere but Doumit is not a problem at DH. You can expect a .775 OPS from the guy, which puts him somewhere around league average for a DH. Add in his flexibility as backup catcher and bench bat and he's a valuable guy on the roster... The kind of guy winning teams have 2-3 of to complement their star players.

[Siehbiscuit]

It'd be nice to have better players everywhere but Doumit is not a problem at DH. You can expect a .775 OPS from the guy, which puts him somewhere around league average for a DH. Add in his flexibility as backup catcher and bench bat and he's a valuable guy on the roster... The kind of guy winning teams have 2-3 of to complement their star players.

 

Agree 100%. Doumit is not the problem at DH or even as a backup catcher. Although, he isn't great defensively, he does seem to call a good game when behind the plate. Regarding all Twins catchers, if I had to choose, I would rather our catchers be great at calling a game than being defensive wizards. Just my opinion.

[Guest USAFChief]

"One of the things that I noticed from Sunday's game was the lack of defensive ability for our backup catcher Ryan Doumit" What exactly did you notice about Doumit's defensive ability Sunday? Your article mentions nothing but CS %, which is only one specific measure of catcher defense, and one a catcher isn't totally responsible for, at that. Even by your chosen measure, there isn't much difference between Mauer and Doumit for their careers, and it's worth noting that Mauer's CS % has been trending downward since 2007, bottoming at 12% on 2012.

[stringer bell]

I don't think Mauer is as good defensively as he was early in his career. I think he lets too many balls past him (scored Wild Pitches) and his throwing was off last year. That said, I think he's still a good defender and within reach of winning another Gold Glove. Most of Mauer's throwing woes were from the pitchers not giving him a chance or very little chance.

 

Regarding Doumit, I'm not in love with him DHing and I also don't think he's an ideal backup. The ideal backup for Mauer could/should be a defense-first RH hitting guy with some power and versatility. There aren't a lot of those guys out there, obviously. I don't think the season turns on Doumit's defense. Pitching is the key here and secondly, the guys given an opportunity to become regulars need to earn it--Hicks, Dozier, Plouffe, Parmelee, Arcia and Florimon.

[Riverbrian]

Catcher defense is very important and what's important about it is very very hard to quantify.

 

The catcher is the defensive QB... He sees the field... He calls the cuts. He calls the pitches... He has the relationship with the Pitcher. It can't be quantified from our distance.

 

Unless... With a decent enough sample size... You see a consistent pattern of Runs scored against a certain catcher using the same pitchers. Yet... There are so many different factors that would make you question that data.

 

CS%... That's mostly the pitcher... By the time the Pitcher is done with the base runner and delivers... The damage has been done. Holding the runner and delivery time to the plate. Catcher POP time in the pros better be under 2 seconds.

 

If they are not under 2... chances are... they have been moved to another position. Average is 1.80. You are talking about .2 seconds difference between average and passable... That's tight.

 

Catcher defense is all about Pitch selection and cuts. Nailing the runner is such a small thing.

[Oxtung]

Catcher defense is very important and what's important about it is very very hard to quantify.

 

If it's unquantifiable then how do you know it's "very important"?

[Riverbrian]

If it's unquantifiable then how do you know it's "very important"?

 

It's basic Baseball.

[Oxtung]

It's basic Baseball.

 

So because it's always been that way..... in other words.

[Riverbrian]

So because it's always been that way..... in other words.

 

Yup...

 

Although... I admit I wonder if we are talking about two different things.

[Oxtung]

Well I'm talking in a general sense about almost anything but your claims about catcher defense fall under that general sense.

 

If something is unquantifiable then it seems to be unknowable. So when you said:

 

Catcher defense is very important and what's important about it is very very hard to quantify.

 

I was wondering how you knew it was very very important.

[jorgenswest]

There have been several studies in the last few years related to receiving pitches. You will find Doumit at the bottom of all of these studies.

 

It may be one of the reasons he could not find a better offer after 2011. I am not sure the Twins were even aware of the study at the time. The Rays must have been. They signed Jose Molina the same winter.

 

I believe the Twins need a better solution at catcher behind Mauer. Butera is not a better solution. I don't know if Pinto or Herrmann will be a better solution. If not, it needs to be on the to do list next winter.

 

Meanwhile, Doumit is an adequate somewhat expensive DH/bench bat. I believe he is a significant liability anywhere he is put in the field.

[Riverbrian]

Well I'm talking in a general sense about almost anything but your claims about catcher defense fall under that general sense.

 

If something is unquantifiable then it seems to be unknowable. So when you said:

 

 

 

I was wondering how you knew it was very very important.

 

By hard to quantify... I mean... Hard to attach a stat to it.

 

Catchers are involved in every pitch. Pitch calling... psychology...

 

The catcher is the eyes for the entire infield on Cuts. No stats for that yet... Maybe someday.

 

Oddly... The main defensive stats used for catchers is CS%... And that is probably more the responsibility of the guy on the mound.

 

A catchers teammates know if he's getting it done... So does the Manager...

 

Us watching from the stands... Not so much.

 

It's knowable and I believe that Catchers make good manager candidates because it is knowable and very important.

 

Like I said... It's basic baseball.

[ThePuck]

Meanwhile, Doumit is an adequate somewhat expensive DH/bench bat. I believe he is a significant liability anywhere he is put in the field.

 

Expensive? Are you kidding? He's getting paid relative peanuts for a veteran and he's a starting major leaguer. And, you know, his salary is hardly pushing our budget over the top, stopping us from getting other players...

[Oxtung]

I believe the Twins need a better solution at catcher behind Mauer. Butera is not a better solution. I don't know if Pinto or Herrmann will be a better solution. If not, it needs to be on the to do list next winter.

 

Don't get your hopes up. You're almost guaranteed to be disappointed!

[Oxtung]

By hard to quantify... I mean... Hard to attach a stat to it.

 

Catchers are involved in every pitch. Pitch calling... psychology...

 

The catcher is the eyes for the entire infield on Cuts. No stats for that yet... Maybe someday.

 

Oddly... The main defensive stats used for catchers is CS%... And that is probably more the responsibility of the guy on the mound.

 

A catchers teammates know if he's getting it done... So does the Manager...

 

Us watching from the stands... Not so much.

 

It's knowable and I believe that Catchers make good manager candidates because it is knowable and very important.

 

Like I said... It's basic baseball.

 

Well this is clearly going no where so I'll just make my last point then leave it.

 

If there are no stats to back something up then it is just a guess. Guesses can be right but are wrong a disturbingly high percentage of the time also.

[Riverbrian]

Well this is clearly going no where so I'll just make my last point then leave it.

 

If there are no stats to back something up then it is just a guess. Guesses can be right but are wrong a disturbingly high percentage of the time also.

 

Not sure what to say about that. Have a nice remainder of your Monday!!!

[jorgenswest]

Expensive? Are you kidding? He's getting paid relative peanuts for a veteran and he's a starting major leaguer. And, you know, his salary is hardly pushing our budget over the top, stopping us from getting other players...

 

If he is a capable catcher, he is a bargain. I believe there are teams that do not consider an option at catcher.

 

If you take away catcher and compare home to a role of bench bat/DH you compare him to a different group.

 

Available this winter with similar OPS and no glove were Travis Hafner and Jim Thome. Hafner has a one year contract for 2 million. Thome is unsigned. We committed 7 million over 2 years. If he is only a bat, he is somewhat expensive compared to the market.

[ThePuck]

If he is a capable catcher, he is a bargain. I believe there are teams that do not consider an option at catcher.

 

If you take away catcher and compare home to a role of bench bat/DH you compare him to a different group.

 

Available this winter with similar OPS and no glove were Travis Hafner and Jim Thome. Hafner has a one year contract for 2 million. Thome is unsigned. We committed 7 million over 2 years. If he is only a bat, he is somewhat expensive compared to the market.

 

Dude had an OPS in the high .700s with 18HR and 75 RBI. He's getting paid 3.5M a year...that's it. That's nothing. He was a bargain last year and likely will be this season and next.

[jorgenswest]

Dude had an OPS in the high .700s with 18HR and 75 RBI. He's getting paid 3.5M a year...that's it. That's nothing. He was a bargain last year and likely will be this season and next.

 

What is the basis for likely? Is it normal that players in their 30s will continue to build on a career season?

 

I would think he has two factors that will drive down his performance over the next two seasons. He is likely to regress to his mean. He is likely to decline as he ages from 31 to 33.

 

As a bat, how much better is he than cheaper one year options like Chavez or Hafner?

[ThePuck]

What is the basis for likely? Is it normal that players in their 30s will continue to build on a career season?

 

I would think he has two factors that will drive down his performance over the next two seasons. He is likely to regress to his mean. He is likely to decline as he ages from 31 to 33.

 

As a bat, how much better is he than cheaper one year options like Chavez or Hafner?

 

We're not getting anywhere, so I'm done with it. Enjoyed the debate

[jorgenswest]

We're not getting anywhere, so I'm done with it. Enjoyed the debate

 

Agreed. I also enjoyed the debate. Thanks.