Ryan tells Phil Miller about "learning up here.

[wsnydes]

 

Mark it 8, Dude. 

http://www.barefootandprogressive.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/smokey2.jpg

This isn't Nam...there are rules!

[Kwak]

The hypocrisy is believing that "the system" of player development actually predicts success. The number of "success stories" at AAA followed by face planting with the Twins is legend. Consider the latest examples: Milone, Santana and Buxton. Soon, Rosario will be proclaimed "ready". Queue the corgis on the merry-go-round.

[wsnydes]

 

The hypocrisy is believing that "the system" of player development actually predicts success. The number of "success stories" at AAA followed by face planting with the Twins is legend. Consider the latest examples: Milone, Santana and Buxton. Soon, Rosario will be proclaimed "ready". Queue the corgis on the merry-go-round.

What you describe is not hypocrisy, it's just being wrong.  The hypocrisy there would be saying we need to play for the future and utilize the farm system and then continue to trot out veterans that are blocking MLB ready prospects and relegating them to AAA.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I agree, the key then is to invest in placeholders that might generate some value when you're ready to move them.  We've also done a poor job at that.  

Well that's the flip side of the same coin (as you pointed out). He brings in free agents who generate value, and then he doesn't move them or even lets them hang around longer than he originally planned for them. Because they're polite to the executives or don't play their music too loud in the clubhouse or something.

[wsnydes]

 

Well that's the flip side of the same coin (as you pointed out). He brings in free agents who generate value, and then he doesn't move them or even lets them hang around longer than he originally planned for them. Because they're polite to the executives or don't play their music too loud in the clubhouse or something.

This.  I wouldn't hesitate at all if an offer was given for Grossman that included an actual player.  I'm much less concerned about finding a 4th outfielder than I am acquiring someone that can help down the road.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

Those words aren't surprising at all.  His words reflect his actions.  

 

This mentality would be fine for a middling team on the cusp of being a series contender, but not at all what a team in this position should be looking at.

 

He talks about guys wanting to win games.  I'd argue that several of the prospects might even give this team a better chance of winning baseball games.  They certainly wouldn't harm the chances at all.

 

This... if we were a 90 win team fighting for playoffs, then moves like Arcia start to make sense.  They still suck, but they make sense.  We won't be this year, or probably next. 

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

Because he has defensive value and lots of speed.

 

And, frankly, what do you do if you send him down? Play Rosario in center? You'd definitely lose defensive value, you'd lose speed, and maybe you might capture about 50 points in average. I think Rosario should be on the major league roster at this point, but when your choices are let Buxton learn up here, play Rosario in center or play Danny Santana in center, I think you just swallow hard and keep Buxton.

 

This team, at this point, needs to be patient with its prospects. They're not winning this year - that's the cold, hard reality. Look at the Boston Red Sox ... they're winning with prospects who weren't playing all that well the past couple of years.

 

It's a 100 loss team.  Find a warm body to play CF for the year to be honest.  Buxton isn't ready.  He's there defensively, but not offensively, and he's not getting better.  That's my issue there.  He couldn't hit major league pitching at the beginning of the season and he still cannot right now. 

[mazeville]

 

It's a 100 loss team.  Find a warm body to play CF for the year to be honest.  Buxton isn't ready.  He's there defensively, but not offensively, and he's not getting better.  That's my issue there.  He couldn't hit major league pitching at the beginning of the season and he still cannot right now. 

 

Why not just be patient? What's the harm in having him continue to play for a couple of months to see if he figures it out offensively? What's he going to do at AAA? He's blasted AAA pitching when he's been there. 

 

If they're going to lose 100 games this year, anyway, there's no problem seeing what an outfield of Rosario, Buxton and Kepler will do.

[wsnydes]

 

Why not just be patient? What's the harm in having him continue to play for a couple of months to see if he figures it out offensively? What's he going to do at AAA? He's blasted AAA pitching when he's been there. 

 

If they're going to lose 100 games this year, anyway, there's no problem seeing what an outfield of Rosario, Buxton and Kepler will do.

I tend to agree with this approach.  If I'm the team, I think I'd rather he be working with the big league hitting coach (all jokes aside).  They've gone this far with him, he may as well learn to hit big league pitching in the big leagues.  It's not as though this team is going anywhere anyway.  Allow the kid to learn and develop.

[PopRiveter]

 

Time to retire Terry. Get the gold stopwatch and go fishing!

I'm so sad it has come to a point where I agree with this.

 

Sorry Terry, I was last guy whose support you'd ever lose, but you lost me.

[drivlikejehu]

Different player development philosophies, OK, fine . . . focusing on "winning" this year? Wow.

[FormerMinnasotan]

The problem is in my opinion is that the Twins under Terry Ryan have a horrible player development team. That falls on Ryan. Let's start with Byron Buxton. If he is such a talent offensively why the hell can't he hit Major League pitching? Is the Twins coaching staff even coaching him, giving him proper coaching for when he is up to bat? All I have heard before Buxton came up is how he was going to be a "key" piece to the Twins turnaround. It hasn't happened.

Secondly the Twins were horrible in their handling of Jose Berrios. In every game he started he looked jittery and had continual problems with command and control. From what remarks Ryan made makes me think Neil Allen and co spent next to no time in trying to fix a fixable problem, instead it seemed they just trotted Berrios out with out a plan every time he was on the mound for the Twins.

And the Twins majorly f***ed with arguably their most important prospect Miguel Sano by forcing him to learn a new position he never played possibly cutting into and delaying Sano's learning how to be a better offensive player. I mean crap look at the Chicago Cubs recently. Have their top prospects from last year's club failed (no Kris Bryant is a leading MVP candidate)? How is it that even with top tier prospects that the Twins can't figure something as simple as developing that talent to be great.

[old nurse]

 

It's a 100 loss team.  Find a warm body to play CF for the year to be honest.  Buxton isn't ready.  He's there defensively, but not offensively, and he's not getting better.  That's my issue there.  He couldn't hit major league pitching at the beginning of the season and he still cannot right now. 

A .445 woba in AAA, what is he going to improve there?  Like Bradley in Boston, it might take awhile, but AAA isn't the answer.

[Kwak]

 

I think this year's attempt to be consistent is the idea that Buxton gives us enough on defense to make up for his hitting. Doesn't really work for me.  I'd rather bring up Rosario and play either him or Kepler in CF and see if the improved offense makes up for the defensive downgrade. I think it would. 

Let's compare the 2016 stats for these two:

 

23/115     .200Bavg     .218OBP     .313SLG     .532OPS

26/135     .193Bavg     .229OBP     .333SLG     .563OPS

 

OK, who is the better hitter? I certainly would conclude either have a statistically significant advantage. But, I can conclude that the use of the word "hitter" is not appropriate for either guy.

[Obsvr]

If I remember right, Buxton started slow at every level so I think his struggles at the ML level is to be expected.  He mashed at AAA, so I tend to think he's going to figure it out eventually.  

[troyhobbs]

The numbers for the young guys shouldn't be all that important at this stage of a lost season. Just make sure they're taking good at bats and that if they can do that and don't look completely lost let them know that they're here to stay.

 

Another interesting thing I read yesterday was a recent interview with Arcia and he basically said that he knew the trade/DFA was coming and he'd basically been waiting for it for quite a while. That would support a lot of beliefs that the Twins never had a plan for him (of late anyway) and were basically just waiting for an opportunity to get rid of him.  Why?  I don't know but guys like Arcia, Gomez, Ortiz, Valencia, Garza, "flashy guys" if you will, tend to get a different sort of treatment than guys like Plouffe, Hughes, Suzuki, Willingham, Doumit, the "nice guy" types. Perhaps it's coincidence but I feel like it's part of the "Twin's Way" popcockery.

[Obsvr]

 

Another interesting thing I read yesterday was a recent interview with Arcia and he basically said that he knew the trade/DFA was coming and he'd basically been waiting for it for quite a while. That would support a lot of beliefs that the Twins never had a plan for him (of late anyway) and were basically just waiting for an opportunity to get rid of him.  Why?  I don't know but guys like Arcia, Gomez, Ortiz, Valencia, Garza, "flashy guys" if you will, tend to get a different sort of treatment 

 

I'd have to disagree.  In Arcia's case he continually took bad at bat after bad at bat.  The guy has so much power and doesn't need to swing for the fence but he would never make adjustments.  He may eventually figure that out and become a solid hitter, but with Kepler ready and Buxton getting the majority of the playing time, he had to be let go.

 

 

 

[Rosterman]

Well, where do you start.

 

In the real secure world of having a major league starting 25, you can often fill that last offense or that last pitching spot with someone on the level of a Rule 5, or a prospect in training. You may use that spot to rotate some guys in and out of the major leagues.

 

At some point you give a rookie a spot in the major leagues. They go on the field in front of many thousands in a stadium full of noise anf facing the top 600 or so players in the game. Remember, if you are in the major leagues you are better than an equal number of guys playing AAA ball, at the moment.

 

Occasionally a guy plays so well in the minors and you have such a strong lineup you can afford to start a rookie at a position. They may lack in one area, but make up for it in another.

 

Yet they still have to work. Like someone said, when you go the batting cage, you don't just hit balls, you try different things with your bat. That is work. That is what you are paid to do outside the game. Just like a pitcher throws and they work on new pitches. They don't suddenly appear.

 

Ryan contradicts himself. He has allowed rookies to run and fail, most notably Hicks. He started rookies when the need came and was rewarded with fine seasons from Santana, Rosario and Sano. It is every rookies dream to get the call and start in the majors, rather than sit on the bench, and in a solid organization a rookie often sits as that spare outfielder, infielder or catcher is the guy ready to step in and play regular until someone returns from the disabled list.

 

You have so many charts, so much film, so many coaches. Maybe players are over-coached. But considering you have nothing to do but wakeup, go to the ballpark, prepare for a game, work on your game, go over things with people who are tracking things. It is an 8-hour job. You like it so much you show up early. You do work more than 40 hours a week, and maybe can take it easy once or twice a batting session. But it is work.

 

The minor leagues exist to train players to play in the major leagues, period. They spot player needs and help them advance each and every level, hopefully playing against age-appropriate competition, They should expect players to know that each level gets harder and harder with the hardest being the major leagues.

 

You don't know how hard major league ball is until you hit the Arizona Fall League, a place where most of the guys WILL BE on major league rosters (like the Cape Cod League where most of the guys will get drafted and play multiple minor league seasons).

 

Yes, you experience quality players in spring training, but you also experience a lot of rookies in your rookie time there, as well as major league vets that are working on adjusting their slowing steps, working on different pitches., hitting in different ways. Spring training is not about winning but getting in shape and making yourself a better player.

 

Just like the major leagues. You need to experience it. You need to fail up there to learn. You may have a longer or a shorter leash, but spending a few moments in major league ball and then going back down to the minors to work on something, work on something, work on something isn't necessarily any better than doing the same in the majors...except (and Terry had this right) the players in the majors ultimately want to win. They want to play in paced stadiums cheering them onto victory. They want to go to the playoffs. They will sign and move on to join a winning team and totally ignore offers from a losing team -- unless ALL the winning teams have full rosters.

 

You think Buxton and Berrios don't want to win. They just want the bigger payday and the meal money? Well, they may like that. But they ultimately know they won't get it unless the play, listen, learn, improve, play as a team, and win games.

 

Rookies can always be hungry. It is the experience they have played their short life to attain. Aging vets want to play well, it will keep them in a game and translate into a contract.

 

I'm sorry, Terry. If you put 25 rookies on the field tomorrow, they will play hard and strong. They may not win many games, or they may surprise everyone. But the team you have on the field, headed by a miserable rotation of veterans, a half-sluggish bullpen, some hitters who are doing what they predictably do every year, just isn't cutting it. Something isn't meshing. And the rookies, the future of the team, should be the ones being equally embraced to form ties with their teammates, the organization and ... the community (anyone notice the total lack of Twins player appearances anywhere this season?). 

 

I want to know what crystal ball the front office looked at the saw that last year's team was going to be better than last year's team this year. Well, maybe if every other team didn't work to improve their team, except the Twins. It looked like a pretty evenly matched division this season, and it is.,..since the Sox have come back to earth...except for the Twins.

 

And that is what is so sad. Someone read the tea leaves wrong, or dreamed, rather than had a plan.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

What you describe is not hypocrisy, it's just being wrong. The hypocrisy there would be saying we need to play for the future and utilize the farm system and then continue to trot out veterans that are blocking MLB ready prospects and relegating them to AAA.

true until we get the "total system failure" line which has been in full effect for 18 years

[wsnydes]

true until we get the "total system failure" line which has been in full effect for 18 years

That's part of my point. It's still not hypocrisy. It's just being wrong, and that's the problem in the long term.

[Rosterman]

Winning team, players playing to win. Hummmmm...not much to show in this part of the decade.

[Kwak]

 

What you describe is not hypocrisy, it's just being wrong.  The hypocrisy there would be saying we need to play for the future and utilize the farm system and then continue to trot out veterans that are blocking MLB ready prospects and relegating them to AAA.

Being "wrong" implies that there are plenty of "being "right". There aren't. Demoted players simply have to "turn it around" for a week or two and then are deemed "ready". If the FO was so ardent about the learning experience of AAA ball, a player would spent the rest of the AAA season in Rochester in hope of getting another looksee in September and a long look in Spring training.  Instead we see this shuttle bus between Minneapolis and Rochester (NY). This is evidence of hypocrisy--Rochester isn't used to further the development of a struggling player, it's use is to rebuild his self-confidence (and management's confidence!). Real development would take much more time.

[glunn]

Moderator note -- please be more respectful of other posters and drop the squabbling about hypocrisy.