Time for a change

[DPJ]

if you want to root for a team that has knee jerk reactions and fires people at will I suggest hopping on the New York Yankees bandwagon, I'm sure they have room for ya.

And all that franchise does is lose games.

 

BTW what knee jerk reactions and quick fires have the Yankees made recently?

[CDog]

What, I get that you think Gardy should stay. It's myopic to think that there can be no rational argument to let Gardy go.

You COULD actually read what I've posted in this very thread. You could. I'm almost sure of it.

[TheLeviathan]

Right now the team looks like it will win between 72-74 games, while that is nothing to write home about it is important to note that will be 10+ games better then last year.

It would be really healthy for you to acquaint yourself with reality at some point.

[Mike Sixel]

How is it "knee jerk" to fire someone who's teams have not been fundamentally sound for years (howard and seth's words), and who's team will lose 90 games two years in a row? This isn't a one time thing, this has been going on for years (not the losing, the lack of sound play). You keep typing those two loaded words, but this isn't "knee jerk".

[Riverbrian]

Gardy should not be fired!!!

 

I thank him for his years of service... I believe he is one of the top managers in the game and he should be recognized as such.

 

However, after the season concludes. I think Terry Ryan should suggest to Gardy that he step down and hopefully Gardy will go along with that idea. If not... Terry should pull the plug.

 

I know that another thread was just introduced stating that Gardy won't quit until a world series is won but I think a change in Manager and coaching. Fresh voices is a good idea and it has nothing to do with Gardy's performance.

 

I don't have any thoughts on who the replacement should be but it's time to roll the dice here.

 

Gardy didn't have much of a chance with the starting pitching this year or last year but in the end it comes down to competing for every game.

 

Every year there is a team that shows up and competes for a playoff spot that comes out of nowhere and has seemingly nothing to compete with on paper.

 

Take the Mets this year for example. I don't think the Mets will make the playoffs but you can't deny that they gave it a pretty good run. The Mets have David Wright and ??? The Mets pitching staff has been pretty good but you can't say that you looked at that staff and said it was going to be good. The 2011 Indians and D-Backs were teams that came together with what were thought to be less talented rosters. The 2010 Padres were a no name group that came together.

 

If you have the talent to make the major leagues... You have Talent... You can play this game. Now you have to strap it on and take pride in your jobs and go for it. I get the talent difference between Robinson Cano and Jamey Carroll. Yes... It helps to be loaded but you can compete with a team of major league talent.

 

162 games are a grind... You can't be perfect at all times but you gotta feel like you can win and that feeling has to come from somewhere. Gardenhire knows this but after 10 years of asking for something. It might be time for a new voice to start asking for it. In my opinion... The Team needs a ball buster. A manager who will have the players back and kick them in the ass at the same time. We need a manager who will kick dirt on home plate over bad calls and We need a team that's going to run over a catcher or two or Throw inside just because the hitter looked at them the wrong way.

 

This type of play was absent in 2011 and coupled with the lack of execution in 2011 made watching unbearable. The execution has been better in 2012 and the hitting as been better. There has been lineup improvement but I still don't see the hard ass play necessary to steal a couple of close games from time to time and the execution still has improving to do.

 

Bad pitching is one thing... But Bad Pitching gets worse with bad fundamentals behind them. I don't blame Gardy for this. I'm just saying that the players have settled or excepted some reality. Give me a dreamer. Someone stupid enough to think they can win.

 

I think it's time for a change and I hope it isn't a firing but if it's a firing... It's a hard ass move that maybe sets the tone for the rest of the hard ass moves that are necessary.

[James]

I don't think it's a knee jerk reaction to bring talk about Gardy's future as manager. I don't think it would be a knee jerk reaction to fire him either. I don't see that happening before the season is over though.

 

There are several issues with the team. I think we all can agree to that. I think firing Gardy at the end of the season (or allow him to retire, which I think is how it will be announced) will send a strong message to the team and the fans that the Twins organization wants to build a winning team.

[DPJ]

Bad pitching is one thing... But Bad Pitching gets worse with bad fundamentals behind them. I don't blame Gardy for this. I'm just saying that the players have settled or excepted some reality. Give me a dreamer. Someone stupid enough to think they can win.

How does Gardy continue to get a free pass from some people for the complete lack of fundamentals this team has showed over the last couple season?

 

This isn't a young team with a bunch of fresh from the minors position players. All spring training all we heard was getting back to the basic and spending extra time on the simple things. But yet vet major league players continue to make boneheaded errors and just stupid plays all over the field.

[Brock Beauchamp]

To make a statement that losing is not tolerated. THAT simple. If they do not, they practically say that they are ok with the product on the field. Wrong message.

And you show a guy with 20 years in the organization at least a modicum of respect. It's not Gardenhire's fault that the starting rotation is in shambles.

 

Absolutely nothing would be gained by pulling a dick move and firing Gardy, other than making the organization look bad. The same effect could be achieved in the offseason by politely asking him to step down and doing it behind closed doors.

[DaveW]

It would be really healthy for you to acquaint yourself with reality at some point.

I was saying there is no point to fire him mid season. It makes zero sense. If you want to fire him after the season fine, I understand the arguments. I just would prefer we have some superior option to bring in then just firing him to fire him.

[DPJ]

I was saying there is no point to fire him mid season. It makes zero sense. If you want to fire him after the season fine, I understand the arguments. I just would prefer we have some superior option to bring in then just firing him to fire him.

I have a question Dave...what is a superior option to Gardy?

[DaveW]

How is it "knee jerk" to fire someone who's teams have not been fundamentally sound for years (howard and seth's words), and who's team will lose 90 games two years in a row? This isn't a one time thing, this has been going on for years (not the losing, the lack of sound play). You keep typing those two loaded words, but this isn't "knee jerk".

It is knee jerk if you suddenly fire him in the season after a bad series, wait until the end of the year, evaluate your options and then fire him if its the best decision moving forward.

 

This isn't a Childress type situation where the team has stopped listening to him, stopped trying for him, I have yet to hear one such issue this year.

[TheLeviathan]

I was saying there is no point to fire him mid season. It makes zero sense. If you want to fire him after the season fine, I understand the arguments. I just would prefer we have some superior option to bring in then just firing him to fire him.

I don't disagree with your conclusion, but holy christ was that a pollyannish reason for it. Even for you.

[DaveW]

I have a question Dave...what is a superior option to Gardy?

Maddon, Leyland, La Russa, Torre, Francona, Mattingly, Tom Kelly, Showalter (maybe). I'm sure there are others, but nobody has thrown out a reasonable replacement yet.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I have a question Dave...what is a superior option to Gardy?

Toby! Toby! Toby!

 

... I just can't resist.

[Mike Sixel]

Ah, well, see, I'd have fired him last offseason for the lack of progress in building young players up, and in playing fundamentally sound baseball. I'm ok with him keeping his job through the end of the year, but I can't think of a good reason to keep him after that.

[DaveW]

I don't disagree with your conclusion, but holy christ was that a pollyannish reason for it. Even for you.

The point is, if you fire a manager mid season it is because they are clearly under-preforming by a very large amount and that by doing so it will hopefully cause the team to start playing well again. Are the Twins really under-preforming there skill set? Not really, most people said this would be a 90 loss team heading into the season, so its not like they were predicted to win 90 games and are all of a sudden playing like crap.

[DaveW]

And all that franchise does is lose games.

 

BTW what knee jerk reactions and quick fires have the Yankees made recently?

They ran Torre out of town after one bad playoff series.

[DPJ]

Maddon, Leyland, La Russa, Torre, Francona, Mattingly, Tom Kelly, Showalter (maybe). I'm sure there are others, but nobody has thrown out a reasonable replacement yet.

First off none of those guys are coming here. But why does the replacement have to have a long resume like the names you listed. A couple years ago no one knew who the hell Maddon was, but he worked well with the young talent in TB and now IMO he's the best manager in baseball. You can go find a smart and progressive manager out there that doesn't have the "vet pressense" you yern for.

 

Instead of a long resume the Twins need to find someone who can work with the kids coming up, won't play favorites and can take the ups and downs that come with young players. Something Gardy doesn't do.

[Winston Smith]

Morneau is now the only Twin to have played in a Playoff win by the Twins. 2004 is a long time ago, with a lot of good players, 2 mvp's, 2 cy youngs, 3 batting champs and no playoff wins. Time for a change and after the season to save face is fine.

[DPJ]

They ran Torre out of town after one bad playoff series.

One bad series...try again. NTM they offereed him 5 million to come back, Torree turned it down.

 

NTM it's not like Giardi has had any issues winning with that roster. Maybe it's cause the manager for an AL isn't that important. Fill out the lineup card and don't treat the pen like a idiot.

[Guest USAFChief]

The point is, if you fire a manager mid season it is because they are clearly under-preforming by a very large amount and that by doing so it will hopefully cause the team to start playing well again. Are the Twins really under-preforming there skill set? Not really, most people said this would be a 90 loss team heading into the season, so its not like they were predicted to win 90 games and are all of a sudden playing like crap.

It might be just me, but I think they ARE underperforming their skill set. Bad pitching isn't the only thing wrong with this team's performance. See original post.

[Mike Sixel]

Managers are super important...they are the leaders of the whole team. They coach, they fill out lineup cards, they keep guys working hard day after day (and much more I'm sure). They are no different than any other manager in a business. Some of us, clearly not all, think that he's failed at coach and lineup/strategy for a few years now. I've never questioned their effort.

[DaveW]

One bad series...try again. NTM they offereed him 5 million to come back, Torree turned it down.

 

NTM it's not like Giardi has had any issues winning with that roster. Maybe it's cause the manager for an AL isn't that important. Fill out the lineup card and don't treat the pen like a idiot.

Lol, you have to be pretty dense to think the Yankees didn't run him out of town.

 

They didn't offer him 5 million, they offered him 3 million (a two million dollar paycut) where if he won the world series he would make 5 million, that was as disrespectful as offers come.

[James]

Maddon, Leyland, La Russa, Torre, Francona, Mattingly, Tom Kelly, Showalter (maybe). I'm sure there are others, but nobody has thrown out a reasonable replacement yet.

I have thought of some people. I really have no idea how they would fit or if they'd be interested. I doubt any of those guys would come to MN, but you never know.

 

Ryne Sandberg - Baseball America's Manager of the year for 2011. I know other people are going to say his name, but it is known that he's looking for a major league manager job.

[DaveW]

It might be just me, but I think they ARE underperforming their skill set. Bad pitching isn't the only thing wrong with this team's performance. See original post.

But are they under-performing enough to justify canning the guy in the middle of the season? IMO No.

[Brock Beauchamp]

What's Paul Molitor up to nowadays? I forgot where he stood on the possibility of managing for the Twins when there were rumblings about it a few years back.

[DPJ]

Lol, you have to be pretty dense to think the Yankees didn't run him out of town.

 

They didn't offer him 5 million, they offered him 3 million (a two million dollar paycut) where if he won the world series he would make 5 million, that was as disrespectful as offers come.

5 million base pay with another 1 million in bonuses.

 

5 million, which still made him the highiest paid manager in the game. What an insult and knee jerk reaction from the Yankees.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3069115

[DaveW]

5 million base pay with another 1 million in bonuses.

 

5 million, which still made him the highiest paid manager in the game. What an insult and knee jerk reaction from the Yankees.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3069115

I guess my numbers were off...regardless its still a complete slap in the face to ask the guy to take a paycut. Especially when its the damn Yankees!!

 

They ran him out of town, everyone up here knew it, apparently some rubes fell for it though...

[Riverbrian]

How does Gardy continue to get a free pass from some people for the complete lack of fundamentals this team has showed over the last couple season?

 

This isn't a young team with a bunch of fresh from the minors position players. All spring training all we heard was getting back to the basic and spending extra time on the simple things. But yet vet major league players continue to make boneheaded errors and just stupid plays all over the field.

1. Complete lack of Fundamentals is embellishing a bit. lol... Sub-standard... I'll go with that. They still make the right play more times than they don't. It has improved from last year and improved a lot.

 

2. The Team is put together by the GM. The GM is in the process of changing things or at least I hope he is. Gardy is working with what he is handed. Although, I will not discount that Gardy has some say or I can assume that his opinion on players is part of the process so not a complete free pass from me.

 

3. You can lead a horse to water.

 

I think it's time for a change... at the end of the year but let's give the Gardy the respect he deserves and give him a closed door option of walking away.

 

Also, when I talk about teams like the Mets and Orioles this year over achieving based on the roster. The 2010 Indians and D-Backs. The 2009 Padres. I also believe that the Twins have been an over achieving team for the past decade prior to the collapse... The Twins typically have not been a team that anyone would consider loaded and they have been a tough team to beat in years past. Gardy should get some credit for that if people want to blame him for what is happening now.

[James]

What's Paul Molitor up to nowadays? I forgot where he stood on the possibility of managing for the Twins when there were rumblings about it a few years back.

He would be on my list as well. He didn't really work out as a hitting coach for Seattle all those years ago, but who knows how well he would end up doing as a manager.