Capital punishment

[Badsmerf]

I'm sure there are opinions on this, so I'm interested in them. Nebraska just executed someone today, for murdering 2 people Albus 40 years ago. He's been in jail that long. I know nothing about this guy, other than he committed the crimes at 21 and was injected with fentanyl.

 

So finally we got around to this guy's execution after 40 years. Why did it take so long to go through with this? I don't think that is fair to all someone to live 40 on death row. That is a lot of money for tax payers to ultimately just execute him. Then I have to wonder, if those crimes are worth are executing. My stance on a lot of issues had migrated over the years, and this might be another example.

 

I get not wanting to pay to incarcerate people, but I have to wonder if we'd feel the same way if there were less non violent criminals in our system.

[TheLeviathan]

In general, I'm not a fan.  I think our criminal justice system is built, at least partially, on the idea of redemption.

 

We need to do a better job enabling that in a number of ways, but eliminating capital punishment should be one of those steps IMO.

[Mike Sixel]

In general, I am also not a fan. It's too easy to kill the wrong person.

 

OTOH.....there may be times it makes sense.

[Badsmerf]

I officially hate typing on my phone, sorry for the typos. I also think there are times it makes sense... but I'm not sure this was one of them. I really don't know where the line should be, but there just has to be a better way most of the time.

[TheLeviathan]

When do you guys see it as making sense?  What sort of situations?

[Squirrel]

When do you guys see it as making sense? What sort of situations?

Psychopathic serial killer?

[PseudoSABR]

 

Psychopathic serial killer?

What if such a condition is born out of her/his biology (if not her/his circumstance)?

 

I think we need to account for and work to encompass such personalities. Put another way: cut the crazies off at the pass--anticipate them.    

[Squirrel]

What if such a condition is born out of her/his biology (if not her/his circumstance)?

 

I think we need to account for and work to encompass such personalities.  Put another way: cut the crazies off at the pass.

 

Yeah, I used a question mark because I’m not sure there’s an answer to that question. Not that I don’t think there is never a situation where capital punishment might be the answer, I’m just not sure when and where.

[PseudoSABR]

 

Yeah, I used a question mark because I’m not sure there’s an answer to that question. Not that I don’t think there is never a situation where capital punishment might be the answer, I’m just not sure when and where.

I wouldn't hold you to anything; and I'm just testing the waters of conversation (answering your question in my almost-confrontational way).  

[Squirrel]

I wouldn't hold you to anything; and I'm just testing the waters of conversation (answering your question in my almost-confrontational way).  

Heh, well, confrontation is really only confrontation if I had a more sure answer. I don’t so I’m open to ideas. In theory I’m against capital punishment for fear of executing an innocent person. But I suppose there could be a situation where that might be the answer. I’m just not sure what, where and how.

[gunnarthor]

I'm pretty anti-death penalty. In law school I wrote a paper on how it was unconstitutional to execute 16 & 17 year olds and a few years later, the Supreme Court agreed. I'm still pissed that I only got an A- on that paper.

 

In any event, there are lots of reasons to oppose the death penalty - it doesn't lead to less crime, it's costly, innocent people get killed by the state, it conflicts with the idea of rehabitation, it's racist in its use, etc - and only one reason to support it - revenge. 

[ashbury]

In any event, there are lots of reasons to oppose the death penalty - it doesn't lead to less crime, it's costly, innocent people get killed by the state, it conflicts with the idea of rehabitation, it's racist in its use, etc - and only one reason to support it - revenge. 

What's your stance on life imprisonment without parole? I think most of the arguments you raised apply there too. And from the society's point of view the life is essentially expunged either way.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I used to be pretty neutral on the death penalty. Not really in favor of it but if the state determined someone irredeemable and wanted to put them to death, I wasn't going to get too worked up about it.

 

But over the years, we've shown that it doesn't work as a crime deterrent. It doesn't really save money as far as I know, either, due to the lengthy and rigorous appeal process (which should be in place for this type of situation).

 

And then Texas started getting it wrong in their eagerness to execute people.

 

After I started compiling those various ideas, I was left with one question:

 

Why are we doing this, what gain do we receive on a personal and/or societal level by executing violent criminals? It doesn't deter future crimes. It doesn't really save the government any money.

 

I'm left with one answer: revenge. And that's a horse**** reason to kill someone, especially if you weren't personally affected by the violent crimes that led to the execution (which applies to 99.99% of the people out there).

 

And that leaves a pretty awful taste in my mouth.

[Badsmerf]

I need to do some research on this topic. I read an article on capital punishment in the last few years that was well done... which makes me think it was 538, but don't quote me on that.

 

I also don't feel it is a deterrent, effective, or saves cost. I really wish criminal justice reform was a more important platform for this country. I would have been behind the death penalty for Charles Manson....

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I would have been behind the death penalty for Charles Manson....

I think most reasonable people feel that way.

 

The problem arises when you open the door to capital punishment at all. It may be impossible to open the door to execute the Mansons of the world while not abusing the system to the point where we get to executing children and/or single homicides.

[Badsmerf]

I think most reasonable people feel that way.

 

The problem arises when you open the door to capital punishment at all. It may be impossible to open the door to execute the Mansons of the world while not abusing the system to the point where we get to executing children and/or single homicides.

Very true. I think it is being abused as is. The cases that I believe would qualify, are cases that the crimes are so terrible, and the people convicted have no chance of ever qualifying for parol or being released into the public. There are probably a handful of times a decade that qualify. In other words, people of the Charles Manson ilk. That is a pretty high bar, and I don't know how you could create a legal precedent for that.

[Mr. Brooks]

There are some people that are just predators, and can't be rehabilitated, period.

 

They will continue to be predators in prison, so I disagree that revenge is the only reason for the death penalty.

How do we protect other prisoners, and prison staff from these people?

 

That doesn't necessarily mean I support the death penalty though.

I'm not sure. It's so complex, I go back and forth on it.

Some cases are so disturbing and horrific, it's hard to read the details and not crave a death sentence.

[ashbury]

I really wish criminal justice reform was a more important platform for this country.

Be careful what you wish for. A sizable percentage of our country would like to see it more draconian in general, not less.

[PseudoSABR]

 

Be careful what you wish for. A sizable percentage of our country would like to see it more draconian in general, not less.

There's also bipartisan support (or at least there was during the last administration) for a number of cost-saving (which also happen to be ethical) reforms. 

[Mike Sixel]

I'm not sure how keeping someone in jail forever is better than letting them die. Serial rapists and murderers, that will never get out of jail.......why should we pay for them to be locked up for 40 years? That's one of the questions I ask myself. 

 

At a minimum, we should allow those types to choose to die, if they want.

 

I am more likely to answer that question.....because it is wrong to kill someone, but I am sometimes thinking that society gets nothing out of keeping them alive, nor do they get anything. Then I remember that is wrong to kill, other than self defense....

 

So, ya, I am nearly always going to say it should not happen, but there are days I flip to the other side.

[gunnarthor]

 

What's your stance on life imprisonment without parole? I think most of the arguments you raised apply there too. And from the society's point of view the life is essentially expunged either way.

Generally against it as well. There should be a system in place that reviews a person's progress at rehabilitation and make determinations about whether they should be released. There was some momentum on our side 10-15 years ago on this but the conservative Supreme Court isn't going to curtail LWP. And no politician wins on sensible criminal justice reform. So, we're stuck with it for now.

 

 

[Mike Sixel]

 

Generally against it as well. There should be a system in place that reviews a person's progress at rehabilitation and make determinations about whether they should be released. There was some momentum on our side 10-15 years ago on this but the conservative Supreme Court isn't going to curtail LWP. And no politician wins on sensible criminal justice reform. So, we're stuck with it for now.

 

you'd trust a serial rapist or murderer to reform and not be a threat to society? What about the person that commits armed robbery, gets out, and does it again and again? At some point, it should be fairly clear that some people will not change.

[Craig Arko]

So, I think the more is learned about cognitive neuroscience, the greater the chances the root causes of the (criminal) behavior can be understood, and perhaps treated. At some point criminal justice systems need to be better informed about this. There is a strong need for reform not just in the U.S., but globally.

 

Having said this, there are a few politicians around that sometimes make me long for a return of Madame la Guillotine. But I suppose not.

 

 

[PseudoSABR]

 

you'd trust a serial rapist or murderer to reform and not be a threat to society? What about the person that commits armed robbery, gets out, and does it again and again? At some point, it should be fairly clear that some people will not change.

We need to at least create institutions that can foster the possibility of reform for even those who have committed atrocious crimes.  And I think we need to develop means other than incarceration of separating dangerous people from the masses.   What such institutions and methods look like, I'm not sure, but I believe we can do a much better job of dealing with this particular problem than locking them up and throwing away the key.

 

Much of my thinking is premised that the majority of atrocious crimes are born out of mental illness and trauma, and not because some people are simply evil.  There may be people who are incapable of reform, but I think that number is probably smaller than we believe, especially if we're willing to understand and treat the root causes of their criminal/dangerous behavior. 

[gunnarthor]

 

you'd trust a serial rapist or murderer to reform and not be a threat to society? What about the person that commits armed robbery, gets out, and does it again and again? At some point, it should be fairly clear that some people will not change.

Sure, but that's not the issue. Parole doesn't mean you always get it. It means you have a chance to get it. Review boards would look into a variety of factors before releasing someone. Many people aren't ever released. But a system that says "no release, ever" is broken. That's why I hate the three strikes laws (incredibly racist in practice) as well.

 

Ideally, our criminal justice system would be far more effort into rehabilitation and less on punishment - especially in the drugs context. 

[TheLeviathan]

 

Psychopathic serial killer?

 

See, for me, the only example I'd consider is child molester.  Based on data we have about recidivisim, they are the worst.  And in Minnesota we are battling that very issue with due process and keeping people in "treatment" that looks an awful lot more like imprisonment.

 

I'm with gunnathor, we need to do more than just imprison.  Prisons themselves tend to make people worse than actually rehabilitate them.  Of course....rehab ain't cheap either.

[Mike Sixel]

No one is arguing we don't need reform....but that's not the discussion here. Of course we need reforms, lots of them.

[Squirrel]

 

See, for me, the only example I'd consider is child molester.  Based on data we have about recidivisim, they are the worst.  And in Minnesota we are battling that very issue with due process and keeping people in "treatment" that looks an awful lot more like imprisonment.

 

I'm with gunnathor, we need to do more than just imprison.  Prisons themselves tend to make people worse than actually rehabilitate them.  Of course....rehab ain't cheap either.

Yeah ... see my response to pseudo after I said that ... I used the question mark because I really don't have an answer. As I've also said, in theory I'm against capital punishment, but I could see that there might be a reason for it, but really don't have any concrete idea of just what and when. It scares me how it's been used in the past, and that has made me very outspoken in the past against. But, as I said, there could be a reason ... I just don't know what and when that would be, just that I'd be open to ideas and discussion.

[USMCTwin]

I'm afraid I'm probably really hypocritical on this. In general I oppose the death penalty. I don't really know how I can say I'm pro-life and not be. However, if something sinister happened to one of my children I fear I would want justice in the form of death, whether that is justice or not. I can't quite reconcile it in my mind, but there are a few cases a year where I wish for the death penalty even though I'm opposed to capital punishment. I get that life without parole has no redeeming value, but I also can't stand the thought of putting family through letting the rapist/murderer walk because we have deemed them changed. I struggle with this issue a lot and have not come to grips with even how I feel.

 

As an aside Netflix has a series called I Am a Killer that they recently added interviewing people who committed murder and the first episode is about a guy who literally says he killed a guy in prison to get put on death row because he couldn't stand living in prison any longer. It caused me to have even more conflicted feelings on all of it. I actually felt sympathy for the guy because our legal system had failed him at so many turns.

[TheLeviathan]

 

No one is arguing we don't need reform....but that's not the discussion here. Of course we need reforms, lots of them.

 

No, I don't think anyone is.  But the issue of what prison should look like sort of naturally weaves into this discussion.  Otherwise we're left with the question you correctly asked about the difference between life imprisonment and death.  And I have no better answer to that than I do the larger issue - "it's complicated"