De Leon

[cmoss84]

For all of you who were upset the Dozier/De Leon trade didn't happen...be happy. He made his debut yesterday and did not look good. I know he is just coming off an injury and might end up being pretty good. But he was throwing 92-93 and had no idea where the ball was going. 

 

I am perfectly happy with Dozier in our lineup every day. 

[Mike Sixel]

 

For all of you who were upset the Dozier/De Leon trade didn't happen...be happy. He made his debut yesterday and did not look good. I know he is just coming off an injury and might end up being pretty good. But he was throwing 92-93 and had no idea where the ball was going. 

 

I am perfectly happy with Dozier in our lineup every day. 

 

so, ignore all of last year, and judge him on 1 start this year? Seems a bit early....

[Vanimal46]

Strange to claim the Twins won this non-trade.... Shouldn't we follow this for the next 6 years and see who's better? 

[KirbyDome89]

If there is one thing this team could use right now it's a starting pitcher. It's hard for me to proclaim this a win for the Twins after De Leon throws 3 innings and we're looking at Hughes/Gibson/Tepesch as the 5th starter. 

[wsnydes]

 

Strange to claim the Twins won this non-trade.... Shouldn't we follow this for the next 6 years and see who's better? 

Or who provides more value in context.  I still think the offense would be fine without Dozier, but the rotation is in dire need of capable arms.

 

Far too early to make any claims regardless.

[cmoss84]

I know it's early on...like I said in my original post, he is just coming off an injury and might end up being decent. It will take some time to tell.

 

Personally, I do not like him as a prospect and would rather have Dozier in our lineup or trade him for someone else. I'm glad we didn't "settle" for that deal. 

 

 

[cmoss84]

 

so, ignore all of last year, and judge him on 1 start this year? Seems a bit early....

I didn't like him last year either...

[nicksaviking]

As someone who was not interested in De Leon as the centerpiece in a Dozier trade at all; someone who didn't think he had the stuff or injury history anyone could ever count on:

 

Way, way too early to make a decision. That start meant next to nothing.

[laloesch]

 

For all of you who were upset the Dozier/De Leon trade didn't happen...be happy. He made his debut yesterday and did not look good. I know he is just coming off an injury and might end up being pretty good. But he was throwing 92-93 and had no idea where the ball was going. 

 

I am perfectly happy with Dozier in our lineup every day. 

 

Lets see how he's doing by season end before passing judgement.  

Not every horse exits the starting gate at full speed.  Some take time more time then others especially those new to the majors (see Berrios). 

[Otto von Ballpark]

In defense of De Leon's debut, he wasn't promoted for performance -- the Rays used their scheduled Monday starter in the long game in Minnesota on Sunday, so they needed another starter quickly. And De Leon was rested and on the 40-man roster. But, he missed most of spring training, and just recently made his 2017 AAA debut after his rehab assignment.

[drjim]

De Leon wasn't good at the end of the year, probably is broken, hasn't done much yet this year since coming off the DL and now this debut. It's a bad trend. 

 

I'm glad they kept Dozier too.

[laloesch]

 

De Leon wasn't good at the end of the year, probably is broken, hasn't done much yet this year since coming off the DL and now this debut. It's a bad trend. 

 

I'm glad they kept Dozier too.

 

So was Berrios (wasn't good last year).  I don't know if he's broken yet.  

Glad we gave him a second chance.

[Seth Stohs]

I'm glad they kept Dozier because De Leon was all they were offered... 

 

That's it... nothing more. Nothing to do with De Leon beyond that. I hope he goes on to become a solid #3 starter like most think he will... I don't wish him ill will. 

[drjim]

 

So was Berrios (wasn't good last year).  I don't know if he's broken yet.  

Glad we gave him a second chance.

 

Berrios always had a better stuff.

[drivlikejehu]

Too early to tell on De Leon, though I've never been that impressed and opposed the proposed deal.

 

Perhaps more interesting is to look at the Dodgers' 2B situation . . . the Utley/Forsythe platoon has been similar to Dozier in terms of overall value due to small-sample defensive metrics and Dozier's mediocre offensive start. At the plate though, Forsythe looks terrible, with a 30% K rate and minimal power despite those favorable platoon matchups. 

 

Given Utley's injury history, the Dodgers could be back to square one at any time, despite giving up De Leon. Their team is playing well of course, so it's far from a critical issue, but the NL West appears more competitive than expected.

 

Seeing as Yadier Alvarez is 21 and walking 4.7 per 9 in high-A ball, maybe the Dodgers would have been better off making a legit offer. Even a so-so version of Dozier takes up 1 less roster spot and offers more stability than their current setup.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

De Leon wasn't good at the end of the year, probably is broken, hasn't done much yet this year since coming off the DL and now this debut. It's a bad trend.

He's literally had 2 starts since he came off the DL, one in AAA on a pitch count and his MLB debut.

 

I get that people want to re-affirm their opinions of the Dozier non-trade, but there really isn't much new here.  Yeah, he missed a couple months with injury which isn't good, but even that's not conclusive yet either.

[twins_89]

The fact that the Dodgers seemed more than willing to trade De Leon left me with questions about his future.When a team pushes one player as a trade chip you have to think they believed his perceived value might not hold up much longer.

[Mike Sixel]

 

The fact that the Dodgers seemed more than willing to trade De Leon left me with questions about his future.When a team pushes one player as a trade chip you have to think they believed his perceived value might not hold up much longer.

 

Clearly, then, you would never trust anyone on any trade?

[Vanimal46]

 

The fact that the Dodgers seemed more than willing to trade De Leon left me with questions about his future.When a team pushes one player as a trade chip you have to think they believed his perceived value might not hold up much longer.

 

Dodgers' fans could be saying the same thing about Dozier... Since the new regime were the ones saying over the off-season that he's on the trade block. 

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Perhaps more interesting is to look at the Dodgers' 2B situation . . . the Utley/Forsythe platoon has been similar to Dozier in terms of overall value due to small-sample defensive metrics and Dozier's mediocre offensive start. At the plate though, Forsythe looks terrible, with a 30% K rate and minimal power despite those favorable platoon matchups. 

 

Given Utley's injury history, the Dodgers could be back to square one at any time, despite giving up De Leon. Their team is playing well of course, so it's far from a critical issue, but the NL West appears more competitive than expected.

It's definitely interesting to follow.

 

Forsythe was injured for a month already which is a complicating factor in evaluating anything at this early stage.  He was doing all right at the plate before the injury, albeit with a high K rate and a super-high BABIP... and now he's doing poorly since his return, with a dropping K rate but also a super-low BABIP (.000 for his last 5 games).  Only 76 PA overall so far, though.

 

Forsythe is actually covering 3B right now with Turner out, so that might be a "benefit" that Dozier wouldn't have provided.  Chris Taylor has gotten the 2nd most starts at 2B after Utley and he's had a pretty impressive season so far (154 wRC+), so it's a complicated mix.

[drjim]

 

He's literally had 2 starts since he came off the DL, one in AAA on a pitch count and his MLB debut.

 

I get that people want to re-affirm their opinions of the Dozier non-trade, but there really isn't much new here.  Yeah, he missed a couple months with injury which isn't good, but even that's not conclusive yet either.

 

I always thought there was a good chance he was broken, which is why the Dodgers were quick to include him in a trade. Beyond that, I never really liked his profile and thought he was overrated in prospect rankings.

 

I don't need to re-affirm anything.

[twins_89]

 

Dodgers' fans could be saying the same thing about Dozier... Since the new regime were the ones saying over the off-season that he's on the trade block. 

 

I don't think there is an equivalence in situations. Everyone in the league could easily look at the Twins roster/record and deduce that Dozier was available, it just made sense. De Leon on the other hand is a guy that would rarely be made available if his current team believed he was as good as the rankings said he was.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

I always thought there was a good chance he was broken, which is why the Dodgers were quick to include him in a trade. Beyond that, I never really liked his profile and thought he was overrated in prospect rankings.

 

I don't need to re-affirm anything.

You are posting pretty much the same opinion now as you did then, with little in the way of new data.  That's pretty much the definition of reaffirmation, right?

[twins_89]

 

Clearly, then, you would never trust anyone on any trade?

 

That's a really weird generalization based on my discussing a single specific trade situation.

[drjim]

You are posting pretty much the same opinion now as you did then, with little in the way of new data. That's pretty much the definition of reaffirmation, right?

That's one way to look at it I suppose.

 

I was concerned about health and not sold on the profile. Since then he has been hurt and not pitched well. That strikes me as new data.

[ashbury]

You are posting pretty much the same opinion now as you did then, with little in the way of new data.  That's pretty much the definition of reaffirmation, right?

Does anyone here ever post a new opinion in regard to these "old chestnut" topics?

 

I'd like to re-affirm the moderation team's strong advice to stick to the topic and avoid turning the discussion toward the psychology of our fellow posters themselves. As you can see in the above exchange, it tends to put the person on the defensive, for no purpose.

 

And with that, please return to the subject at hand.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

That's one way to look at it I suppose.

I was concerned about health and not sold on the profile. Since then he has been hurt and not pitched well. That strikes me as new data.

He had one injury which he already returned from (which suggests it may not be severe or long-term), and he's pitched in 2 games under unusual circumstances since being activated.  Any data is new data, but it's a minimal amount.  If he had been healthy these past 2 months and repeating his 2016 AAA/MLB performances so far, I wouldn't say it made much of a dent in your position either (which I actually more or less agree with, I wasn't high enough on De Leon to pull the trigger on a straight-up swap).

[Otto von Ballpark]

Should be interesting to follow De Leon going forward, I'll try to keep an eye on him and update this thread.

 

I remember Alex Wood was rumored at the end to be available too (Wood to Seattle for prospects to include with De Leon?), he was off to a fantastic start but has landed on the DL.

 

Willie Calhoun is still looking like a decent prospect too, his power and patience playing up in his AAA debut.

 

And holy cow, were they right to make Bellinger untouchable!

[Vanimal46]

No kidding about Bellinger... If he was ever mentioned in a trade proposal* they should have faxed over the paperwork immediately. Dude is a stud. 

 

*He was not

[Mike Sixel]

It's fair to hold the same opinion of De Leon, for sure. I just don't think this data (other than if you had some foreknowledge of his likeliness to be injured) tells us anything new yet.

 

I won't revisit the trade/non trade here, since that's off topic.