Randball: Buxton on a roll

[gunnarthor]

http://www.startribune.com/after-that-awful-start-twins-outfielder-byron-buxton-is-on-a-roll/421869953/

 

"Since his tutorial with Torii Hunter, Buxton is 10 for his last 30 (.333) and has a .459 on-base percentage. Included in that stretch is a double, triple and home run — as well as seven walks to go with just six strikeouts. He’s scored nine runs in that span, getting a chance (finally) to show off his game-changing speed on a more consistent basis."

 

 

[yarnivek1972]

You mean major leaguers can actually learn from peer major leaguers?

 

Huh, I wonder if Berrios could learn more from Ervin Santana than Stu Cliburn, who's probably older than Berrios' grandparents.

[Mike Sixel]

 

http://www.startribune.com/after-that-awful-start-twins-outfielder-byron-buxton-is-on-a-roll/421869953/

 

"Since his tutorial with Torii Hunter, Buxton is 10 for his last 30 (.333) and has a .459 on-base percentage. Included in that stretch is a double, triple and home run — as well as seven walks to go with just six strikeouts. He’s scored nine runs in that span, getting a chance (finally) to show off his game-changing speed on a more consistent basis."

 

post-hoc argument for sure. We see this kind of thing a lot in sports, and it usually isn't sustained. Not saying it won't in this case, but these narratives appear daily across the country, then the player reverts, and no one says the "training" actually didn't help later.

[bird]

 

You mean major leaguers can actually learn from peer major leaguers?

 

Huh, I wonder if Berrios could learn more from Ervin Santana than Stu Cliburn, who's probably older than Berrios' grandparents.

 

Yeah, and Joe Maddon's a lousy manager. Because he's old too. Berrios has been lights out in AAA. To which of his peers do you attribute this success?

[Mike Sixel]

 

Yeah, and Joe Maddon's a lousy manager. Because he's old too. Berrios has been lights out in AAA. To which of his peers do you attribute this success?

 

In fairness....cliburn has been here for a very long time, during which the Twins have produced very few SPs. I don't think it's his age, however, that holds him back from being effective...

[bird]

 

post-hoc argument for sure. We see this kind of thing a lot in sports, and it usually isn't sustained. Not saying it won't in this case, but these narratives appear daily across the country, then the player reverts, and no one says the "training" actually didn't help later.

 

Yeah, the Hunter tutorial makes for a good story, and sure, maybe he had a pointer or two that resonated. But I'm now imagining a few people clinging to a narrative that converts Hunter into the next great whisperer.

[Taildragger8791]

 

In fairness....cliburn has been here for a very long time, during which the Twins have produced very few SPs. I don't think it's his age, however, that holds him back from being effective...

 

Oh yes, all those elite talented pitchers the Twins have drafted and signed that were on the fast track to the majors only to be ruined when they got to AAA.

[nicksaviking]

If Torii Hunter has truly been able to help Buxton his hiring was well worth it.

 

I was lukewarm at best when it came to re-hiring the former players for the record. I'll be thrilled to be wrong if this works out.

 

I thought Hunter's ambitions lied more in front office work. I wonder if the club sees more value in him working with players in some capacity now.

[bird]

 

In fairness....cliburn has been here for a very long time, during which the Twins have produced very few SPs. I don't think it's his age, however, that holds him back from being effective...

 

 

 

 

 Correct. Maybe he's a mediocre teacher, maybe not, and we'll never know how important he is a s a variable in the success or lack thereof, right? My sense about all of these coaches is that they can only be so effective. Because we like to point fingers somewhere when we're disappointed in a result, we probably discredit them too often and too much, and maybe we should put more of the onus on the player. We tend to credit the player generously when they succeed and point to coaching when they don't, or am I mistaken about this?

 

[Mike Sixel]

 

 

 

I've always believed it is a total system failure, from scouting to coaching. It has been so bad so long, that it has to be more than 1 problem.

 

As for credit? Not sure what "we" do. I think there are times when it is clear a player makes an adjustment, and the coach and player should get credit. I think we can't know about the "regular" player who is who he is, and is coached well or poorly, and who should get "credit". It really is a team effort....scouts, players, coaches, trainers, etc. 

 

When it has been this bad for this long, I'd expect changes, major changes.

[bird]

 

I've always believed it is a total system failure, from scouting to coaching. It has been so bad so long, that it has to be more than 1 problem.

 

When it has been this bad for this long, I'd expect changes, major changes.

 

We'll save this for another thread (retread rethread?). I have my top ten list of reasons that you've read before. There have already been many major changes over the years that have eliminated or at least reduced a majority of the past problems that made my list. We're simply waiting on the results, but still feeling a few of the repercussions.

 

Scouting, development, and training issues have never made my top ten list of problems. Giving them the best resources, technology, and tools, yes, but not the talent level of the field people themselves. 

 

As for Buxton, I'd guess the most critical thing for him will be that his mental and emotional growth allows his extraordinary talent to emerge. I think we're blessed to be witnessing this as it happens. He's remarkable.

[Mike Sixel]

 

We'll save this for another thread (retread rethread?). I have my top ten list of reasons that you've read before. There have already been many major changes over the years that have eliminated or at least reduced a majority of the past problems. We're simply waiting on the results, but still feeling a few of the repercussions.

 

Scouting, development, and training issues have never made my top ten list of problems. Giving them the best resources, technology, and tools, yes, but not the talent level of the field people themselves. 

 

You could be right, I have no idea. It's hard to believe none of it is talent related though.

[goulik]

Step one: Find Talent

Step two: Draft or sign Talent

Step three: Develop Talent

 

I think there have been problems at all three steps when it comes to pitching and for much of the Twins history, middle infield. It seems the Middle Infield problem has improved recently, now for the pitching improvement...

[TheLeviathan]

I'm happy to see him doing better, I'm betting a lot of people deserve credit for that.

[Pardon My Dinger]

If I recall correctly, Hunter's message for Buxton a couple years ago during Spring Training was to block all the dissonance that comes from a million coaches all telling him something different. Maybe that was the nature of this recent pep talk as well. Something like, pick something that works for you and focus on that, to hell with everyone else. I don't know, just a thought. 

[Willihammer]

From that Torii Hunter piece:

 

“I was just trying to really just help him to just stick with a plan and have a plan,” Hunter said, “and do what he can to stay on that ball and let the ball get deep. He’s been trying to catch the ball out in front.”

And from Randball's piece:

 

What I think we could attempt to conclude at this point is that batting Buxton high in the order to start the season — he was the No. 3 hitter in his first four games, going a combined 1 for 18 with 11 strikeouts — threw him off his approach a little. He was trying to pull everything early on, perhaps feeling the burden of being in that run-producing slot in the order.

Seems possible these two things are related.

[bird]

 

Step one: Find Talent

Step two: Draft or sign Talent

Step three: Develop Talent

 

I think there have been problems at all three steps when it comes to pitching and for much of the Twins history, middle infield. It seems the Middle Infield problem has improved recently, now for the pitching improvement...

 

 

This goes to the crux of my own question. Because I too remember when the consensus was the Twins somehow lacked the scouting and coaching acumen to develop middle infielders. Now, we can examine every level and find that middle infielders are an unquestionable strength of the system. What happened to change this? Did we actually replace untalented development people? My own theory is that the DR effort finally began to produce. Simultaneously, the IFA budget increased, the reputation in the DR improved to make the Twins an attractive choice, and maybe luck played a part, because it always does. But I reject the notion that they don't find talent (Kepler, Polanco, Thorpe), draft and sign talent (Sano, Buxton, Dozier), or develop talent (Rosario, Vargas, Rogers). I get that the history surrounding pitching leads almost everyone to the same foregone conclusion that it has to be scouting, and/or development issues. I see other variables as the bigger culprits, but I understand why others will never be convinced that these other variables could be bigger contributors, even when given indisputable evidence when talking about specific players.

 

As for Buxton, I'll give him the credit. He's the one playing baseball.

[DaveW]

I'm far from a hunter fanboy, but he deserves some credit. If anything, I think that Hunter gave him some self confidence in his own ability.buxton seemed like a guy who was overthinking, he looks much more relaxed and "natural" these past few weeks.

 

Hunter went through the same thing early on in his career, i can't think of many better peers for Buxton to talk to re: that.

 

Good on Torii 100%

[AZTwin]

Watched a few videos of Torii from sacrementobob and that guy can flat out coach

[ashbury]

What was Torii's interaction with Buxton during the cold start to the latter's season? Was he kept in an isolation chamber? I guess those #freetorii hashtags worked.

[ashbury]

buxton seemed like a guy who was overthinking

He looked to me like a guy who was underrecognizing breaking pitches in the dirt.

[DaveW]

He looked to me like a guy who was underrecognizing breaking pitches in the dirt.

Which goes into overthinking IMO.

 

I

[ashbury]

 

Which goes into overthinking IMO.

I

First, I'm not a big fan of trying to guess what goes on between somebody's ears. Second, when you can't tell fastballs from sliders it doesn't much matter what amount of other thinking you do. Third, when one explanation suffices then Occam's Razor suggests not introducing another explanation. Fourth, my fallback theory is that a witch turned Buxton into a newt but then he got better - or alternatively that our friend here was only mostly dead, and there's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead, mostly dead being slightly alive. Now, all dead, well, with all dead, there's usually only one thing that a hitting coach can do - go through his clothes and look for autographed baseball cards you might be able to sell.

[Darius]

post-hoc argument for sure. We see this kind of thing a lot in sports, and it usually isn't sustained. Not saying it won't in this case, but these narratives appear daily across the country, then the player reverts, and no one says the "training" actually didn't help later.

If you're watching the games, there is a clear difference in his approach. That came from somewhere. I've heard Hunter, before working with Buxton as noted above, as saying he needs to loosen up and have some fun, and let the ball travel deeper, as opposed to trying to yank everything down the foul line.

 

What exactly are you arguing, here? That Hunter's advice/work with him didn't help? That him hitting a slump at some point in the future, which is inevitable for even the best, is proof of that? That players don't sometimes get away from things have worked in the past, mechanically?

[ashbury]

post-hoc argument for sure. We see this kind of thing a lot in sports

And now we have, at this writing, a flat .000 OPS for the past 3 games. What post-hoc argument shall we come up to explain this latest bump in the road? Torii was unavailable for consultation recently?

 

My pre-hoc (or whatever the opposite is properly called) assumption is that Buxton is on the major league learning curve, and it will be two steps forward / one step back, for a while to come. Hopefully not the other way around for that ratio, I mean.

[jimmer]

 

And now we have, at this writing, a flat .000 OPS for the past 3 games. What post-hoc argument shall we come up to explain this latest bump in the road? Torii was unavailable for consultation recently?

 

 

I was going to ask the same thing :-)

[jimmer]

 

post-hoc argument for sure. 

post-hoc argument in conjunction with a preconceived notion. :-)

[Mike Sixel]

And now we have, at this writing, a flat .000 OPS for the past 3 games. What post-hoc argument shall we come up to explain this latest bump in the road? Torii was unavailable for consultation recently?

 

My pre-hoc (or whatever the opposite is properly called) assumption is that Buxton is on the major league learning curve, and it will be two steps forward / one step back, for a while to come. Hopefully not the other way around for that ratio, I mean.

No idea what the explanation is.

[Guest]

Re: credit for coaches and other players.

 

1. Sandy Koufax became Sandy Koufax only after getting advice from a backup catcher.

 

2. Rowson deserves credit for Sano's improvement - a coach who works hard with the player and tries to make him comfortable instead of criticizing him.

 

3. When the student is willing the teacher will appear.

 

It makes sense that someone like Hunter could give Buxton an insight that enables Buxton to better tap his talent.