Cruz, Ramos, Cahill, and Soria

[Vanimal46]

If their revenue was $375M which would equate to the team being roughly the same amount above average in revenue, would we be satisfied with them spending the average?

I'd be happy with them spending 51% of revenue on the payroll like St. Peter discussed years ago. Amazing how that 51% number isn't discussed by Twins' brass anymore. Because they haven't been close to spending to that number.

[Dman]

 

There are 30 teams.

 

Yeah my bad.  That does make it look a little worse.  Looking at how the teams spend in our division though it seems we are right there with all of them.  Payroll varies for all the teams and it seems like teams go higher once a core is place. 

 

Thanks for setting me straight. I got confused when I looked at MLB draft order and saw 32 teams.  I didn't look close enough to realize some teams got an extra pick because they didn't sign their guy last year.

[Dman]

 

I'd be happy with them spending 51% of revenue on the payroll like St. Peter discussed years ago. Amazing how that 51% number isn't discussed by Twins' brass anymore. Because they haven't been close to spending to that number.

 

It would be nice to know more about the financials.  Owners have to be making decent money.  All I know or can see is that currently the teams in our division seem to be spending at about the same rate as the Twins.  Cleveland has been trying to shed payroll after spending 140M last year.  The White Sox have spent the least out of all the teams in or division the last three years.  Other than last year it looks like the Twins spent the second least the last three years and the Twins are dead last if you go back ten years, but remember KC, Detroit and Cleveland were all battling for the division and wild card in those years so were likely maximizing spending to get there.  When the White Sox were competitive they spent a lot more too.  In the end it is tough to defend the FO on spending as the numbers are the numbers.

 

 I am torn about how to feel about the payroll situation without more information and seeing where payroll is for all the teams in our division it seems hard to get too worked up over it.

 

FWIW my number that I gave earlier of 131M was opening day payroll for the Twins.  Looking at other sites it looks in the end that number was more like 115M.  Not sure if I am reading that correctly but they did dump Phils Hughs salary and made several trades at the deadline so maybe they did recoup some of that money back.  FWIW 100M seem like the Twins magic number.  That seems to be about where they have been the last ten years or so.  That number does seem to be below our division rivals on average but those numbers are skewed by the fact that we haven't had a team really worth going all in for. 

[Vanimal46]

Revenues have exploded over the last 4-5 years. Teams are getting revenue streams from things that simply did not exist, like streaming, MLB partnerships with media companies, etc.

 

Would we even agree to funding Target Field if we knew back in 2007 that the team would spend at an identical level compared to the rest of the league while we were in the Metrodome?

[old nurse]

 

When the 2017 budget was constructed, the twins were coming off a 103 loss season in 2016. Therefore, it would stand to reason they would not maximize their budget in 2017. One could argue the Twins were still not serious contenders in 2018. However, the Twins FO took an optimistic approach and constructed a roster with the highest payroll in team history.

 

The revenue part of this post is a mess. For starters, I did not say TV revenue, I said revenue. I don’t know the context of St Peter’s statement but there is no form of business (including non-profit) where revenue does not dictate relative ability to spend.  The position the Twins should spend equivalent to the average MLB still team still only makes sense if their revenue is average. Whatever St Peter had to say has nothing to do with the validity of this equation. If their revenue was $375M which would equate to the team being roughly the same amount above average in revenue, would we be satisfied with them spending the average?

To get to league average for revenue the Twins would have to be selling out every game and nearly double the per fan revenue Selling out every game at current revenues per fan would increase revenue by 40 million.  The new factor of Target Field has long worn off. Consistent division winning baseball would not be enough.

[Mike Sixel]

How about league median payroll?

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

The revenue part of this post is a mess.

All I stated was that television revenue did not impede spending, per St. Peter.

 

Seriously, what’s a mess about that?

[Major League Ready]

 

How about league median payroll?

 

Why would it make any more sense that a team with less than average income spend the mid-point of payroll distribution as compared to the league average?

[Mike Sixel]

 

Why would it make any more sense that a team with less than average income spend the mid-point of payroll distribution as compared to the league average?

 

Are we sure they don't have league median income? And, I guess it's a decision about how much profit (not if profit) you want, vs how much you want to win. We get it, you are all about capital over labor, and profit over winning. That's your right, certainly, but not everyone agrees with you.

[Major League Ready]

 

All I stated was that television revenue did not impede spending, per St. Peter.

Seriously, what’s a mess about that?

 

Because I stated that it makes no sense to expect a team with below average revenue to spend at the league average. This is as simple as it comes so to refute the logic based on something St. Peter said about TV revenue (not total revenue) is a mess. I would add that the premise revenue does not impact ability to spend is beyond Naive. I would hope St. Peter does not think Twins fans are this stupid. That's why it's a mess. I sincerely hope this was taken out of context.

[Major League Ready]

 

To get to league average for revenue the Twins would have to be selling out every game and nearly double the per fan revenue Selling out every game at current revenues per fan would increase revenue by 40 million.  The new factor of Target Field has long worn off. Consistent division winning baseball would not be enough.

 

The Diamondbacks new TV contract is about double their old contract as I recall. I think they went from 35 or 40M to 75M/year. There is hope they could get to league average. It's a long / LONG way from the 8.5B contract the Dodgers signed but that contract is by far the highest in MLB.

[Major League Ready]

 

Are we sure they don't have league median income? And, I guess it's a decision about how much profit (not if profit) you want, vs how much you want to win. We get it, you are all about capital over labor, and profit over winning. That's your right, certainly, but not everyone agrees with you.

 

I would absolutely love it if the Pohlads decided to operate at break even. I just understand they are running a business. What about the teams that are making 4X the net profit as the twins, like the Redsox, Yankees, and Dodgers, for example. Do they on;y care about profit?

 

The premise of relative spending matching relative revenue is about as simple as it gets. If you want to ignore this simple premise just as you ignore all of the facts I have presented, that is your right as well.

[Vanimal46]

To get to league average for revenue the Twins would have to be selling out every game and nearly double the per fan revenue Selling out every game at current revenues per fan would increase revenue by 40 million. The new factor of Target Field has long worn off. Consistent division winning baseball would not be enough.

They could play in front of 0 people at Target Field this year and still make a handsome profit. Attendance numbers have never been this much of a non-factor before in profitability. The Pohlads are making plenty from national TV contracts, MLB partnerships, streaming, etc. Some continue to pretend the Twins are the kid brother to the rest of the MLB. There's absolutely nothing holding this team back from being a league average spending team. Besides a self-imposed budget number set by the owner.

[Mike Sixel]

I would absolutely love it if the Pohlads decided to operate at break even. I just understand they are running a business. What about the teams that are making 4X the net profit as the twins, like the Redsox, Yankees, and Dodgers, for example. Do they on;y care about profit?

 

The premise of relative spending matching relative revenue is about as simple as it gets. If you want to ignore this simple premise just as you ignore all of the facts I have presented, that is your right as well.

The red Sox just won the world series, and the other two were two of the five best teams in baseball. Yes, they have more money, but that's not the point at all. The Twins could spend more, they choose not to. Heck, they sold a draft pick, to save money. They just don't care about winning all that much, assuming actions speak loudly.

[Mike Sixel]

I'm pretty sure they were around league median last year, so it's a choice... When the season started, not after the trades. They were 16th, or exactly median..... So, it's a choice.

[jorgenswest]

According to Forbes the Twins were 21st in revenue in 2017. I would guess a similar position this year.

[Vanimal46]

I'm pretty sure they were around league median last year, so it's a choice... When the season started, not after the trades. They were 16th, or exactly median..... So, it's a choice.

90% of league average marketed as "The Most Money we've ever spent!!1!"

[Dman]

 

According to Forbes the Twins were 21st in revenue in 2017. I would guess a similar position this year.

 

That makes sense to me as that is close to where they have been spending the last ten years or so.  Some years a little more some a little less.  Last year was an aberration at 130M and in the end they only ended up spending 115M.  100M seems be their wheelhouse.  When we have a good team I sure hope they are willing to in that 130 to 140 range.  It has been a tough eight years.  Don't want to have to go through this again anytime soon.

[old nurse]

 

The Diamondbacks new TV contract is about double their old contract as I recall. I think they went from 35 or 40M to 75M/year. There is hope they could get to league average. It's a long / LONG way from the 8.5B contract the Dodgers signed but that contract is by far the highest in MLB.

Any amount of increase in a local television deal the Twins would see 1% of it. The Twins will see a revenue increase of 1 million or so from Arizona. It would take a lot more deals to get the revenue over 300 million.

[Dman]

 

The idiots over at Forbes estimated the Twins profits at 26 million, gate receipts at 70 million, then there is the revenue from concessions. Minnesota is an easy state for them to peg fan revenue from as everything is taxed and a public record for the taxes collected. The local television contract  reportedly runs through 2023. For the short term the only way the Twins increase revenue is by other teams having their television contracts increase  like the about 2 million from St Louis, or the local stadium.

 

Sounds pretty accurate to me.  We wouldn't be getting a supplemental 1st round pick if were weren't one of the ten lowest revenue generators in baseball.  Still that's a pretty nice amount of take home pay along with the value of the team going up the Pohlads have gotten an incredible ROI for investing in the Twins.  They have to feel fortunate the team didn't get contracted in 2000 as they have likely made another 1.5 billion by hanging onto the team (i.e napkin math, 2002 franchise worth 127M 2018 worth 1.1 Billion for a gain of about 1 Billion.  Approximately 20 years at 25M per year profit another 500M)  

 

They have done well so I hope when we have a team with a young core in place it would be nice if ownership would step up and put some real skin in the game and at the very least move payroll into the 140 to 150 range.

[Major League Ready]

 

Any amount of increase in a local television deal the Twins would see 1% of it. The Twins will see a revenue increase of 1 million or so from Arizona. It would take a lot more deals to get the revenue over 300 million.

 

You will need to elaborate. If they signed a new contract with Fox Sports North or a new provider or bought into a partnership like half of the league why would they only get 1% of the increase they negotiated. Where does the other 99% go?

[old nurse]

 

You will need to elaborate. If they signed a new contract with Fox Sports North or a new provider or bought into a partnership like half of the league why would they only get 1% of the increase they negotiated. Where does the other 99% go?

All of the local television contracts are revenue shared. . I think it was 31% goes into the community pot and shared by each team.  Hence the 1%, considering the league office keeps a share for their expenses. The raise in revenue for the Twins after the first season in Target Field is easily attributed to the other television contracts going up. A million from Arizona, A million from the Cardinals. A couple million from the Phillies. . It adds up. in addition to the big bump in the national contract.

[amjgt]

If teams weren’t making significant profits, their franchise value wouldn’t increase by 6x over 15 years.

 

My guess is that they could spend $175M on payroll and still turn a profit. That’s not me saying they SHOULD spend that much, just that the idea that they are capped out at $130M is a bit silly

[amjgt]

Also, look at the Cardinals as an example of a franchise that realized long ago that good teams make more revenue. Fans and TV audiences aren’t going to magically start showing up the exact moment the team is decent. There’s a lag. So, there might be a couple leaner years (in terms of profitability) before those fans start showing back up. But they aren’t going to show back up if you’re never very good. The Cardinals have done a wonderful job of maintaining a strong team and never experiencing a lag. If they see one potentially coming, they spend their way out of it. That’s why a team in a significantly smaller media market can continually outspend the Twins.

 

If it’s accurate that the local TV contract is up in 2023, ownership should probably start thinking about that ramp up now if they want to maximize the value of that contract.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Pohlad surely wants to enjoy a low-payroll season with Mauer's payment off the ledger, and I can almost understand and forgive him for it , but he's going to have to put some skin back in the game again real soon, as the above poster said.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

That's true of any investment.

It'd be practically impossible for them to find a bigger return on investment than they've gotten from owning the Twins.

turning 48 mil into 1bil plus in 30 years. I’m not sure Amazon would have been better considering the comparative low price point