Ryan Doumit Reinforces Mauer's Value at Catcher

[Rosterman]

If the Twins had a true DH, I would be comfortable with Doumit being the 30-40 game backup catcher. As it stands now he is an adequate DH and can shift into other positions, allowing those players to DH. But going into 2014, I would keep him purely as a bench player wqho can play C-1B-OF if Morneau is gone and we need Mauer and Parmelee to fill the 1B hole more often than not. I could almost live with, say, Herrmann as the second catcher and a bench guy.

[Guest USAFChief]

Sabre-dudes used teh maths to calculate that if you ran out a bunch of waiver wire, AAA-types, you'd end up with a win total somewhere in the low to mid 50s. I can't remember the exact number.

 

Of course, it's not impossible to go under that number if you really really try to do it. But it's really rare.

 

Look at the 2012 Astros. They were absolutely awful and traded away every player with a pulse in July and still ended up around 55 wins.

It's how teh sabre-dudes are able to calculate who will make the playoffs each year before the season starts. They divide payroll by 8, add the result to 55, and presto!

[Riverbrian]

Clearly you don't understand my point. I asked you how you knew, since that is a definitive term, that all the things you listed were "very very important."

 

So far your answers have been:

• I played the game so I know.
  
• It's common knowledge.
  
• Other people believe it, so it's true.
  
• And defensive metrics are "sub-par." (Of course I have never mentioned them so congrats on that giant strawman.)
  

 

Awhile back... I took a trip to China... While visiting Qufu in the Shandong Province. I met a local by the name of Kung Tsai-Chang the 79th... He was an amazing human being.

 

We were hungry so we went to the Olive Garden and I refused to use chopsticks because I didn't know how to use them. I was insisting on a fork and they didn't have any and I said to Kung... "It's Ok... I'll just eat my Chicken Parmigana with my hands".

 

He began to show me how to use them... While showing me... I noticed what appeared to be a small lizard crawling on his arm. After showing me... He asked me to give it a try. I asked him to show me again because I was distracted by the lizard on his arm(which turned out to be the appetizer). Kung said "When a wise man points at the moon... The imbecile examines the finger".

 

He had a lot of great sayings that way and they were right on the money.

 

It was Kung who told me that "Defense for a catcher is very very important. I asked him how he knew and he said that Gene Larkin told him and he learned it at Columbia.

[ashbury]

RB, I'm pretty certain I met the same guy in Bermidji. You sure it wasn't an Applebees you were at?

[Riverbrian]

BR, I'm pretty certain I met the same guy in Bermidji. You sure it wasn't an Applebees you were at?

 

Maybe... Did he have Red Hair? Walk with a noticeable limp and carry a Ping seven iron with him at all times?

 

He doesn't golf BTW... He uses the seven iron to find water. That would explain why he might have visited Bemidji and why he is always walking into restaurants and bathrooms.

[one_eyed_jack]

I actually said there weren't good ways to quantify many aspects of catching. So do I want to have good defensive catcher metrics? Yes. Am I claiming good defensive catcher metrics exist? No. That's the difference here. I recognize that I don't know how important those "very very important" attributes are. I may have an opinion on those things but that's all it is, an opinion, until there is a good way to quantify defensive catching.

 

On the other hand Riverbrian is making a definitive claim that defensive catching is knowable and that it is "very very important".

 

---Do you think team chemistry is important? And if so, what metrics are you using to quantify it so as to support your position?

[one_eyed_jack]

It is amazing how much time is spent on here talking about backup catchers when we have a team that lost 195 games over the last two years. Don't you think we have bigger problems?

 

 

---This.

 

We had a good defensive backup catcher who couldn't hit. And there was non-stop squawking about him.

 

Now we have a backup catcher who can hit, but isn't very good defensively. And there's squawking about that.

 

Yes, it would be lovely to have a well-rounded backup catcher. But if a guy is really good both at the plate and behind it, then he's not a backup catcher. He's starting somewhere.

[Brock Beauchamp]

It's how teh sabre-dudes are able to calculate who will make the playoffs each year before the season starts. They divide payroll by 8, add the result to 55, and presto!

 

Yeah. That's exactly how it works.

 

price paid /=/ performance received

[ashbury]

You cannot ignore an admin.

 

Can we make fun of them?

 

Because, I like making fun of them.

[ashbury]

---This.

 

You know, you and the other guy take the time to scan this thread and take further time to comment that the thread probably should not exist. So I went back and re-read it from start to finish. And I came away thinking that it was an example of what's good about TwinDaily; from a simple starting point the conversation went off onto various tangents with nuggets of value here and there. Including your extrapolation that the ideal backup is a well-paid starting catcher somewhere. So I really don't understand the need for belittling language like "squawking" from you and "bigger problems" from WS to suggest that we squelch ourselves.

[snepp]

Can we make fun of them?

 

Yes.

[ashbury]

Yes.

 

Typical. *snort*

[Oxtung]

---Do you think team chemistry is important? And if so, what metrics are you using to quantify it so as to support your position?

In most sports I do but not so much in baseball. But you are asking an opinion. I have no problems with people stating opinions. In fact my perception of team chemistry could very well be wrong. However, RB stated it as fact that catcher defense is very very important.

 

So the question that nobody has been able to answer is how do you know it is fact if there is no objective evidence to support it? Doesn't that just make it opinion too?

 

In retrospect I should have dropped out of this conversation long ago. Nothing has been gained by hammering this point. RB still feels his statement is factual and I still contend there is no way to know and he trying to pass opinion off as fact.

[Guest USAFChief]

Yeah. That's exactly how it works.

 

price paid /=/ performance received

We both know I wasn't totally serious, but since you brought it up, pig... If price paid /=/ performance received (which it doesn't, of course) then what was the point of you bringing it into the conversation? While we're on the subject...I'm skeptical of "stats" that require the simultaneous use of disclaimers, ignoring of outliers, and outright excuses, and I reserve the right to call them into question occasionally when I see them used by someone who I think should know better.

[Brock Beauchamp]

We both know I wasn't totally serious, but since you brought it up, pig... If price paid /=/ performance received (which it doesn't, of course) then what was the point of you bringing it into the conversation? While we're on the subject...I'm skeptical of "stats" that require the simultaneous use of disclaimers, ignoring of outliers, and outright excuses, and I reserve the right to call them into question occasionally when I see them used by someone who I think should know better.

 

It's a simple measuring stick. If you're getting a win from a free agent player for $3.5m, you've done pretty well for yourself because the average team spends $7-9m for each win above replacement level.

 

It was in response to Jorgens, who implied that Doumit was pricey, which he obviously is not.

[old nurse]

It's a simple measuring stick. If you're getting a win from a free agent player for $3.5m, you've done pretty well for yourself because the average team spends $7-9m for each win above replacement level.

 

 

Yout 7-9 million figure is way off. The guy at fangraphs said that fair market price was determined by players switching teams. Last year 38 position players signed with new teams. Average cost per WAR was 3.7 million. 18 of these players had a WAR above 1. Their average contract was 3 million per WAR. The WAR numbers were based solely on 2012 WAR. This would hint that if you are going to sign a free agent that you might as well get your money's worth and sign a good one. These number would also say that Doumit is a bargain at any role.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Yout 7-9 million figure is way off. The guy at fangraphs said that fair market price was determined by players switching teams. Last year 38 position players signed with new teams. Average cost per WAR was 3.7 million. 18 of these players had a WAR above 1. Their average contract was 3 million per WAR. The WAR numbers were based solely on 2012 WAR. This would hint that if you are going to sign a free agent that you might as well get your money's worth and sign a good one. These number would also say that Doumit is a bargain at any role.

 

Interesting. The number I heard was $7-9m and it came from the Tampa Bay front office, I believe.

 

I'm too lazy to look into it further. Just going from memory.

[ThePuck]

A Retrospective Look at the Price of a Win | FanGraphs Baseball

 

Positional Differences in the Price of WAR | FanGraphs Baseball

[one_eyed_jack]

You know, you and the other guy take the time to scan this thread and take further time to comment that the thread probably should not exist. So I went back and re-read it from start to finish. And I came away thinking that it was an example of what's good about TwinDaily; from a simple starting point the conversation went off onto various tangents with nuggets of value here and there. Including your extrapolation that the ideal backup is a well-paid starting catcher somewhere. So I really don't understand the need for belittling language like "squawking" from you and "bigger problems" from WS to suggest that we squelch ourselves.

 

---I never said that this thread shouldn't exist, nor did I intend to belittle anyone. I apologize if it came across that way. Nor was it a comment on TD in general, which I enjoy for the same reasons you stated.

 

In addition to the various tangents and nuggets of value you pointed out, the vast diversity of viewpoints on what constitutes appropriate conduct and decorum in these parts is fascinating.

 

Here I've been called out for the use of the word 'squawking' as belittling. Last year, when I questioned some of the racially-tinged stuff being thrown at Nishioka, I was accused of being "uppity".