A new unwritten rule?

[Otto von Ballpark]

Has Rosario made any comment about the play?

 

I see LaVelle at the Star Tribune called it "ill-advised" without really noting the play's success.  Dozier listed things the team did poorly yesterday including "running bases" and I wonder if he too was referring to the Rosario steal.

 

I think the MLB highlight label was more accurate, "heads-up baserunning."

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Has Rosario made any comment about the play?

 

I see LaVelle at the Star Tribune called it "ill-advised" without really noting the play's success.  Dozier listed things the team did poorly yesterday including "running bases" and I wonder if he too was referring to the Rosario steal.

 

I think the MLB highlight label was more accurate, "heads-up baserunning."

Watching the replay, Dick also seemed to compliment Rosario for doing what Plouffe did previously. We'll see if Dick spins it the other way now, pretends it never happened, or goes out on a limb and maintains that it was the heads up play. Probably the best option for him is B.

[spinowner]

The more I think about this the more it bugs me. I didn't see the game; did Molitor take Rosario out of the game after this happened? This was not a stupid play. It was an easy steal for a team that needs a few sparks. As I said above, Molitor made a career out of taking advantage of every edge he could find. To say anything remotely critical about Rosario goes against how he played the game himself. I think Molitor owes Rosario and the team an apology.

[ScrapTheNickname]

 

Here's the video of it -- MLB titles it "Rosario's heads-up baserunning"

 

http://m.mlb.com/video/v710269083?game_pk=447467

 

The free condensed game video has a wide-angle replay too, just after the 10 minute mark:

 

http://m.mlb.com/video/v710633683?game_pk=447467

 

It's a little closer than a completely "free" base or defensive indifference, but he timed it quite well with the pitcher looking to home and coming set, and the third baseman not doing much of anything, and got in there pretty easily.

 

With Rosario's lead, jump, speed, and slide, I think the only way they even have a chance to get him out is with a very low throw for a quick tag, which would have been very difficult to achieve  And which would have had a decent chance of hitting the runner, getting past the third baseman, etc., perhaps allowing Rosario to score (exactly what Plouffe achieved on Castellanos on Monday night) or Suzuki to advance to second.  Another potential benefit.  (With the first baseman playing way off the bag too, Suzuki probably should have taken a larger lead once he saw Rosario breaking toward third and the throw going over there, in case the throw got away.  That would be my only criticism of the play.)

 

I really don't know what Molitor is thinking here.  The risk/reward ratio of this decision was probably better than most of our bunts this year.

Thanks for the videos. It was a much closer/riskier play than a lot of people seem to think. Of course, it's my opinion, but I understand Molitor being upset with that.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Thanks for the videos. It was a much closer/riskier play than a lot of people seem to think. Of course, it's my opinion, but I understand Molitor being upset with that.

To each his own, but the Tigers didn't even get a real tag attempt on him, by virtue of them being unprepared and out of position as Rosario got his great jump. To me, that suggests it wasn't particularly close/risky.

[IndianaTwin]

1-Agreed after watching -- this seems like something Molitor would have done as a player and been applauded for. According to http://www.nssl.noaa.gov/users/brooks/public_html/feda/datasets/expectedruns.html, it was worth .15 runs.

 

2-If we're concerned about boneheaded, take a look at Plouffe's slide on the previous play at the same video. http://m.mlb.com/video/v710633683/51816-condensed-game-mindet/?game_pk=447467. Why do guys slide beside the base and reach out with their hand to tag the base? They are giving up four feet or so. As a result, he made a play sorta close that wouldn't have even garnered a tag if he slid straight to the plate. And that doesn't even take into account the possibility of getting your hand stepped on. I'm not picking on Plouffe -- it seems like an epidemic these days. Has anyone else seen this and been bugged by it? 
 

[bluechipper]

 

Watching the replay, Dick also seemed to compliment Rosario for doing what Plouffe did previously. We'll see if Dick spins it the other way now, pretends it never happened, or goes out on a limb and maintains that it was the heads up play. Probably the best option for him is B.

Speaking of Dick (and Bert), I like how they're getting annoyed by the mess that everyone is watching too. They usually would have given Dozier the benefit of the doubt on that pop fly that he dropped, but they didn't do that yesterday.

[Bill Brown69]

"I will stop trying to steal bases when trailing as soon as the team in the lead stops trying to hit home runs."

 

Rickey Henderson

[Guest]

Molitor blew it as a leader. Anytime someone screws up enough to need a demotion, you tell them you're demoting them to work on X, Y and Z, and you find something to compliment them about, such as good effort or a heads-up play. Even if it were a mistake, despite the general consensus that it was not, this is such a rare event that correcting the player, particularly in public, will provide no long-term benefits, but could cause other players to become less aggressive in non-book situations, as well as possibly impact Rosario.

 

OTOH, it could have been a perfect pat-on-the-back, but Molitor may be past the point where he can control his reactions. It happens to the best of us.

 

Btw, I'm probably in the minority, but I think sending Rosario down before Buxton or Kepler are ready is a mistake, because the Twins are now going to play two of the worst outfielders in the majors, and think there's a good chance that he'll get little out of it, a la Oswaldo Arcia in AAA last year.

[TheLeviathan]

 

"I will stop trying to steal bases when trailing as soon as the team in the lead stops trying to hit home runs."

 

Rickey Henderson

 

Well said Mr. Henderson.

[Han Joelo]

Thanks for this thread.  I didn't see the game, and I'm not what you would call well-versed in all these unwritten rules, especially the non-sportsmanship ones.  As somewhat of a baseball outsider, I'm baffled.  This team needs a spark, anything at all to turn the tide.  I would imagine Rosario's confidence in just about every aspect of his game is pretty shaky, but I'll bet the one area he felt pretty damn confident about was his ability to steal that base.

 

I actually didn't have much of a problem, way-back-when, with Sano trying for a triple.  As stated above, why not--maybe results in a wild throw and a run and a rally. With this team, better odds of that than expecting someone to actually get a hit in that situation.  Desperate times…maybe not with Molitor. I guess he'll go down with his head held high.

[jimmer]

 

Speaking of Dick (and Bert), I like how they're getting annoyed by the mess that everyone is watching too. They usually would have given Dozier the benefit of the doubt on that pop fly that he dropped, but they didn't do that yesterday.

But they also put all the blame on the players.  So they believe the mess is all about the players and not the roster put together or the management of it. It's always been hard to value their opinion on things and it's getting harder each year.

 

And, as a side note, some research before doing a broadcast, so they don't get info blatantly wrong, wouldn't hurt them either.

[Hrbowski]

I saw the steal and was impressed with Rosario, but he shouldn't have stolen third in the game because he should have been at Rochester already.

[USAFChief]

I obviously don't know, but given the amount of horrible base running we've seen this year, I'd be willing to bet this very thing has been a subject of more than one verbal "memo" from Molitor.  "Hey...we're making some really poor decisions on the bases.  Let's think out there...not do this, that and the other, for example, while remembering to always do these other things."

 

Then Plouffe steals third, in what was a pretty questionable situation the other day, and Molitor adds to his message:  "And remember...in that situation, the gain isn't worth the gamble, so don't do that.  Everyone on board?  OK, then."

 

And then a day later, Rosario, already in hot water over many other things, does pretty much that exact thing.

 

I've been a manager of people before...I'd lose my temper at some point too given similar circumstances.

 

 

[jimmer]

 

I saw the steal and was impressed with Rosario, but he shouldn't have stolen third in the game because he should have been at Rochester already.

Or, on the play before, he could have tagged up at 2B on an obvious fly out and advanced to third on the throw home instead of going halfway between 2B and 3B and running back to 2B after the catch as the throw went home.  Then there was him throwing home when he had no chance and letting a runner advance to a base that shouldn't have been able to, and not going aggressively after a fly ball that dropped between him and shortstop.

 

And so on, and so on.  Continuous mental mistakes get old as a fan imagine as a manager.  Puig and Gomez type of mental mistakes without the offensive tools to counter.

[Mr. Brooks]

Or, on the play before, he could have tagged up at 2B on an obvious fly out and advanced to third on the throw home instead of going halfway between 2B and 3B and running back to 2B after the catch as the throw went home. Then there was him throwing home when he had no chance and letting a runner advance to a base that he shouldn't have been able to, and not going aggressively after a fly ball that dropped between him and shortstop.

 

And so on, and so on. Continuous mental mistakes get old as a fan imagine as a manager. Puig and Gomez type of mental mistakes without the offensive tools to counter.

That stuff is true. My issue is why do the veterans seem to get a free pass on this stuff?

[jimmer]

 

That stuff is true. My issue is why do the veterans seem to get a free pass on this stuff?

yeah, I don't know, except maybe track records of veterans having rare instances of mental errors instead of young players who have no history of smart play continuously making the same mental mistakes over and over.

[Mr. Brooks]

yeah, I don't know, except maybe track records of veterans having rare instances of mental errors instead of young players who have no history of smart play continuously making the same mental mistakes over and over.

I'm not sure that is true. I seem to recall Rosario getting praised for smart plays plenty of times last year, on these forums.

[jimmer]

 

I'm not sure that is true. I seem to recall Rosario getting praised for smart plays plenty of times last year, on these forums.

yeah, I don't know what games were being watched then.  Perhaps the unsustainable triples and OF assists clouded the eyes of some a bit.  Some have said his 2015 offensive season was pretty awesome, even though he got on base less than 29% of the time.  In any event, he's a second year player who has already made more mental mistakes this year than should happen in a couple seasons combined. Sophomore slumps are one thing, mental mistakes over and over are inexcusable.

 

If he plays smart, he has very good defensive tools, but like Gomez when he first came up, if he can't put the smarts together with that, that's a problem..

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Or, on the play before, he could have tagged up at 2B on an obvious fly out and advanced to third on the throw home

The only problem is that the sac fly was medium deep near the left field foul line, not to right field or center. The throw to the plate came right through the area of third base. It would have been easily cut off and Rosario would have been an easy out.

[jimmer]

 

The only problem is that the sac fly was medium deep near the left field foul line, not to right field or center. The throw to the plate came right through the area of third base. It would have been easily cut off and Rosario would have been an easy out.

I disagree, it wasn't going to get cut off.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I disagree, it wasn't going to get cut off.

I watched it again. You are right. The infield cutoff was almost standing on third base instead of deeper near to the plate, and the throw went over his head by plenty.