HOF vote/Congrats Ken Griffey Jr.

[gunnarthor]

http://bbwaa.com/

 

Griffey was a near unanimous pick - 3 votes shy of 100%.  Piazza got in as well.

Bagwell, Raines and Hoffman were all around 70% and might get in next year - Raines has one year left on the ballot, I believe.

 

Nomar and Jim Edmonds fell off - I'm not sure they are HOFers but they have some good arguments.  Both, for example had more 5 WAR seasons than Tim Raines and in fewer seasons.  But voters tend to vote for compiled totals as opposed to seasons, which hurts them. 

[darin617]

Nice to see Ken Griffey Jr  making the HOF today. I would like to hear what 3 writers decided to leave him off their ballot.

Mike Piazza on the other hand I could have cared less that he made it. He was accused of being a PED user.

[biggentleben]

 

Nice to see Ken Griffey Jr  making the HOF today. I would like to hear what 3 writers decided to leave him off their ballot.

Mike Piazza on the other hand I could have cared less that he made it. He was accused of being a PED user.

 

So he's automatically guilty? Odd, seeing as the biggest social phenomenon in the country right now is a Netflix series about someone's right to the assumption of innocence being robbed from him.

[Minniman]

If not for injuries, Garciaparra would be in.

 

His situation is a lot like that of Tony Oliva.

[HitInAPinch]

From ESPN's article on Griffey and Piazza entering the HOF:

 

"Piazza and Bagwell were drawn into the steroids controversy by some who pointed out their powerful physiques, but both have denied using performance-enhancing drugs and no substantive accusations have been made."

[nicksaviking]

So he's automatically guilty? Odd, seeing as the biggest social phenomenon in the country right now is a Netflix series about someone's right to the assumption of innocence being robbed from him.

Outside of Wisconsin, going to jail and going to the HOF hopefully require different standards of proof.

[Thrylos]

 

 

Mike Piazza on the other hand I could have cared less that he made it. He was accused of being a PED user.

 

Hank Aaron has admitted to have used now banned PEDs.  How do you feel about that?

[jimmer]

I have issues with players being held out of the HOF due to suspicion of taking PEDS.  I wonder how many people would enjoy not getting hired for a good paying job because the hiring authority went on-line and read unsubstantiated rumors about them being a spouse abuser or a thief?  Anyone can say anything about anyone and people can run with it.

[gunnarthor]

 

I have issues with players being held out of the HOF due to suspicion of taking PEDS.  I wonder how many people would enjoy not getting hired for a good paying job because the hiring authority went on-line and read unsubstantiated rumors about them being a spouse abuser or a thief?  Anyone can say anything about anyone and people can run with it.

True, but some of these rumors aren't "unsubstantiated" and the players aren't being penalized - they simply aren't getting an honor that some think they do not deserve.  Not quite the same as not being hired because someone alleged X beat up his wife. 

[jimmer]

People deciding someone, who is otherwise deserving, doesn't actually deserve something based on ugly rumors (PED rumors, criminal activities rumors).  And the person wanting the job has no recourse when they aren't hired, much like the people on the HOF ballot.

 

If the reason people think they don't deserve to get in is because they are suspected of taking PEDs, then a deserving HOF career is not being recognized for what it was. Some may think no big deal, but to the players who put up worthy careers, it is to them.

 

Every person who is one of the very best at what they did deserve to be recognized for it and shouldn't have to. And let's not pretend that having HOFer doesn't help players financially.  Also, let's not minimize it because it's a bunch of rich people we are talking about as opposed to Joe Average looking for work.  

 

Some people seem to think it's okay to throw accusations around all willy nilly on the internet.  In fact, some think it's just fun and don't care whether the have anything to back it up or not.  They just don't like a person or a point of view, so the accusations fly. Some of these players are dealing with this.

[nicksaviking]

I have issues with players being held out of the HOF due to suspicion of taking PEDS.  I wonder how many people would enjoy not getting hired for a good paying job because the hiring authority went on-line and read unsubstantiated rumors about them being a spouse abuser or a thief?  Anyone can say anything about anyone and people can run with it.

These guys aren't being denied jobs. They had jobs that paid well, perhaps due to the subject of the unsubstantiated rumors. These guys are being denied a free plaque and a letterman's jacket with a HOF logo on it. Those giving away the free plaque [NOT TO LEAVE THESE PREMISES] and jacket get to make the rules.

 

I just don't get the outrage. Anyone who doesn't like it can start their own Hall of Fame. Well that's probably trademarked, you might have to come up with your own name.

[jimmer]

Apparently many people think it's okay to deny someone an honor because of unsubstantiated rumors. Since so many could never be in these players' shoes, it's easy to blow it off as unimportant.

 

I'm guessing many of these people would have a real issue with it if it were them, or if they were denied something due to nothing more than accusations.  It's easy to claim the moral high ground when you're not the one being accused (and those accusations deny you something you've earned).  It's also easy to blow off an honor you spent practically your whole life working towards when you aren't the one who did the work.

 

Anyway, not going to change anyone's mind, of course, so to the topic at hand" CONGRATS to Ken Griffey Jr.  Joining the elite of the elite as you well deserve it.

[gunnarthor]

 

Apparently many people think it's okay to deny someone an honor because of unsubstantiated rumors. Since so many could never be in these players' shoes, it's easy to blow it off as unimportant.

 

I'm guessing many of these people would have a real issue with it if it were them, or if they were denied something due to nothing more than accusations.  It's easy to claim the moral high ground when you're not the one being accused (and those accusations deny you something you've earned).  It's also easy to blow off an honor you spent practically your whole life working towards.

 

Anyway, to the topic at hand CONGRATS to Ken Griffey Jr.  Joining the elite of the elite as you well deserve it.

No one thinks anyone is getting denied something because of an unsubstantiated rumor.  Some of the guys are linked to PEDs and the links are a lot more than mere rumors.  For some, it's confessions, others it's failed tests and others its third party admissions.  And many of them have more than one. 

 

Additionally, many of these people probably received pretty big benefits from using PEDs (which is why they used them in the first place) while others didn't cheat. 

[Dman]

 

I have issues with players being held out of the HOF due to suspicion of taking PEDS.  I wonder how many people would enjoy not getting hired for a good paying job because the hiring authority went on-line and read unsubstantiated rumors about them being a spouse abuser or a thief?  Anyone can say anything about anyone and people can run with it.

 

While I agree that not getting in due to "suspicion" and no real proof could leave someone innocent on the outside looking in.  Too often where there is smoke there is fire.  We have seen it many times throughout the sports scene.  Lance Armstrong comes to mind for me because I actually really believed him.  There is a period of time in baseball where many players took peds and unfortunately that leaves all under some suspicion.  The players association didn't allow testing blame them for the lack of trust we have in what stats many players in that time period produced.

 

For me honoring players who cheated to get the stats they got are not worthy of the Hall of fame and the Hall stands for the exact opposite of what they represent.  If they added a Hall of shame they could put them in there and say these are the players who sold their integrity to try and gain fame.  The rules are there to be followed until there is an agreement to change them.

[Vanimal46]

 

I would like to hear what 3 writers decided to leave him off their ballot.

Whoever didn't vote for him is just trying to attract attention to themselves. I don't care who they are, and hope they stay out of the spotlight. There's no reason not to vote Griffey Jr. into the HOF. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

I'm tired of people using the PED argument (particularly against players who are only suspected of using PEDs) to keep deserving players out of the HoF.

 

Bonds was a HoF player before BALCO came around. Clemens was a HoF player before PEDs came into prominence. Piazza's use was mostly speculation.

 

There are a half dozen guys who should be in the HoF but aren't because BBWAA writers are overly stubborn and refuse to critically examine the game's history of abuse and cheating.

 

The only excuse for a voter to not elect Griffey is because the voter filled their ballot with ten guys they believe deserve to be in the Hall but can't get the votes... And I'm extremely skeptical that was the thought process for those three writers.

 

Baseball needs to start holding these voters accountable for their votes.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

While I agree that not getting in due to "suspicion" and no real proof could leave someone innocent on the outside looking in.  Too often where there is smoke there is fire.  We have seen it many times throughout the sports scene.  Lance Armstrong comes to mind for me because I actually really believed him.  There is a period of time in baseball where many players took peds and unfortunately that leaves all under some suspicion.  The players association didn't allow testing blame them for the lack of trust we have in what stats many players in that time period produced.

 

For me honoring players who cheated to get the stats they got are not worthy of the Hall of fame and the Hall stands for the exact opposite of what they represent.  If they added a Hall of shame they could put them in there and say these are the players who sold their integrity to try and gain fame.  The rules are there to be followed until there is an agreement to change them.

Every player accused of using PEDs, while technically being a "cheater", is ten times the human being Ty Cobb was during his lifetime. Cobb was a deplorable human being whose mere presence degrades the Hall more than any drug user.

 

Yet there he is, sitting in the Hall.

 

Also, don't lay all the blame on the Player's Association for drug testing. The owners were just as reluctant to implement testing in the 90s, as two PED users are what brought baseball back from the dead in 1998. This was a systemic failure on all levels of the game and no one cared because MONEY. Hell, even journalists turned a blind eye to the situation for a decade... But NOW they climb up onto their soapboxes to vilify these players, long after taking the high ground could have improved the situation. They had a decade to do something about this but stood back and watched it happen.

 

Why do we only blame the players?

[biggentleben]

While I agree that not getting in due to "suspicion" and no real proof could leave someone innocent on the outside looking in. Too often where there is smoke there is fire. We have seen it many times throughout the sports scene. Lance Armstrong comes to mind for me because I actually really believed him. There is a period of time in baseball where many players took peds and unfortunately that leaves all under some suspicion. The players association didn't allow testing blame them for the lack of trust we have in what stats many players in that time period produced.

 

For me honoring players who cheated to get the stats they got are not worthy of the Hall of fame and the Hall stands for the exact opposite of what they represent. If they added a Hall of shame they could put them in there and say these are the players who sold their integrity to try and gain fame. The rules are there to be followed until there is an agreement to change them.

I agree! Let's kick out Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, Mickey Mantle, Paul Molitor, Rickey Henderson, and Nolan Ryan. All were accused (or have admitted to) either taking something to enhance their game or working to ensure the game's competition was kept from being equal. That'll teach those blatant cheaters!!

[mikelink45]

Congratulations Griffey and Piazza.  As for the rest of the indignation - who cares?  Do you get a higher position on the wall if you get 100% instead of 99?  We have lots to debate about the hall, but the fact that Nomar, Edmonds, and Oliva don't make it does not harm anything.  In fact we have written more about Oliva not making it than we would have if he were in.  

 

We never have 10 worthy candidates in one year so the only 10 votes really means quit wasting them on marginal or sentimental players.  I would prefer that there is only 3 - 5 years of eligibility.  Bring up, vote them in or out and move to the next list.  

 

In the meantime, lets celebrate who gets in and forget the rest. 

[Dman]

 

I agree! Let's kick out Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, Mickey Mantle, Paul Molitor, Rickey Henderson, and Nolan Ryan. All were accused (or have admitted to) either taking something to enhance their game or working to ensure the game's competition was kept from being equal. That'll teach those blatant cheaters!!

 

I have no problem with that.  If they cheated to gain advantage then how great were they?

[Dman]

 

Every player accused of using PEDs, while technically being a "cheater", is ten times the human being Ty Cobb was during his lifetime. Cobb was a deplorable human being whose mere presence degrades the Hall more than any drug user.

 

Yet there he is, sitting in the Hall.

 

Also, don't lay all the blame on the Player's Association for drug testing. The owners were just as reluctant to implement testing in the 90s, as two PED users are what brought baseball back from the dead in 1998. This was a systemic failure on all levels of the game and no one cared because MONEY. Hell, even journalists turned a blind eye to the situation for a decade... But NOW they climb up onto their soapboxes to vilify these players, long after taking the high ground could have improved the situation. They had a decade to do something about this but stood back and watched it happen.

 

Why do we only blame the players?

 

I never liked Ty Cobb and never understood why he was looked up to as an example of how to play the game, but I always figured I was one of the very few who thought that way.

 

Money probably is a better place to put the blame and I agree it seems most everyone turned a blind eye but without testing what could be proven anyway.  I guess greed wins most of the time.

 

I just have a problem idolizing someone who doesn't play by the rules and sets up advantages for themselves.  It leaves me guessing if they are really great or not.

[drjim]

Congratulations Griffey and Piazza. As for the rest of the indignation - who cares? Do you get a higher position on the wall if you get 100% instead of 99? We have lots to debate about the hall, but the fact that Nomar, Edmonds, and Oliva don't make it does not harm anything. In fact we have written more about Oliva not making it than we would have if he were in.

 

We never have 10 worthy candidates in one year so the only 10 votes really means quit wasting them on marginal or sentimental players. I would prefer that there is only 3 - 5 years of eligibility. Bring up, vote them in or out and move to the next list.

 

In the meantime, lets celebrate who gets in and forget the rest.

Thank you for this. So much indignation about missing a couple votes and if some marginal players picked up a vote or three. Two deserving players got in and that should be celebrated. In any large group of people you are going to have some outliers, ignore them and celebrate the end result.

 

I personally want Clemens and Bonds in, but understand why it hasn't happened. Aside from Bagwell missing, strikes me as an acceptable class. I like that it is so hard to get in, that even 4 in is a huge outlier, and Bagwell and Raines seem well positioned for next year.

[gunnarthor]

 

I'm tired of people using the PED argument (particularly against players who are only suspected of using PEDs) to keep deserving players out of the HoF.

 

Bonds was a HoF player before BALCO came around. Clemens was a HoF player before PEDs came into prominence. Piazza's use was mostly speculation.

 

There are a half dozen guys who should be in the HoF but aren't because BBWAA writers are overly stubborn and refuse to critically examine the game's history of abuse and cheating.

 

The only excuse for a voter to not elect Griffey is because the voter filled their ballot with ten guys they believe deserve to be in the Hall but can't get the votes... And I'm extremely skeptical that was the thought process for those three writers.

 

Baseball needs to start holding these voters accountable for their votes.

According to nearly all polls, most fans don't want PED users in the HOF.  Most players in the HOF don't want PED users in the HOF.  And most BBWAA don't think PED users should be in the HOF.  You can complain that they aren't treating all forms of cheating the same, but so what?  There probably is a difference between physically altering your body (and making opponents play catch up) and a spitting on a baseball.  

 

I don't really care about this all that much anymore.  If I had a vote, I'd always vote for 10 players.  I'd probably vote for the guys I thought were clean first but I'd still vote for the PED guys if I had room.  I think PED use should be a consideration in a vote but it probably shouldn't be the end-all be-all.  Although it'll be interesting to see how voters will treat players like Manny and Arod who got caught after testing was implemented.

 

As for the 100% gripe, who cares?  My god, really?  We're going to waste time complaining that 450 people weren't unanimous on a stupid baseball honor?  That just seems unhealthy.  

[Don Walcott]

The Hall of Fame became a forum for debating the moral worthiness of Pete Rose, and his gambling.  The Hall of Fame vote then became the forum for debating sabermetrics v. traditional measures of greatness, particularly in reference to Jack Morris.  Now, it's inevitably become the forum for debating the morality or ethics of cheating by way of taking steroids.  These are all interesting debates, and I don't think anyone is wasting their time if they engage in them.  Nor do I think anyone has a definitive answer.  And everyone has a right to their opinion.  It's a good debate to have among fans, even though we may be tired of it.

 

I personally don't want to see steroid users in the Hall.  However, because MLB was a shambles at recognizing a problem, then doing something about it, there is simply no way of knowing whose numbers are tainted, nor to what degree.  Not every user is willing to admit it, and we know some will go to their grave denying it even though they did it.  And even if we did know who used, we don't know how much it affected their HoF worthiness.  The individual players should not be held blameless, however MLB and the teams should bear some responsibility for it.  In about ten years, I hope, all of this will be history, and we can move on to the next debate.

[biggentleben]

I have no problem with that. If they cheated to gain advantage then how great were they?

You really believe anyone would support a HOF without legends such as Ruth, Aaron, Mays, and Henderson in it? That's the point. You can't change the past. The rules have changed now. A guy caught taking the same stuff as Aaron/Mays now is suspended. Until the mid 1990s, though, those drugs were rampant in the sport. Do you eliminate the guys who did it before it was outlawed or accept that as part of the game?

 

When you have someone with a failed test or suspension, that's a much different thing, but suspicions swaying anything is BS.

[bluechipper]

 

Hank Aaron has admitted to have used now banned PEDs.  How do you feel about that?

Using what Aaron used didn't have anywhere close to the effect of what the steroids did, so that's not even really a comparison.

[Dman]

 

You really believe anyone would support a HOF without legends such as Ruth, Aaron, Mays, and Henderson in it? That's the point. You can't change the past. The rules have changed now. A guy caught taking the same stuff as Aaron/Mays now is suspended. Until the mid 1990s, though, those drugs were rampant in the sport. Do you eliminate the guys who did it before it was outlawed or accept that as part of the game?

When you have someone with a failed test or suspension, that's a much different thing, but suspicions swaying anything is BS.

 

 

For me personally if I had proof I would take them out.  What do their accomplishments mean if they were not on a level playing field?  If the Twins get to have 4 strikes per batter and the other team 3 and the Twins have great seasons what does that mean?  If Tori Hunter had taken Peds maybe his numbers would be hall worthy but he played by the rules instead.  Maybe Tori should be voted in the hall because his numbers are close enough that if he took peds he would be in.

 

I admit I am an odd duck but integrity and fairness means more to me than statistics.  If you cheat yeah obviously you can be better than other players.  If you are really good you don't need to cheat.

 

I have to believe all of the players in PED era knew they were cheating but they knew they couldn't be caught.  They wanted an advantage and they took it.  I personally don't think they should be rewarded for that.  I think a natural consequence is exclusion.

[biggentleben]

Using what Aaron used didn't have anywhere close to the effect of what the steroids did, so that's not even really a comparison.

No, it allowed him and others to play on days when they were mentally and physically exhausted and gave increased focus and attentiveness on the field and at bat, which would certainly assist in numbers.

 

Many of what we know as PEDs from the 90s and early 2000s were not (and are not) able to affect performance as much as greenies did.

[bluechipper]

 

No, it allowed him and others to play on days when they were mentally and physically exhausted and gave increased focus and attentiveness on the field and at bat, which would certainly assist in numbers.

Many of what we know as PEDs from the 90s and early 2000s were not (and are not) able to affect performance as much as greenies did.

Is that why there was a gigantic offensive explosion over a short time period when Aaron played?

[biggentleben]

For me personally if I had proof I would take them out. What do their accomplishments mean if they were not on a level playing field? If the Twins get to have 4 strikes per batter and the other team 3 and the Twins have great seasons what does that mean? If Tori Hunter had taken Peds maybe his numbers would be hall worthy but he played by the rules instead. Maybe Tori should be voted in the hall because his numbers are close enough that if he took peds he would be in.

 

I admit I am an odd duck but integrity and fairness means more to me than statistics. If you cheat yeah obviously you can be better than other players. If you are really good you don't need to cheat.

 

I have to believe all of the players in PED era knew they were cheating but they knew they couldn't be caught. They wanted an advantage and they took it. I personally don't think they should be rewarded for that. I think a natural consequence is exclusion.

Any time there is a competition, our human instinct is to find the way to get an edge, and for most of these guys, it wasn't even an edge that was against the rules. When you play cards, there's strategy involved, and sometimes you catch wind of another player's hand through process of elimination. Is that cheating or strategy? Once baseball made the rules to ban certain PEDs, then anyone punished for taking them absolutely has their name tarnished. Manny Ramirez had arguably the best right handed swing I've ever seen, but he was caught cheating, and his numbers are then rightly called into question. Outside of a positive test, it's simply a gross case of proven guilty until proven innocent, and that's completely backward!