Warne: Deeper dive into Sano allegations

[TheLeviathan]

I just want to say Jham...I really appreciate your posts in this thread.  For some reason (I would imagine the heightened focus it has in society right now is the cause...that and longstanding frustration about it) we've treated many of those accused like they are no longer allowed to be members of society.  That we have to shun them to some corner of the earth.  For some of them, that's probably warranted (Weinstein for example.  Preferably in a jail cell), but for others like Sano that seems a punishment that doesn't fit the crime.  

 

We believe drunk drivers, bank robbers, domestic abusers, child abusers, and many others are allowed to return to society and hold out hope for them to be rehabilitated, but not someone like Sano?  I get the emotions of this issue make it hard, but we really need to avoid the urge to throw away our ideas about humanity and justice just because we really care about fixing this issue.  

 

I'm rooting for justice for Betsy.  I'm rooting for her to feel good about coming out about this experience and the outcomes that result.  I'm also rooting for Miguel Sano to become a better human being.  And I will continue to root for him, when he has worked on being a better person, to be a Minnesota Twin and a success.

 

I see no reason to banish him, or my fandom, because of his action.  But I may if he can't use this opportunity to improve himself.

[Sam Morley]

 

I disagree on the privilege to play a sport and make a living. Why is a pro sport different than other professions? Should Sano be able to sell cars or insurance but not hit baseballs?
 

 

It seems to me, that if you are a player in MLB, you can be described as both an employee of an employer and as a member of a club or league. I think that while we do have rights/entitlements/protections as employees against wrongful or arbitrary termination or even exclusion, I don't think that these same or even similar rights/entitlements/protections are extended to members/prospective members of clubs/leagues. When, as in professional sports leagues, there is what appears to be a mixture of employeehood and memberhood, maybe things get more complicated. 

 

I don't think there are rights/entitlements/protections to prevent a club/league from excommunicating a member whenever it wants for whatever reasons it wants. 

 

It seems like in pro sports leagues, the only real counterbalance to this is the players unions. Aside from the little jockeying they do around the semi regular collective bargaining agreement negotiations, it seems like the only real leverage the unions have is to threaten work stoppage. Do they ever raise this club in defense of a player punished for bad behavior? Not that I can think of. The most they ever do is appeal a punishment decision. The NFLPA can't do diddly for Kaepernick who's been blackballed for speaking his mind. They couldn't do diddly for Josh Gordon who smoked weed. They didn't do anything for Ray Rice or Greg Hardy either. My point is that if a league wants you out, you're out. 

 

I would concede though that you are technically correct in that if a MLB player was disallowed membership, he could always go to a local park and hit BP and if somebody wanted to pay him to do it, he would have the right to gaining that employment. But I don't think that he is entitled to membership in MLB.

 

I've always been interested in theories of social psychology. Cognitive dissonance theory I find especially compelling and notice its influence constantly. Introducing social psychology and cognitive dissonance theory certainly advances this thread into post-modern/existential territory and very quickly makes it difficult for anyone to stand in harsh judgement against anyone else. Nice job.

[Sam Morley]

 

 

We believe drunk drivers, bank robbers, domestic abusers, child abusers, and many others are allowed to return to society and hold out hope for them to be rehabilitated, but not someone like Sano?  I get the emotions of this issue make it hard, but we really need to avoid the urge to throw away our ideas about humanity and justice just because we really care about fixing this issue.  

 

 

 

I don't think I've read anywhere here someone saying Sano should be exiled from society. I haven't said that. I think he should be indefinitely disallowed from MLB. I think the people who know him and care about him should do the best the can as they see fit to support/help him/whatever. 

 

Not being allowed to play in MLB is not the same as going to jail or being exiled from society or shunned. 

 

I hope he stops harassing and assaulting women. I hope he learns how to be a good, genuinely respectful person. I hope he finds redemption. 

 

Whether he does or not, the place to see about it should not be in MLB as a superstar for the Twins. I say this for two reasons. One: in the case he does not, the Twins and MLB have subjected more women to his dangerous behavior. Two: he just doesn't deserve it. Does he deserve another chance in society? Probably. Does he deserve another chance in MLB? No. 

 

And for me, while there is emotion in my reaction to this situation, it's measured with reason. While I am angry and disappointed, I don't think anything I've suggested is extreme or unreasonable.

 

Post Script: while we may hold out hope for the rehabilitation of domestic abusers and child abusers, our hope is almost always misplaced.

[TheLeviathan]

 

And for me, while there is emotion in my reaction to this situation, it's measured with reason. While I am angry and disappointed, I don't think anything I've suggested is extreme or unreasonable.

 

You're denying him, for these actions, from continuing his profession.  A profession not related at all to his crime.  That would be a highly unusual punishment, one I don't find particularly fair or justified.  

 

Personally, I  think it's unreasonable.  I understand your emotions and why you might personally disavow the Twins and Sano, but to insist he lose any possibility of his career over it does seem unreasonably punitive to me. 

 

If Sano worked for FedEx...would you feel he should be ex-communicated from package delivery?  I can't make any sense out of why, specifically, a professional athlete would be denied his career.

[Sam Morley]

 

You're denying him, for these actions, from continuing his profession.  A profession not related at all to his crime.  That would be a highly unusual punishment, one I don't find particularly fair or justified.  

 

Personally, I  think it's unreasonable.  I understand your emotions and why you might personally disavow the Twins and Sano, but to insist he lose any possibility of his career over it does seem unreasonably punitive to me. 

 

If Sano worked for FedEx...would you feel he should be ex-communicated from package delivery?  I can't make any sense out of why, specifically, a professional athlete would be denied his career.

 

Firstly, his actions are related to his profession. They took place while he was in his professional capacity. His behavior in Chattanooga is alleged to have occurred during games while he was in the dugout. The assault occurred while/after he was at an autograph signing session, and whether or not that is understood to be an act in representation of the Twins/MLB, the assault was against someone whose relationship to him was professional and occurred only because of his being a Twins player. I see all of the actions he is so far being accused as being directly related to his profession. I don't see how it can be disputed.

 

Also, I don't necessarily think him being disallowed from league membership has to be permanent. I just think it has to be indefinite, and I don't really think its appropriate- at this point- to speculate about what genuine rehabilitation would look like. Further, I don't really think it's punitive. I think it's consequential, and I think it's best for the prevention of future acts of violence/harassment against women who work for and are associated with the Twins/MLB. 

 

If Sano worked for company-x, he would be terminated for violation of a whole bunch policies; or company-x would be guilty of brushing *%&! under the rug. You can't sexually harass your co-workers and you can't sexually assault your customers.

[TheLeviathan]

 

If Sano worked for company-x, he would be terminated for violation of a whole bunch policies; or company-x would be guilty of brushing *%&! under the rug. You can't sexually harass your co-workers and you can't sexually assault your customers.

 

What I meant by professional related is more like how someone who is convicted of child abuse can't work at a day care. Their crime was directly related to their profession, I wouldn't say this is the case here.

 

You also used words like "Ex-communicated" from MLB, which is more than just having your company fire you.  Fed-Ex can fire you, but you can still get a job at UPS.  You're suggesting that even if the Twins fire him, that the Red Sox can't hire him.  I can't get on board with that.  It seems do deny him the ability to redeem himself and it also seems to imply that punishment needs to be indefinite.  I don't agree with either of those two implications.

[Sam Morley]

 

What I meant by professional related is more like how someone who is convicted of child abuse can't work at a day care. Their crime was directly related to their profession, I wouldn't say this is the case here.

 

You also used words like "Ex-communicated" from MLB, which is more than just having your company fire you.  Fed-Ex can fire you, but you can still get a job at UPS.  You're suggesting that even if the Twins fire him, that the Red Sox can't hire him.  I can't get on board with that.  It seems do deny him the ability to redeem himself and it also seems to imply that punishment needs to be indefinite.  I don't agree with either of those two implications.

 

As to your first point, that's a good clarification. Still, in your analogy, would a player have to sexually assault/harass a teammate or opposing player for the crime to be directly related? Aren't the female ushers at the Nooga stadium the same as other players in this regard? Ms. Bissen is either like a co-worker or a customer/client or both. 

 

I don't know, the fed-ex analogy is not working for me. It's not that it doesn't make sense, it's just a little distracting. For instance, I want to ask: if fed-ex fires you for assaulting a customer (let's say, while delivering a package to their front door) can ups hire you? Should they? I'd say they should not. I'd say if there was a league of postal/delivery organizations, it would behoove them to disallow you from membership in their league indefinitely. Ah, I feel like this analogy is having a trivializing effect.

 

If the Twins fire him, should the Red Sox hire him? I don't think they should. I think probably the league should relieve them from having to decide. 

 

I think that my most important point here is that whether or not Sano has the chance to redeem himself and whether or not he is allowed to continue his career in MLB are two separate scenarios. If Sano can redeem himself (and I can imagine- but highly doubt- scenarios in which he does) he can do so outside of MLB. I also think that by saying that Sano needs to redeem himself as a baseball player, you're acknowledging that his transgressions were committed in his capacity as a baseball player. And in this case, you may be right. Maybe in order for Sano to achieve full redemption, he would have to do it as a baseball player, and he would have to be allowed that opportunity. Maybe he doesn't achieve full redemption. I don't think he is entitled to it. I don't think we owe him the opportunity to achieve it. 

 

It sounds to me, according to the accusations, that it is him who owes; he owes his victims, he owes his fans, and he owes society. He owes remorse, extraordinary effort, and extraordinary (and rare) change. After that is accomplished (not that it's ever done) can you even consider the notion of redemption. It is here that it's worth pointing out that so far his sole statement has been one of denial and in a totally obnoxious and tone-deaf style. You want him to be granted the chance to redeem himself, but he's not even giving us the chance to give him that chance.

 

God, I wasn't going to keep going, but... doesn't that end the talk of redemption right there? He's forced everyone to take a side. He's calling his a accuser a liar. He's not saying, "I was confused, or she's confused", or some other BS, he's saying it never happened. As the public, we don't even get the chance to hope that this was some misunderstanding. You either believe her that it happened, or you believe him that it didn't. And his statement about having the "utmost respect for women", jeez. Now he went from denying an allegation (which will probably never be proven either true or false) to telling a bald lie (according to a whole bunch of people who IMMEDIATELY testified otherwise) which totally discredits his denial. 

 

So he's behaved like a jerk, committed a dangerous criminal act (suggestive of an even worse intended criminal act) and now he's lied about it. 

 

Redemption isn't in the ballpark.

[TheLeviathan]

 

 

Redemption isn't in the ballpark.

 

Well, I think that's where we disagree.  I don't think what Miguel Sano did is beyond redemption. I think there are crimes that are beyond redemption, but based on what Betsy has told us, I don't believe his actions rise to that level.

 

She deserves justice.  He deserves reprecussions.  But to punish him indefinitely seems unfairly, emotionally punitive.  I can't get behind that and I'd encourage you to rethink the implications.

[Sam Morley]

 

Well, I think that's where we disagree.  I don't think what Miguel Sano did is beyond redemption. I think there are crimes that are beyond redemption, but based on what Betsy has told us, I don't believe his actions rise to that level.

 

She deserves justice.  He deserves reprecussions.  But to punish him indefinitely seems unfairly, emotionally punitive.  I can't get behind that and I'd encourage you to rethink the implications.

 

I meant to say, "redemption isn't in the ballpark, yet." but I got distracted by the double entendre and forgot to type "yet". 

 

I think the indefinite aspect of the proposed consequence, for me, is less about being angry and heavy handed, and more about saying, "well, the duration of the suspension/expulsion is relative at a minimum to the duration of the rehabilitation." Maybe he's suspended for a year, but needs to be cleared by a psychologist before he can begin serving his suspension. 

 

And also, besides the consequential/punitive reasons for removing him, the other reason is to prevent future incidents/protect/not subject women in and around the organization to behavior that is dangerous/threatening to them. As long as he is with the Twins/MLB how do you assure the women who work for and around the Twins/MLB that they are going to be safe and free of harassment?

[TheLeviathan]

And also, besides the consequential/punitive reasons for removing him, the other reason is to prevent future incidents/protect/not subject women in and around the organization to behavior that is dangerous/threatening to them. As long as he is with the Twins/MLB how do you assure the women who work for and around the Twins/MLB that they are going to be safe and free of harassment?

 

Sounds like a "tough on crime" mentality, which is largely been proven to be a poor method.  Both for the offenders and for preventing future offenders.

 

You took umbrage earlier when I suggested you're basically trying to banish him to some island.  The more you respond, the more your tone sounds like that.  Honestly, it solves nothing for anyone.  More good can come from Miguel changing his life and baseball using him to talk to future players about how to behave.  

 

I can't get behind your reaction to this, but I respect the way you've articulated it.

[Rhino and Compass]

The most positive outcome I can imagine is the Twins undergoing a complete reexamination of themselves, and perhaps one for all of baseball. Sano has been under contract since he was 16 and under the full time employment of the Twins since he was 18. His coaches, whether they wanted to be or not, needed to function as father figures in his life. If they take that responsibility seriously, they can't just cast him aside when he is caught with his first transgression.

The easy thing to do is to say that Sano should be severely punished, and the Twins could say that Sano doesn't belong in their culture and release him, but the far more difficult thing will be acknowledging their role in the development of young men, as they transition from cocksure teenagers to public figures with extra attention and responsibility to stay out of trouble. 

The first step is for Sano to admit that he's wrong. There is enough smoke here that even if specific accounts are inaccurate, he's done something to arouse suspicion and unease. You can admit this without admitting to an actual crime or specific act. "Obviously, people have taken issue with my attitude towards women, and I need to improve". Then, make a genuine, concerted effort to learn from one's mistakes. 

The Twins need to put their foot down and make it clear that this is not something that is acceptable, but also, they have room to grow as an organization, both in terms of their treatment of female press and fans, as well as in the responsibility inherent in overseeing a workforce that is fresh out of high school, in most cases. 

Being disgusted by this is a natural reaction, and disappointment in Sano and the Twins is a natural follow up, but that isn't productive unless something changes to rectify it in the future. here's hoping the Twins try. 

[one_eyed_jack]

While I think Betsy's story and the 'me too' movement have brought to light some serious issues that need to be addressed, I'm troubled by the impulse to jump straight from accusation to conviction and sentencing.

 

It's an understandable reaction, but a dangerous one.

 

Social media mobs don't exactly have a great track record of success in solving problems.

 

 

 

[Sam Morley]

 

Sounds like a "tough on crime" mentality, which is largely been proven to be a poor method.  Both for the offenders and for preventing future offenders.

 

You took umbrage earlier when I suggested you're basically trying to banish him to some island.  The more you respond, the more your tone sounds like that.  Honestly, it solves nothing for anyone.  More good can come from Miguel changing his life and baseball using him to talk to future players about how to behave.  

 

I can't get behind your reaction to this, but I respect the way you've articulated it.

 

In the realm of political rhetoric, I really don't like the "tough on crime" mentality either. 

 

I admit that in recent years, my feelings toward crime and criminals have grown less tolerant. Still, I am fighting hard to hold onto my liberal/leftist principles.

 

I think we would both agree that some crimes warrant "tough" reactions, and some do not. 

 

I think we would both agree that it is good for everyone that as a society we seek out evidence-based best practices when it comes to reacting to crime, and to stopping and rehabilitating those who commit crimes. 

 

I think that in the case of Miguel Sano and what he so far has been accused of, our reaction, as a society probably should contain a measure of both toughness and understanding. I'm not sure what exactly that should look like- though I don't think it should have much to do with him being a baseball player for the time being. Maybe you have ideas about it. 

 

I guess, if I were to consider the reported incidents with Sano in a vacuum, I might agree with you that what I've suggested, as far as an indefinite removal from MLB, is more severe a repercussion than not (though I say this with some hesitation). But the reality is that as a society/culture we are finally beginning to confront the magnitude of the problem of sexual harassment/violence as well as our historic unwillingness/inability to deal with it.

 

I agree that aggressive, blind, emotional vilification of those accused of these actions is not helpful. I try to take stock of my own emotions before I voice my thoughts. I think in cases of sexual harassment/violence and other violence toward women, at this time in history, should be confronted with some measure of assertive toughness. I think to not do so, is to underestimate the severity and the magnitude of the problem in general. Deciding to be tough on Sano is also about deciding to be tough on our own misunderstandings, as a society/culture and as individuals, about violence and, in particular, violence against women. It's about reshaping our ideas about an aspect of our cultural psychology so that when we recognize instances (subtle or otherwise) of it in ourselves we can correct it. 

 

I think our primary disagreement, and one we may not be able to reconcile, is that you think that Sano not being allowed to be in MLB is too severe a consequence, and I don't think it is at all. I would say that at fall from greatness to averageness is not so bad as a fall from averageness to destitution. He can still have a luxurious life surrounded by his loved ones outside of baseball, he just won't get to be a children's hero anymore. 

 

One more thing, aside our disagreements, I have to say that for me this is not just about my desire to see justice, or about my concern for how Sano should be responded to. It's also about me not wanting to have to watch a sexual harasser/assaulter play baseball. I will feel like every time I watch the Twins and Sano for the Twins, I am effectively saying, "well, it bothers me what he did and who he is and the implications it carries about our culture, but it doesn't bother me enough to make me stop watching baseball." I don't want to feel like that, so I won't watch. Maybe other people don't feel that way. That makes me think I need to keep squawking until they do. 

[Craig Arko]

One more thing, aside our disagreements, I have to say that for me this is not just about my desire to see justice, or about my concern for how Sano should be responded to. It's also about me not wanting to have to watch a sexual harasser/assaulter play baseball. I will feel like every time I watch the Twins and Sano for the Twins, I am effectively saying, "well, it bothers me what he did and who he is and the implications it carries about our culture, but it doesn't bother me enough to make me stop watching baseball." I don't want to feel like that, so I won't watch. Maybe other people don't feel that way. That makes me think I need to keep squawking until they do.

 

The odds are pretty good that watching any sporting event you will see people who have done just that. Only you won’t know who. Maybe a player, maybe a staff member, maybe an official. Just because they’re invisible for the moment doesn’t mean they’re not there. Sucks, doesn’t it?

[PseudoSABR]

Any job where your income is dependent on your capacity to interact with and be adored by the public creates a higher standard to which such people must be held to as to maintain their employment.  Sano's profession is meaningless without fanfare, and offers no service or product that has function outside the limelight.  

 

 

[Sam Morley]

 

The odds are pretty good that watching any sporting event you will see people who have done just that. Only you won’t know who. Maybe a player, maybe a staff member, maybe an official. Just because they’re invisible for the moment doesn’t mean they’re not there. Sucks, doesn’t it?

Yes, it does suck.

[Pardon My Dinger]

True fans of Sano should STILL BE FANS OF SANO! You don't give up on people for making a mistake.

 

 

Well, I couldn’t disagree more. Right or wrong, my Twins fandom is in peril until he is off this team. Personal problem? Sure, but i’ll be wearing Dodger Blue until this is resolved to my own satisfaction.

[Craig Arko]

 

Well, I couldn’t disagree more. Right or wrong, my Twins fandom is in peril until he is off this team. Personal problem? Sure, but i’ll be wearing Dodger Blue until this is resolved to my own satisfaction.

You don't think there's anyone affiliated with the Dodger organization (or any of the other franchises, or indeed any large organization) that has not committed harassment? Or is it okay because it's not been made public, yet?

[Jham]

Well, I couldn’t disagree more. Right or wrong, my Twins fandom is in peril until he is off this team. Personal problem? Sure, but i’ll be wearing Dodger Blue until this is resolved to my own satisfaction.

That's fine. There's a danger in death penalty reactions. Dave chappelle discussed this issue in his latest Netflix special. He says that changing this culture will take men. And will involve a lot of imperfect heroes. We both want the same thing. We're disagreeing as to what might have a greater impact. No biggie. I hope you'll still cheer and post. You're certainly not forced to.

[Pardon My Dinger]

You don't think there's anyone affiliated with the Dodger organization (or any of the other franchises, or indeed any large organization) that has not committed harassment? Or is it okay because it's not been made public, yet?

More of a tipping point type thing.

[Craig Arko]

 

More of a tipping point type thing.

How so?

[Pardon My Dinger]

How so?

I am just kind of over MN sports. Been a fan all my life, and I’ve invested a hell of a lot of emotion and energy into the Twins. I have proudly dedicated my fandom to some really bad baseball teams over the years. But bad people, I can’t do that. If the Twins win with Sano, that will be too conflicting for me. If he hits a walkoff in the World Series, whoopdeedoo.

 

So until I find out that Clayton Kershaw, et al, is a raging homophobe (or something), I can at least have a meaningful baseball experience with a clean conscience. And if I find out that Karl Towns punches an old lady in the face (or something), best believe i’ll be dropping the T Wolves too.

[DaveW]

It should be noted that nothing else has come out against Sano. What we have seen in these serial accuser type situations is that multiple people come out and accuse the person.

 

Now that isn’t to say something did or did not happen with Betsy (I think the truth lies somewhere in between as it does most times)

 

But at the very least the lack of “new” relevations or new allegations should allow everyone to take a step back, breathe and let the process play out before declaring he’s innocent or guilty.

[PseudoSABR]

 

It should be noted that nothing else has come out against Sano. What we have seen in these serial accuser type situations is that multiple people come out and accuse the person.

Now that isn’t to say something did or did not happen with Betsy (I think the truth lies somewhere in between as it does most times)

But at the very least the lack of “new” relevations or new allegations should allow everyone to take a step back, breathe and let the process play out before declaring he’s innocent or guilty.

I guess you aren't counting the reports out of Chattanooga. 

 

It's been like a week, dude. I wouldn't draw any conclusions based on the lack of new allegations. 

[DaveW]

I guess you aren't counting the reports out of Chattanooga.

 

It's been like a week, dude. I wouldn't draw any conclusions based on the lack of new allegations.

Those aren’t really reports, that’s just some random dude on twitter claiming Sano more or less was a bit of a womanizer (which isn’t illegal and in fact isn’t a big thing at all)

 

The Cat calling is a little out of line, but I’m guessing he has grown, also it’s important to note different cultures etc

 

Unless I missed something completely?

[drjim]

 

Those aren’t really reports, that’s just some random dude on twitter claiming Sano more or less was a bit of a womanizer (which isn’t illegal and in fact isn’t a big thing at all)

The Cat calling is a little out of line, but I’m guessing he has grown, also it’s important to note different cultures etc

Unless I missed something completely?

 

I'm a little surprised more hasn't come out yet. It's relatively early, but I do think if he had a pattern of assault there would be more information other than he is a womanizer.

 

Doesn't make what he did to Betsy any less serious, but does make me think that there can be some redemption with Sano, and that he doesn't necessarily need to be kicked to the curb.

[Mr. Brooks]

Those aren’t really reports, that’s just some random dude on twitter claiming Sano more or less was a bit of a womanizer (which isn’t illegal and in fact isn’t a big thing at all)

 

The Cat calling is a little out of line, but I’m guessing he has grown, also it’s important to note different cultures etc

 

Unless I missed something completely?

While I'll agree that those reports probably need to be substantiated, I disagree that it's "not a big thing at all."

 

If true, this was happening at a workplace, during work hours, and was severe enough that female employees allegedly had to be relocated to other work areas. That's a pretty big deal, IMO.

[Sam Morley]

 

Those aren’t really reports, that’s just some random dude on twitter claiming Sano more or less was a bit of a womanizer (which isn’t illegal and in fact isn’t a big thing at all)

The Cat calling is a little out of line, but I’m guessing he has grown, also it’s important to note different cultures etc

Unless I missed something completely?

 

Cat calling is sexual harassment. Sexual harassment while in uniform, from the dugout, toward another employee is not "a little out of line", it's bad.

 

Grown? Grown from sexual harassment to sexual assault?

 

Different cultures etc.? Please, explain.

 

Maybe you missed Trevor Plouffe's immediate vote of support and belief in Ms. Bissen's account.

 

These peripheral accounts and anecdotes may not amount to anything criminal, but they do build the case that Sano is a jerk and a creep and isn't deserving of anyone's sympathy or understanding now that he's also accused of sexual assault. As a whole, each of these accounts lend credibility to the others. Ms. Bissen's account, obviously stands on its own as credible. The account from Chattanooga, is much less credible on its own and could easily be speculatively attributed to racism, or any number of things, but it becomes more believable when paired with Ms. Bissen's reported experience.

[laloesch]

As a fan observing from afar I am not pretending that i know something more about the situation then i actually do. I understand everyone's concerns regarding the issue, but I'll let the courts decide if it comes to that and Mlb baseball's judgement, again if it comes to that. I'll still cheer for the team. In this country we all have the same rights guaranteed to us by the constitution. Let the courts decide. I choose to stay out of it because it is not my place to cast judgement.