PED guys

[gunnarthor]

http://www.si.com/mlb/2015/12/27/ryan-howard-ryan-zimmerman-deny-hgh-claims

 

Lost in the Manning hoopla was the fact that the Al Jazeera report on unlawful PED use also included allegations that Ryan Howard, Taylor Teagarden and Ryan Zimmerman used Delta-2 or HGH.  Like Manning, Zimmerman is denying the allegations and the Nats are standing behind him.

 

The report can be found here.  It argues that so long as players know what the testing rules are, they can always hide from it (Lance Armstrong passed 500 tests, ARod never failed one) and the only way to catch them is through investigations.  It notes that players will travel to other countries to do things that they can't do in America.  Interesting report.

[drjim]

I personally am in favor of using HGH, especially to recover from an injury.

 

Historic numbers don't mean a whole lot to mean outside of the context there are produced in, and I want to see the best players play the most games possible.

[scottz]

 

I personally am in favor of using HGH, especially to recover from an injury.

 

Historic numbers don't mean a whole lot to mean outside of the context there are produced in, and I want to see the best players play the most games possible.

I also don't think it would be a horrible thing to have a policy that allowed medically supervised use of various drugs to recover from injuries. I'd be in favor of something that allowed it when a player is put on the DL, and that enforced even longer/more severe suspensions for use outside of allowed recovery times.

[Parker Hageman]

It argues that so long as players know what the testing rules are, they can always hide from it (Lance Armstrong passed 500 tests, ARod never failed one) and the only way to catch them is through investigations.  It notes that players will travel to other countries to do things that they can't do in America.  Interesting report.

 

 

That's basically the crux of the matter in the book "Game of Shadows". Really, the only reason that Bonds and BALCO were brought down at the time is because a rival track and field coach turned in a vial of the substance everyone was using and not being detected by tests. 

 

[bluechipper]

 

I personally am in favor of using HGH, especially to recover from an injury.

 

Historic numbers don't mean a whole lot to mean outside of the context there are produced in, and I want to see the best players play the most games possible.

So a fair playing field means nothing to you?

[James]

 

http://www.si.com/mlb/2015/12/27/ryan-howard-ryan-zimmerman-deny-hgh-claims

 

Lost in the Manning hoopla was the fact that the Al Jazeera report on unlawful PED use also included allegations that Ryan Howard, Taylor Teagarden and Ryan Zimmerman used Delta-2 or HGH.  Like Manning, Zimmerman is denying the allegations and the Nats are standing behind him.

 

The report can be found here.  It argues that so long as players know what the testing rules are, they can always hide from it (Lance Armstrong passed 500 tests, ARod never failed one) and the only way to catch them is through investigations.  It notes that players will travel to other countries to do things that they can't do in America.  Interesting report.

Howard and Zimmerman have both sent letters demanding a retraction to this report.  I'm guessing not much happens there. 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/sports/wp/2015/12/29/attorneys-for-ryan-zimmerman-ryan-howard-send-letters-to-al-jazeera-america-demanding-retraction/

 

Teagarden is a different story though.  He's on camera admitting to using Delta-2 and peptides, so I'd have to think he's probably going to get a suspension.  

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

So a fair playing field means nothing to you?

 

We are talking about recovery. Steroids are already used selectively to assist in recovery of injuries (Cortizone is a good example of that).  Lost in the legal/illegal storm here is that some of this stuff has medicinal benefits for not just athletes, but non-athletes as well. 

[bluechipper]

 

We are talking about recovery. Steroids are already used selectively to assist in recovery of injuries (Cortizone is a good example of that).  Lost in the legal/illegal storm here is that some of this stuff has medicinal benefits for not just athletes, but non-athletes as well. 

Ok I see. Using steroids for recovery seems like a very slippery slope though.

[tobi0040]

I do care if players cheat.  I think they take money from people that play the game straight up and that is the issue for me.

 

We have no way of knowing who did what in the last 20 years.  But here is my logic.  I will be the first to tell you it is not perfect but I think it is a pretty decent rule of thumb.

 

Anytime you have a doctor or quasi doctor peddling HGH, steriods, etc. and it is credible, any player linked to that doctor was likely juicing and seeking that doctor to cheat.   We have 1,000's upon thousands of doctors in this country.  If one was crooked and just so happened to be treating players across 3-4 sports who reside in different parts of the country, then it is more likely that they sought that doctor for PED's than some coincidence.

 

So Victor Conte, Dr. Anthony Galea, the clinic in Miami, etc.  Anyone on that list is likely cheating.

[drjim]

 

So a fair playing field means nothing to you?

 

You think it is "fair" now?

 

I'd rather put it more out in the open, take advantage of medical advances, give people a chance to maximize their earnings and injury recovery.

 

Much more preferable than the shadowy way it is currently conducted, where people who are best funded have the most access and ability to cover up usage, and primarily poorer players from the Dominican get popped due to negligence of trainers.

[gunnarthor]

My problem with PEDS in baseball has always been that it's uneven.  I have no doubt that the Viking players use just as many and the same PEDs as the Giants or Cowboys.  It's universal.  But baseball seemed to have a pretty uneven playing field.  In the report, a former MLB investigator estimates about 20% of players on the 40 man rosters are using some sort of PED.  And even at the peak of the steroid era, the reliable estimates were 50-60% of players.  It's never been even among teams and that gave the teams that were willing to roid a big advantage.

 

So I do get a little ticked when a team like the Yankees steam rolls its way to 100 wins and bounces us relying on guys like Giambi, Pettitte, ARod, etc.  And Brad Radke and Andy Pettitte were nearly identical pitchers for 12 years in IP and WAR but Radke broke down and had to retire while Pettitte got to keep playing and get HOF consideration.  

[biggentleben]

 

So a fair playing field means nothing to you?

 

HGH really does next to nothing for performance enhancing as far as making a player bigger, faster, or stronger. What HGH has truly been shown to do is allow an athlete to heal better (and frequently in a better, more healthy way) from injuries. Sometimes, it may allow an athlete to heal faster, but that has also not been proven to be consistent.

 

The media information and the medically proven information on HGH are two very different things. HGH is a recovery-enhancing substance, by and large. To bring up the complaints of an uneven playing field by citing HGH is an odd usage of that complaint, in my opinion.

 

There are plenty of synthetic and manufactured testosterones that will truly enhance a player's ability to perform their sport, and those are certainly not good.

 

As mentioned elsewhere, though, baseball has never really had a level playing field. For years it was because certain players were excluded, due to their color, religion, nationality, or what have you. Then, it was due to the widespread use of things like greenies and amphetamines. The drug craze of the 70s and 80s absolutely allowed many players to play multiple days in a row when their behavior should not have allowed them to do so. Ellis Valentine made that exact statement, saying that cocaine was the reason he both had a major league career and lost his major league career. Then you had the anabolic steroid explosion of the late 80s and early 90s that bled into the synthetics of the late 90s and early 2000s that still exist today.

[tobi0040]

 

My problem with PEDS in baseball has always been that it's uneven.  I have no doubt that the Viking players use just as many and the same PEDs as the Giants or Cowboys.  It's universal.  But baseball seemed to have a pretty uneven playing field.  In the report, a former MLB investigator estimates about 20% of players on the 40 man rosters are using some sort of PED.  And even at the peak of the steroid era, the reliable estimates were 50-60% of players.  It's never been even among teams and that gave the teams that were willing to roid a big advantage.

 

So I do get a little ticked when a team like the Yankees steam rolls its way to 100 wins and bounces us relying on guys like Giambi, Pettitte, ARod, etc.  And Brad Radke and Andy Pettitte were nearly identical D

 

You can add Johan to that list as well.  HOF career that basically fell apart at 32.  His numbers were all drastically better than Andy. ERA+ of 136 vs. 117.  ERA of 3.20 vs. 3.85.  9 k per 9 vs. 6.6. 

 

I have my suspisions about some Twins too though.   Specifically Punto, Lexi Casilla, and Tyner.  How else can you explain their speed?  And Tyner was a playoff caliber clean up hitter in a 12 year olds body.  Definitely on the juice

 

[Squirrel]

You can add Johan to that list as well. HOF career that basically fell apart at 32. His numbers were all drastically better than Andy. ERA+ of 136 vs. 117. ERA of 3.20 vs. 3.85. 9 k per 9 vs. 6.6.

 

I have my suspisions about some Twins too though. Specifically Punto, Lexi Casilla, and Tyner. How else can you explain their speed? And Tyner was a playoff caliber clean up hitter in a 12 year olds body. Definitely on the juice

Let's be careful throwing around accusations and suspicions without knowledge or proof. This thread isn't about finger pointing and witch hunting.

[Thrylos]

Read about that, and then looked at the source (Al Jazeera) and turned the virtual page...

[tobi0040]

For the record I was suggesting a player like Johan was likely clean relative to an admitted cheater like Pettitte.

[drjim]

 

For the record I was suggesting a player like Johan was likely clean relative to an admitted cheater like Pettitte.

 

And not sure if it was your point or not, but I would add on that there is a possibility that if Johan had used HGH to help his recovery maybe he would have had the chance to pitch in the last couple of years. As fans I think we are worse off that he didn't (assuming he didn't, without going down that road, shoulders are tricky no matter what).

[jimmer]

Clearly the Twins would have advanced past the Yankees in the playoffs a few times (if not every time), if the Yankees played PED free.

[gunnarthor]

 

Clearly the Twins would have advanced past the Yankees in the playoffs a few times (if not every time), if the Yankees played PED free.

 

Maybe, maybe not.  But it was an advantage that they had.  Perhaps their massive payroll was a bigger advantage.  But looking back it's a bit naive to assume that it wasn't an advantage that some teams had over other teams - unlike in football, where the doping has been pretty universal. 

[biggentleben]

 

Maybe, maybe not.  But it was an advantage that they had.  Perhaps their massive payroll was a bigger advantage.  But looking back it's a bit naive to assume that it wasn't an advantage that some teams had over other teams - unlike in football, where the doping has been pretty universal. 

 

That's also a pretty blanket assumption that the guys I've known in the NFL would scoff at. Does it happen? Sure. Is it even 25% of players? Doubtful. For some reason the average fan of baseball seems to sooth himself/herself with "well, ALL football players do it, so at least we're not football!". That's complete bunk. Heck, the NFL has a more stringent PED testing program than even the Olympics, so to assume that players in the NFL are taking PEDs rampantly is pretty bold, to say the least.

[Don Walcott]

 

My problem with PEDS in baseball has always been that it's uneven.  I have no doubt that the Viking players use just as many and the same PEDs as the Giants or Cowboys.  It's universal.  But baseball seemed to have a pretty uneven playing field.  In the report, a former MLB investigator estimates about 20% of players on the 40 man rosters are using some sort of PED.  And even at the peak of the steroid era, the reliable estimates were 50-60% of players.  It's never been even among teams and that gave the teams that were willing to roid a big advantage.

 

So I do get a little ticked when a team like the Yankees steam rolls its way to 100 wins and bounces us relying on guys like Giambi, Pettitte, ARod, etc.  And Brad Radke and Andy Pettitte were nearly identical pitchers for 12 years in IP and WAR but Radke broke down and had to retire while Pettitte got to keep playing and get HOF consideration.  

How about the 2012 Giants?  The franchise that had previously supported Barry Bonds in breaking records had another MVP candidate that year -- Melky Cabrera.  Without his 113 games of production, the Giants probably don't make the playoffs that year.  However, the team doesn't get punished.  Rather, the team benefits from getting MVP production out of a role player up until he gets suspended.  And you'd think, of all franchises, the Giants would have been able to spot the steroid user.  Somehow, teams that benefit from steroid users should be penalized.

[tobi0040]

I think some interesting points have been made about using HGH to aid in injury recovery. It would be nice but the cynical side of me looks at the number of MLB players using the adderall exemption for ADHD relative to the general population and thinks it would get abused too

[tobi0040]

Some data regarding Adderal. 116 players had the exemption, roughly 10 percent of the league.

 

I found on webMD 5 percent of adults have ADHD. My gut says a fraction of those are on medication

 

http://deadspin.com/5964744/1-in-10-mlb-players-took-adderall-this-season

[biggentleben]

 

I think some interesting points have been made about using HGH to aid in injury recovery. It would be nice but the cynical side of me looks at the number of MLB players using the adderall exemption for ADHD relative to the general population and thinks it would get abused too

 

I also believe that there are quite a few more people that would have the diagnosis if they didn't have the stigma of needing to see a mental health professional in many states to be diagnosed as an adult, so general population statistics are often skewed. Professional athletes are provided the best medical care, mental and physical, and therefore, are diagnosed more properly than the general population.

[gunnarthor]

I do think things like this Al Jeezera report are generally good in that they can shine a light on the impact of illegal PEDs in sports and, perhaps, how common it is.  Obviously, Ben and I have a vastly different idea of how widespread such practices are and Jimmer and I seem to have a pretty different view on how effective such PEDs are.  The more information that comes out will at least illuminate those issues.  

 

I also agree with Don that the PEDs penalties in baseball are only aimed at players - despite the Mitchell report saying the blame for PED use was on the players and baseball equally.  Teams should face some sort of punishment as well if MLB really wanted to get PEDs out of their sport. 

[jimbo92107]

PEDs became ridiculous in baseball when over-beefed roid monsters like McGwire, Sosa and Bonds made a mockery of home run totals. Then A-Roid did it and now it looks like Ryan Howard did it. 

 

I don't mind drugs used by doctors to help a player recover from injury. If HGH would help a fine pitcher like Johan Santana heal up his shoulder, why should we object? He's fun to watch. 

 

Fun to watch is important, but when a guy launches a ball 450 feet because he's all roided up, or throws pitches five mph faster because he's juiced, that's just too much of an unfair advantage. We want to watch a contest of skill, not a contest between drug makers. 

[Jham]

 

I personally am in favor of using HGH, especially to recover from an injury.

 

Historic numbers don't mean a whole lot to mean outside of the context there are produced in, and I want to see the best players play the most games possible.

 

Absurd.  HGH use carries significant side effects.  The problem with allowing use, any use, is that all players feel pressured to use then.  Final roster spots, free agent signings, and picking up options could all come down to those using versus not.  The pressure to use is over the top at that point.  It would be hard to have to retire or get sent down because some other guy was using and you weren't.

[jimmer]

Smoking carries significant side effects.  So does fast food, soda, alcohol, etc.  HGH helps recovery process and has side effects.  Describes a lot of medicine. I have no issues with it if it is: 

 

A: Used for healing

 

and

 

B: Approved ahead of time by the game of baseball

 

and

 

C: Prescribed and administered by doctors approved by MLB.

[adjacent]

The side effects of irresponsibly prescribed medication is what bother me the most. It is true that we live in a culture in which we can fix everything with a pill, but the side effects of this drugs are not trivial. Thinking of a 25-30 year old man or woman that messes all the physiology of his/her body for an advantage in sports is ridiculous, and totally contrary of what sports should be. Using it for healing might be a different matter, although it would be very difficult to avoid the abuses.

[biggentleben]

 

The side effects of irresponsibly prescribed medication is what bother me the most. It is true that we live in a culture in which we can fix everything with a pill, but the side effects of this drugs are not trivial. Thinking of a 25-30 year old man or woman that messes all the physiology of his/her body for an advantage in sports is ridiculous, and totally contrary of what sports should be. Using it for healing might be a different matter, although it would be very difficult to avoid the abuses.

 

Which is why you have doctors involved at every level and testing done to ensure that certain levels are kept by those using it. Not too hard to regulate. Psychotropic medications are incredibly dangerous when abused and manipulated, but when supervised in their use, they can be very effective for those they're intended for.