Javy Baez - Baserunning Wizard

[Vanimal46]

Really good breakdown from some notable baseball writers. 
 

 

[Vanimal46]

On 5/27/2021 at 7:48 PM, Squirrel said:

I never said it was excusable. It's something that he will never live down ... because it was that bad. But to chalk it up as to ... 'Oh well, I'm still getting paid' is putting quite a spin on it and basically slashing someone's character and integrity to nil. And I don't know the guy, maybe that's who he is. But I think it's a pretty bad conclusion to make.

We’ve all had low effort days in our professional lives. Take it from a guy who’s mailed it in a time or two. I could have said it better than getting a paycheck, but that’s how I phrase a mail in day. He was not mentally aware of anything going on at that moment. Unfortunately for Will Craig, this will never go away for him. People will bring this clip up 20 years from now, similar to Randy Johnson hitting a bird with a pitch. Or Buckner’s error. Or Canseco’s error off his head for a HR. 

[Vanimal46]

On 5/27/2021 at 9:56 PM, spycake said:

Do we really see batters run back toward home? I think that was rare enough that it affected the first baseman.

And after that, his teammates (catcher, 2nd baseman) were in turn affected by the first baseman’s doubt.

The Cubs runner from second didn’t do much that was particularly remarkable, other than perhaps being the only guy who acted like there were two outs and a third out was imminent.

If he was aware how many outs there were, what the base runner does shouldn’t matter at all. Shouldn’t he be the one laughing hysterically as he walks back to the bag? What we should get out of this is so many players are woefully unprepared to execute basic fundamentals of the game. 

[Otto von Ballpark]

14 hours ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

I was hoping you'd come through with the rule on whether tagging a batter-runner before batter-runner gets to first base counts as a force out at the bag, or whether it counts as a tag play, and if the run counts if the runner scores before the tag  . Or even better, does the run score if the runner runs backwards past home plate, where it is apparently an automatic out, with two outs, or if the same play happens with less than two outs

Any way the batter is retired while forced to advance, whether tag or touching the base or otherwise, would have nullified the run. So a tag would have worked the same as touching first in this case. Only Baez safely reaching first would allow the run to count.

Note that tag up / appeal plays are different from force plays — a runner on third could tag and score before another runner gets doubled off on a fly ball — but obviously that wasn’t the case here.

[ashbury]

As I watch the replay of this for the hundredth time, I find myself wondering - would our first baseman have fallen for Baez's Rope-A-Dope? I'm thinking, "quite possibly, yes".

[AceWrigley]

I wonder if the Cubs bench jockeys were yelling for Craig to throw the ball to the catcher. If Craig just holds the ball he then tags Baez, but then he quickly decides to toss the ball to the catcher to tag out the runner coming home from 3B. Maybe he thought the Pirates were coaching him to do that when it was really the Cubs egging him on. I really liked how the Pirates ensued to throw the ball all over the place and the announcer urging Baez to keep on running. Awesome.

[Squirrel]

12 hours ago, Vanimal46 said:

What we should get out of this is so many players are woefully unprepared to execute basic fundamentals of the game. 

We should? I think that's a huge assumption and generalization to make from one play. I mean, your statement could be true, but that play alone wouldn't bring me to that conclusion.

I think it's what it is ... a huge lapse. And Buckner, if he were still alive, would probably say, 'Oh, thank God ... maybe now people will forget my boo boo.' Although, Buckner's 'boo boo' cost his team the championship.

[ashbury]

22 minutes ago, Squirrel said:

Although, Buckner's 'boo boo' cost his team the championship.

Um, the score was tied, so da Sawx don't walk off with a win if he makes the routine play. They also had a 3-0 lead through the fifth, the next day. Plenty of blame to go around.

[Squirrel]

1 minute ago, ashbury said:

Um, the score was tied, so da Sawx don't walk off with a win if he makes the routine play. They also had a 3-0 lead through the fifth, the next day. Plenty of blame to go around.

No, one player's gaffe ... the result then is all on him. Nope. It was Buckner's fault, his boo boo, all his to bear. (/s)

[ashbury]

Just now, Squirrel said:

No, one player's gaffe ... the result then is all on him. Nope. It was Buckner's fault, his boo boo, all his to bear. (/s)

You really should move to Boston. You'd fit right in!

[Squirrel]

Just now, ashbury said:

You really should move to Boston. You'd fit right in!

I live in Chicago ... Bartman is the sole reason the Cubs lost in 2008, so ... yeah, but now we are digressing.

[Brock Beauchamp]

2 hours ago, ashbury said:

As I watch the replay of this for the hundredth time, I find myself wondering - would our first baseman have fallen for Baez's Rope-A-Dope? I'm thinking, "quite possibly, yes".

Very possible. I suspect the more a player has played away from first base, as Sano has, the more likely they are to get suckered into this trick. A natural first baseman would just go to the bag 99.9999999999999% of the time, as they’re likely on autopilot in that situation. 

[joefish]

I thought runners could not return towards home. If Baez had touched home plate, would any other call have been made then? 

That play was a first ever for me. Never saw it before. 

[ashbury]

I can't seem to reply without getting the embedded video, but wanted to pass along some comments from Stew Thornley about the play. He posted to the SABR email list, and I am reproducing his comments here with permission. He's not directly addressing the question Hosken raised, but it seems pertinent.

 

The scoring on the goofy play in the Cubs-Pirates game now is E3 with an
assist to the third baseman, no RBI, and E2 for the advancement of Baez
from first to second.

I'm sure we can hash over this interpretation or the original one - FC,
RBI, E2 for additional advancement - but I'm impressed with the process
and how Bob Webb, the official scorer, contacted Elias and what the
Elias folks took into account for their final decision.

An issue determined in this is there was no longer a fielder's choice in
the usual sense in that Willson Contreras, who was on second, had
already advanced to third and was then trying to stretch that.  It's a
matter of combining 9.05(b)(3), which addresses a preceding runner
advancing one base or returning to his original base, and 9.05(b)(4),
which does not address the matter of a preceding runner already
advancing a base.

Like I say, I'm sure many will argue on how it should be scored and go
ahead and have fun in doing so.  My thing is that the process involving
the scorer and Elias Sports Bureau was good.

20 hours ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

Yeah, I think we do see it, even at MLB level. Rundowns between home and first do happen. But as you say, it's rare. 

I was hoping you'd come through with the rule on whether tagging a batter-runner before batter-runner gets to first base counts as a force out at the bag, or whether it counts as a tag play, and if the run counts if the runner scores before the tag  . Or even better, does the run score if the runner runs backwards past home plate, where it is apparently an automatic out, with two outs, or if the same play happens with less than two outs (paging @stewthornley)

For the rules geeks still reading, here's a play from NCAA where a botched run down had a huge impact. Looks like the player was originally called out--they must have had replay review. (Video at bottom of article, skip to 3:56) 

 

 

[AceWrigley]

I'm just tacking on here but Javy Baez is one of the reason to go see a baseball game. He's one of the most exciting players in baseball and can beat you on any given play in any given way. Very talented, very creative.

[stewthornley]

In June 1973 I was at an Angels-Twins game.  Richie Scheinblum was on first with no or one out when Ken Berry hit a squibber down the first-base line.  Joe Decker fielded it and was about to tag Berry, but Berry turned and beat cheeks the other way, running across the plate and beyond.  Scheinblum was going to second on the play anyway, and I think Berry was being intentionally comical.  I recall the newspaper story saying Berry was out as soon as he crossed the plate.  I'm not sure if that's correct or if it was when he was beyond home, abandoning the basepath.  It was a funny play with no effect - unlike the Will Craig brainfart.

[TheLeviathan]

Whoa did this thread go off the rails!

Javy Baez running back to home seems like the baseball equivalent of running at a grizzly bear screaming your head off and waving your hands around.  There is no rational reason for the grizzly to be scared of you.  It's not being lazy and cashing it's bear check.  It just gets so disoriented by your brazen lunacy it forgets itself.

Will Craig got duped by a bat-**** crazy move that was so off the wall it removed all logic and fundamentals from the equation.  

[Otto von Ballpark]

16 hours ago, stewthornley said:

I recall the newspaper story saying Berry was out as soon as he crossed the plate.  I'm not sure if that's correct or if it was when he was beyond home, abandoning the basepath.

Thanks for the story, Stew.

I’ve read that a baserunner can’t be out for leaving the basepath unless the defense is making a play to put them out. So a player could starting walking toward their dugout if they assumed they were put out or the inning was ending, but they could return to their base if they realized that was incorrect.

[stewthornley]

At some point they will be called out for abandoning the basepath, too.  Meanwhile, the great J. W. Gregory cited 9.12(a)(3) about charging an error to a fielder who catches a thrown ball or ground ball in time to put out the batter-runner and fails to tag first or the batter-runner.

[ashbury]

2 hours ago, stewthornley said:

At some point they will be called out for abandoning the basepath, too.  Meanwhile, the great J. W. Gregory cited 9.12(a)(3) about charging an error to a fielder who catches a thrown ball or ground ball in time to put out the batter-runner and fails to tag first or the batter-runner.

I cited it first.