Cleveland series

[diehardtwinsfan]

I have to think Gonsalves will be headed up once they start signing draft guys and starting up the rookie leagues... not much is in AAA that is worth protecting.

[AWOLNATION_11]

Are the Twins able to put Chargois on the 60-day DL since he got hurt while optioned to AAA?

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Are the Twins able to put Chargois on the 60-day DL since he got hurt while optioned to AAA?

Generally, no.

 

I think they could do it, but it would require giving him MLB service time, both going forward and possibly dating back to his original DL date (or maybe even his option date, if the option was withdrawn?).

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Agreed. Rotation juggling is something you do in September, not June.

I just posted this on the minor league forum, but maybe it's more on-topic here:

 

When you have a billion doubleheaders coming up, it probably pays to look at SP possibilities more than a couple days in advance.

[nicksaviking]

 

Agreed. Rotation juggling is something you do in September, not June.

 

Seems to be the Twins are pretty accomplished early season rotation jugglers.

 

Just not by choice. Nor to great effect.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Not that tough.

Santana and Berrios each got an extra day rest last weekend before the San Francisco series. They could have started Gibson Saturday with Santana and Berrios starting on regular rest the previous Thursday and Friday.

If Molitor had made that decision, Berrios and Santana would have combined for 3 of the 7 Indian games instead of 1 of 7. Gibson would miss the Indians completely instead of getting two starts. If they had made that decision, Santana would be starting Sunday following the double header. With Wilk and Mejia starting the double header, the Twins could easily head into Sunday with no bullpen. They could easily head into Sunday down 0-3 in the series. Who do you want starting that Sunday game? The Twins chose Gibson. This isn't hindsight. They knew about the double header. They knew the Indians were a key rival.

I hope it works out. They are really counting on Gibson.

As you point out, this was not a complicated matter of reshuffling the starting rotation, but simply keeping guys on a days' rest schedule instead of a turn in the rotation schedule.

 

Looking at it this way, keeping Santana on those four days rest would also have lined him up for the start on that final Sunday, July 9, before the All Star break.

 

The Twins might still consider asking Santana to start that final Sunday on three days rest so that he doesn't have to pitch or even think about preparing to pitch in the All Star game (assuming he is selected).

[DaveW]

If the Twins hope to continue to contend, at least 2 of those guys will have to step up somewhat to help stabilize the rotation in the near and mid term this season. Might as well start now.

 

It's not ideal, but it is what it is. Glad the Twins got the win today with berrios on the mound.

 

For this upcoming series, as long as they win at least one game it will be "ok"

 

Cleveland doesn't exactly have a lights out staff these days either....could be some fun shootouts.

Damnit

[akmanak]

We have no one in AAA who can start or hell can even be in our bullpen. It is time to stop living in fantasy world and shop around Santana, Dozier, and *gasp* Buxton.

 

This team will not be in first place again and will continue that way until management and the fans realize you cant build a team around a 3rd baseman and a starter. Why is it so hard for people to see that?

[nytwinsfan]

 

We have no one in AAA who can start or hell can even be in our bullpen. It is time to stop living in fantasy world and shop around Santana, Dozier, and *gasp* Buxton.

This team will not be in first place again and will continue that way until management and the fans realize you cant build a team around a 3rd baseman and a starter. Why is it so hard for people to see that?

You had me there until the Buxton part. His possible upside (which agreed he very well might not reach) is not worth how little anyone is likely to give us. But yeah, we should trade Santana and Dozier for pitching prospects or decent pitchers with 4+ years of control.

[mikecgrimes]

This thread has reminded me we have our two best pitchers ready to help us recover.  The luxury of a 2 game lead was we could afford to be swept without it being a knockout.  it sure feels like it was but so did Houston.  If we build another 2 game lead we know we're a true contender.

[mikecgrimes]

 

We have no one in AAA who can start or hell can even be in our bullpen. It is time to stop living in fantasy world and shop around Santana, Dozier, and *gasp* Buxton.
 

 

If we're 2 or 3 games out at the deadline we have a tough decision.  Now we wait to see if we get back to even or 4 games out first.  Until your  over 3 games out or 3 with 2 games remaining your in it.

[Darius]

Not advocating calling up Romero,

but I'm just curious as to why it's risky for the player's long-term success to start a game in the MLB?

 

Why can't it be argued that getting the experience would be beneficial?

 

Are people worried that the player would be so mentally fragile, that a bad start would ruin their entire career? Or that, a player may be an All-Star if they follow a strict progression through the minors, or totally unsuccessful if that plan is deviated from for even a single start?

 

Health-wise, what makes 80-100 pitches in an MLB game more risky than a AA game?

 

Where did the fallacy originate that you're putting a player's career at risk by making a start, anymore than their career is at risk everyday in the minors?

 

If you opt not to start a guy, it's because he's not better than the other option. That all. If Romero isn't in a place where he command his great stuff, he'll get destroyed (see 2016 Berrios). That won't help. That's why they won't call him up.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

You had me there until the Buxton part. His possible upside (which agreed he very well might not reach) is not worth how little anyone is likely to give us. But yeah, we should trade Santana and Dozier for pitching prospects or decent pitchers with 4+ years of control.

 

I'm with you on Buxton. He shouldn't be traded.  Dozier without question should be shopped.

 

Santana is a bit tricky.  It would depend on what came back for Dozier for one and how much the team is willing to spend to get talent this offseason.  Pitching is a position of weakness, and I don't see Dozier netting enough MLB ready/close to ready pitching talent to forgo an FA acquisition or two if Santana is traded.  I think I'd have to be pretty wowed to part with Santana at this point (unless the brain trust is convinced that the wheels are about to fall off). 

[nicksaviking]

I'm with you on Buxton. He shouldn't be traded.  Dozier without question should be shopped.

 

Santana is a bit tricky.  It would depend on what came back for Dozier for one and how much the team is willing to spend to get talent this offseason.  Pitching is a position of weakness, and I don't see Dozier netting enough MLB ready/close to ready pitching talent to forgo an FA acquisition or two if Santana is traded.  I think I'd have to be pretty wowed to part with Santana at this point (unless the brain trust is convinced that the wheels are about to fall off).

 

I'd want to be wowed for Santana, but I definitely put him out there. I trust 35-year-old pitchers only slightly more than I trust San Diego pitchers and a hair less than Oakland pitchers.

[nytwinsfan]

 

I'm with you on Buxton. He shouldn't be traded.  Dozier without question should be shopped.

 

Santana is a bit tricky.  It would depend on what came back for Dozier for one and how much the team is willing to spend to get talent this offseason.  Pitching is a position of weakness, and I don't see Dozier netting enough MLB ready/close to ready pitching talent to forgo an FA acquisition or two if Santana is traded.  I think I'd have to be pretty wowed to part with Santana at this point (unless the brain trust is convinced that the wheels are about to fall off). 

 

Completely agree with this. I think if you can get a good AAA/MLB ready pitching prospect back for Dozier + (Rosario, etc?), you do that and keep Santana. If you can't, I'd consider trading Santana for MLB-ready pitching, if the return is pretty high. Then you use the money from Santana's contract plus Santiago/Nolasco, Perkins, Belisle, which I think in total is about $34 million, and use it to get a very good starting pitcher (somewhat comparable to Santana) and maybe a good reliever.  Then you have a good MLB-ready pitching prospect and another veteran pitcher almost as good as Santana, plus if you also trade Dozier (say for prospects that are further away), that's an extra $9 million, so with $43 million, you could maybe even get one # 2 starter and one # 4 starter, although I'd probably go with the #2 starter and a very good reliever.

[USAFChief]

Completely agree with this. I think if you can get a good AAA/MLB ready pitching prospect back for Dozier + (Rosario, etc?), you do that and keep Santana. If you can't, I'd consider trading Santana for MLB-ready pitching, if the return is pretty high. Then you use the money from Santana's contract plus Santiago/Nolasco, Perkins, Belisle, which I think in total is about $34 million, and use it to get a very good starting pitcher (somewhat comparable to Santana) and maybe a good reliever.  Then you have a good MLB-ready pitching prospect and another veteran pitcher almost as good as Santana, plus if you also trade Dozier (say for prospects that are further away), that's an extra $9 million, so with $43 million, you could maybe even get one # 2 starter and one # 4 starter, although I'd probably go with the #2 starter and a very good reliever.

Why would a team that has "MLB-ready pitching" trade it for Santana? Wouldn't they just plug in that MLB ready pitching?

 

If you're trading Santana, you're getting back pitching that might be ready in 2018, at the earliest.

 

Now maybe that's ok with some people, I get that. But trading Santana is pushing back contention by at least a year, and that's the best case scenario.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

Why would a team that has "MLB-ready pitching" trade it for Santana? Wouldn't they just plug in that MLB ready pitching?

If you're trading Santana, you're getting back pitching that might be ready in 2018, at the earliest.

Now maybe that's ok with some people, I get that. But trading Santana is pushing back contention by at least a year, and that's the best case scenario.

 

I was basically going to post the same thing. Santana might get pitching, but it won't be pitching that will help this year. At best it's a guy with a decent ceiling who is struggling right now...  More than likely, it's a guy in AA. 

 

Dozier could bring in pitching though, and I'd be tempted to shop him.

[nytwinsfan]

 

Why would a team that has "MLB-ready pitching" trade it for Santana? Wouldn't they just plug in that MLB ready pitching?

If you're trading Santana, you're getting back pitching that might be ready in 2018, at the earliest.

Now maybe that's ok with some people, I get that. But trading Santana is pushing back contention by at least a year, and that's the best case scenario.

Yes, obviously I meant MLB-ready in 2018, not in 2017.  I mean the whole point of us being willing to trade Santana is that we wouldn't be contending in 2017, so MLB-ready means MLB-ready in 2018, the next year we might possibily contend. I mean, my entire post was about what salary would be next year after Santiago/Nolasco and Perkins come off the books. I thought it was pretty clear from context I was looking at 2018, not 2017. 

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

I'd want to be wowed for Santana, but I definitely put him out there. I trust 35-year-old pitchers only slightly more than I trust San Diego pitchers and a hair less than Oakland pitchers.

 

That's a fair position to take, but as Chief noted, trading Santana puts contention back unless the team is planning on spending big this offseason. 

 

I get not trusting a 35 year old pitcher to continue to pitch well, but there's a lack of suitable replacements.  If Santana is traded, you're counting on a rotation of Berrios, Hughes, May, Gibson, and Mejia for 2018.  That's pretty dicey, and that's coming from a guy who is very high on May and Mejia.

[akmanak]

Why would a team that has "MLB-ready pitching" trade it for Santana? Wouldn't they just plug in that MLB ready pitching?

 

If you're trading Santana, you're getting back pitching that might be ready in 2018, at the earliest.

 

Now maybe that's ok with some people, I get that. But trading Santana is pushing back contention by at least a year, and that's the best case scenario.

This team is not a contender right now. It is a team who can win some games against very poor teams. I have a feeling you will see that by next Sunday when we are 6 games backs.

[Shaitan]

 

We have no one in AAA who can start or hell can even be in our bullpen. It is time to stop living in fantasy world and shop around Santana, Dozier, and *gasp* Buxton.

This team will not be in first place again and will continue that way until management and the fans realize you cant build a team around a 3rd baseman and a starter. Why is it so hard for people to see that?

Why can't fans be happy with a second place team, in first place 2 days ago? I don't get this statement.

[Shaitan]

It's the Houston series all over again.

 

Yes, the series went poorly. Yes, the team still sucks out loud at home. Yes, they're unlikely to compete for the division at the end of the season because they've been walking a tightrope all year long.

 

But it's mid-June. This is baseball, not a 16 game NFL season. Teams have bad streaks and good streaks. Losing a series, especially against a division opponent in June, isn't the kiss of death.  They play each other like 25 times each year.

Do I honestly believe this team will contend at the end of the year? Probably not, but anything is possible. Let it ride, at least until the All-Star break, which is when this stuff traditionally starts to happen.

 

[Mike Sixel]

 

That's a fair position to take, but as Chief noted, trading Santana puts contention back unless the team is planning on spending big this offseason. 

 

I get not trusting a 35 year old pitcher to continue to pitch well, but there's a lack of suitable replacements.  If Santana is traded, you're counting on a rotation of Berrios, Hughes, May, Gibson, and Mejia for 2018.  That's pretty dicey, and that's coming from a guy who is very high on May and Mejia.

 

Gonsalves and others should be in the rotation by 2018. Heck, I'd argue he should be here in July/August, getting acclimated, so he's more ready next year. 

 

They aren't competing with Santana, if none of the AA pitchers are here and helping next year either...

[Doomtints]

Cleveland clearly wants first place more than the Twins, as Cleveland is pitching and hitting much better this series.

 

We'll find out soon if this is the end of the Twins being in first place, or if it's the beginning of them figuring out how to play tough games. With this pitching, it's probably the former. In any case, the Twins will have to recover after this series is through....

[Mike Sixel]

That was disappointing. I thought the offense would carry them to at least 1 win.

[Doomtints]

Why do the Twins suck so much at Target Field? This isn't a new problem. 

[nicksaviking]

 

That's a fair position to take, but as Chief noted, trading Santana puts contention back unless the team is planning on spending big this offseason. 

 

I get not trusting a 35 year old pitcher to continue to pitch well, but there's a lack of suitable replacements.  If Santana is traded, you're counting on a rotation of Berrios, Hughes, May, Gibson, and Mejia for 2018.  That's pretty dicey, and that's coming from a guy who is very high on May and Mejia.

 

I wouldn't trade Santana without expecting to get at least one and hopedully more pitchers that can step into the rotation next year. That doesn't mean I'd expect that pitcher to be as good next year as Santana is this year, but man, Ervin's age has really snuck up on us.

 

There isn't a 35-year-old pitcher anywhere to be seen on any pitching leaderboards. Not any good leaderboards anyway. CC Sabathia is 37th sorted by WAR and 32nd by xFIP. That's the best available for guys eligible to be elected President.

 

And to my other concern, Santana is currently tied for 47th and 66th among 83 qualified pitchers in those metrics. Somehow, someway he's winning due to being 3rd in LOB% despite the fact that he's at his highest BB/9 rate and his lowest K/9 in over a decade. His LOB% is 14% higher than his career norm, it doesn't seem sustainable.

 

He'll probably continue to prove me wrong, but he looks ready to turn into a pumpkin at any second. I think we're in for some Hughes-like anguish if this team goes into next year expecting Santana to be a net-positive pitcher, let alone a front of the rotation guy. The worst thing that could happen is if he starts going belly up towards the end of this year but his early season stats inflate his overall production, masking what we should be expecting going forward.