Souhan on the Twins

[Mr. Brooks]

I would agree to the extent that it enrages me when he decides to leave an obviously tottering starter in a game, watches him give up a walk, line drive single, then a HR, and THEN decides to remove him, mid-inning.

 

If you thought the guy had enough to start the inning, but he loses the game, well, then let him at least finish the inning. If the guy can't finish the inning, he never should have come out for it in the first place.

 

I will say, though, that I don't think innings from starters is a huge factor in the Twins pitching problems. Few if any teams get consistent 6-7-8 inning starts any more. Where the difference lies is those teams bring in reliever after reliever that are often able to pitch a quick inning. Those guys then take a day or two off, and come back and do it again.

 

The Twins main problem is they only have a couple guys trustworthy enough to pitch in close games, and they get overused, and the other guys can't get through an inning consistently, so they get overused as well.

Speaking for myself, I don't mean in a close game, when you have to decide whether to try to get a couple more outs in the middle innings.

I'm referring to when the starter puts you in a 6-1 hole after 3 innings, and is at 60 pitches. While not impossible to come back and win, you're probably a 20:1 dog at that point. Rather than burn up the bullpen in a game you probably can't win anyway, I'd like to see Molitor let the starter eat 2 or 3 innings, since he won't be needed for 5 more days anyway, and save your pen for a more winnable situation.

[Mike Sixel]

Speaking for myself, I don't mean in a close game, when you have to decide whether to try to get a couple more outs in the middle innings.

I'm referring to when the starter puts you in a 6-1 hole after 3 innings, and is at 60 pitches. While not impossible to come back and win, you're probably a 20:1 dog at that point. Rather than burn up the bullpen in a game you probably can't win anyway, I'd like to see Molitor let the starter eat 2 or 3 innings, since he won't be needed for 5 more days anyway, and save your pen for a more winnable situation.

Agreed.

[USAFChief]

 

Speaking for myself, I don't mean in a close game, when you have to decide whether to try to get a couple more outs in the middle innings.
I'm referring to when the starter puts you in a 6-1 hole after 3 innings, and is at 60 pitches. While not impossible to come back and win, you're probably a 20:1 dog at that point. Rather than burn up the bullpen in a game you probably can't win anyway, I'd like to see Molitor let the starter eat 2 or 3 innings, since he won't be needed for 5 more days anyway, and save your pen for a more winnable situation.

concur.

[Pius Jefferson]

 

And everyone on the roster is more likely to make an out when they bat....I’m thinking this misses Souhan’s poi

 

Most everyone else can do other things for the team. Play defense well, get on base, hit for a respectable average, avoid weight related injuries.

[yarnivek1972]

Of course, there’s 60 pitches and there is 60 high stress pitches. If he’s allowed 6 runs, good chance they’re high stress. Kinda have to take it game by game.

 

The other school of thought is if you leave a struggling starter out there to “take one for the team”, you can wear out your position players having to stand on the field for long innings. Also, it sends the “white flag” message and your players may “check out” rather than trying to still compete in the game.

[Mr. Brooks]

Most everyone else can do other things for the team. Play defense well, get on base, hit for a respectable average, avoid weight related injuries.

Sano has gotten on base at a pretty good clip for his career.

[Jerr]

 

I believe saying anything negative about Sano or your perceived impressions of his attitude were reason for a sterm talking to in the other thread.

Wow, I won't text Sa-- ever again. 

 

And what did I say, other than what was in the Souhan article and others posts??? 

[TheLeviathan]

 

Speaking for myself, I don't mean in a close game, when you have to decide whether to try to get a couple more outs in the middle innings.
I'm referring to when the starter puts you in a 6-1 hole after 3 innings, and is at 60 pitches. While not impossible to come back and win, you're probably a 20:1 dog at that point. Rather than burn up the bullpen in a game you probably can't win anyway, I'd like to see Molitor let the starter eat 2 or 3 innings, since he won't be needed for 5 more days anyway, and save your pen for a more winnable situation.

 

Right, but there are psychological aspects to this as well.  You don't want your starter out there just eating outs and getting pummeled either.

 

I think this particular criticism (why is Molitor pulling awful pitchers to put in other awful pitchers?) is being mistakenly laid at the feet of the wrong person.  Seems lose-lose for the man we think is the problem, so perhaps he isn't the one to blame.

[3balls2strikes]

 

Sano and Buxton will never stay healthy enough, to rise to superstar levels. Just sad and Sano (to me) has no drive to improve physically.

 

Just really sad to me, as both of them, were so highly rated/anticipated.

 

A "down in the dumps" Twins fan here, as there is no "fire in the belly" with this team.

 

This!

[Mr. Brooks]

Right, but there are psychological aspects to this as well. You don't want your starter out there just eating outs and getting pummeled either.

 

I think this particular criticism (why is Molitor pulling awful pitchers to put in other awful pitchers?) is being mistakenly laid at the feet of the wrong person. Seems lose-lose for the man we think is the problem, so perhaps he isn't the one to blame.

I'm not blaming, or really even criticizing him for this. You are correct, if you are suggesting that neither approach is necessarily right.

 

I'm simply saying that I wish he would do that more often. I think that's a different stance than suggesting the way he does it is wrong. Just a differing philosophy on a situation that likely doesn't have a right or wrong answer.

 

As to the psychological aspect you bring up. If I have players on my team that are going to be psychologically damaged by getting shelled for a couple more innings, then I'm not sure they are the type of players i want on my ballclub.

But, alas, it's not my ballclub. So, again, that's just my differing opinion on that aspect.

[TheLeviathan]

 

As to the psychological aspect you bring up. If I have players on my team that are going to be psychologically damaged by getting shelled for a couple more innings, then I'm not sure they are the type of players i want on my ballclub.
But, alas, it's not my ballclub. So, again, that's just my differing opinion on that aspect.

 

If your 7th inning guy comes in and turns a 2-1 game into 6-1 do you just leave him in to finish the game then too?

 

I guess I just have never seen a baseball team, in any era of the game, leave guys out to get shellacked in order to spare the rest of the bullpen.  (Well, beyond the mop-up guy I guess.  But even then we put in position players often) The psychological impact of ballooning your ERA and the reaction of fans are just two of many reasons why it's never been common practice IMO.

 

I know you weren't necessarily throwing Molitor under the bus for these decisions, but it is coming up.  I'm not sure what people want Molitor to do.  I guess he could offer to forfeit, but with the way his staff is pitching we might blame him for waiting until the 5th.  Some nights he might as well do it pre-game.

[Mr. Brooks]

If your 7th inning guy comes in and turns a 2-1 game into 6-1 do you just leave him in to finish the game then too?

 

I guess I just have never seen a baseball team, in any era of the game, leave guys out to get shellacked in order to spare the rest of the bullpen. (Well, beyond the mop-up guy I guess. But even then we put in position players often) The psychological impact of ballooning your ERA and the reaction of fans are just two of many reasons why it's never been common practice IMO.

 

I know you weren't necessarily throwing Molitor under the bus for these decisions, but it is coming up. I'm not sure what people want Molitor to do. I guess he could offer to forfeit, but with the way his staff is pitching we might blame him for waiting until the 5th. Some nights he might as well do it pre-game.

Well that's not remotely the same thing. When you pull your 7th inning guy, you might be able to use him tomorrow. Or the next day. Or the day after that.

 

Your starter is waiting 5 days before he pitches again, whether you pull him at 60, or leave him in for 115.

 

When you leave your 7th inning guy in, you aren't actually saving any innings from your bullpen. Just allocating them differently.

 

I also don't believe you've done enough research to know whether other managers sometimes leave their starters in to eat more innings in these circumstances, or not.

 

If a guy on my team cares more about his ERA than helping the team, then I'd tell that player to go play an individual sport.

[TheLeviathan]

I also don't believe you've done enough research to know whether other managers sometimes leave their starters in to eat more innings in these circumstances, or not.

 

If a guy on my team cares more about his ERA than helping the team, then I'd tell that player to go play an individual sport.

 

You're right, I haven't heavily researched it.  I do know that common sense tells me that throwing my starters out to get shelled in lost causes has almost no upside at all.  That he's not saving wear and tear on a bad bullpen?  That's what makes Molitor a bad manager?

 

If I were a Twins fan I'd care a lot more about why we can't turn to a bullpen guy and get outs rather than why my manager didn't force my starter to burn through another 30 pitches in a lost cause.   These are replaceable, meh bullpen guys.  Replace them if they can't mop-up a game.  I don't find it a particularly valid argument to attack the manager though.

[Mr. Brooks]

You're right, I haven't heavily researched it. I do know that common sense tells me that throwing my starters out to get shelled in lost causes has almost no upside at all. That he's not saving wear and tear on a bad bullpen? That's what makes Molitor a bad manager?

 

If I were a Twins fan I'd care a lot more about why we can't turn to a bullpen guy and get outs rather than why my manager didn't force my starter to burn through another 30 pitches in a lost cause. These are replaceable, meh bullpen guys. Replace them if they can't mop-up a game. I don't find it a particularly valid argument to attack the manager though.

Well i made it extremely clear that I didn't think Molitor was a bad manager. Simply that this is an area that I disagree with him on philosophically. I guess if you don't agree with every move Molitor makes, you think he's a bad manager.

 

Before i bow out, due to it not making sense to continue arguing against things i haven't said, I'll simply say that there is no reason one can't simultaneously think that the players on the roster aren't good enough, AND that Molitor could do some things differently. It needn't be an either/or.

[TheLeviathan]

I'm sure the board would've been forgiving of Molitor had Berrios blown out his elbow on pitch 80 of a 6-1 deficit so he could save Duffey for future use.

 

Lose-Lose.  Blaming the wrong guy.

[Mr. Brooks]

I'm sure the board would've been forgiving of Molitor had Berrios blown out his elbow on pitch 80 of a 6-1 deficit so he could save Duffey for future use.

 

Lose-Lose. Blaming the wrong guy.

I guess my lack of will power is showing, since I continue to argue against things I've never said.

But, I'm quite sure I specifically said, "sometimes". Not everytime.

 

Risk Berrios future to keep a AAAA interchangeable piece like Duffey fresh? Come on Levi, you know that's not what I'm arguing for. At least be fair and take me at what I've actually said.

 

Not every situation is the same. Not every starter has the future that Berrios has, not every short start is so laborious that another 30 pitches is reasonably risking a major injury, and not every relief pitcher is as irrelevant to future, winnable games as Tyler Duffey is.

I'm not aking for a blind, blanket policy of squeezing every pitch out of every start.

I'm suggesting that sometimes he might be able to save an inning here, or two innings there.

 

And, again, not blaming Molitor. Just disagreeing with some of his BP management. I don't believe Molitor makes the top 10 list of problems on this team.

[TheLeviathan]

 

And, again, not blaming Molitor. Just disagreeing with some of his BP management. I don't believe Molitor makes the top 10 list of problems on this team.

 

That's fine, I'm glad to see that.

 

But these complaints came after a game in which Berrios was pulled and the bulk of the mop-up was done by Magill and Duffey.  I guess I'd rather play it safe with Berrios and throw guys like that out there all day long in a game that everyone seems to agree was already over.

[Otto von Ballpark]

FWIW, I think most modern starts fall in the 90-100 pitch count range, as opposed to past generations where starters were more often pulled with lower pitch counts when they didn't have it on a particular day. So it does seem like Molitor went against the grain a bit, in this one.

[laloesch]

Well there calling up Romero and demoting Hughes to the pen.  Let's all cross our fingers and hope he does well this year.  With the team being this bad it could be a blessing in disguise so that some of these prospects finally get their chance.  I have HIGH hopes for Romero (knock on wood).