PED guys

[tobi0040]

I may be overly cynical, but in this country I believe you can go to a doctor and get prescribed about anything you want. So much of it revolves around the patient telling the doctor how in pain they are, how they can't maintain focus (Adderal), etc. I think this would get abused but I guess a bright spot would be we would have a record of who used and when. That would be a step forward.

[biggentleben]

 

I may be overly cynical, but in this country I believe you can go to a doctor and get prescribed about anything you want. So much of it revolves around the patient telling the doctor how in pain they are, how they can't maintain focus (Adderal), etc. I think this would get abused but I guess a bright spot would be we would have a record of who used and when. That would be a step forward.

 

You know a lot different doctors than I do, then.

[gunnarthor]

 

I may be overly cynical, but in this country I believe you can go to a doctor and get prescribed about anything you want. So much of it revolves around the patient telling the doctor how in pain they are, how they can't maintain focus (Adderal), etc. I think this would get abused but I guess a bright spot would be we would have a record of who used and when. That would be a step forward.

Yeah, the little information we have on PED use suggests that this isn't a big problem for players to overcome.

[biggentleben]

 

Yeah, the little information we have on PED use suggests that this isn't a big problem for players to overcome.

 

They aren't getting them from doctors, however. Perhaps some forms of HGH that are legal in the US but banned by pro sports, but otherwise, they're getting PEDs from non-medical sources in this country or going outside of the United States, so I'd not support besmirching the medical profession to make the point.

[gunnarthor]

 

They aren't getting them from doctors, however. Perhaps some forms of HGH that are legal in the US but banned by pro sports, but otherwise, they're getting PEDs from non-medical sources in this country or going outside of the United States, so I'd not support besmirching the medical profession to make the point.

Someone earlier made the point that an excessively large portion of MLB players had a prescription for adderdal.  While MLB "experts" had to sign off on it, a doctor must first prescribe it.

 

http://www.sbnation.com/mlb/2014/3/24/5543452/mlb-players-poll-PED-steroids-ryan-braun

[Darius]

 

Final roster spots, free agent signings, and picking up options could all come down to those using versus not.  The pressure to use is over the top at that point.  It would be hard to have to retire or get sent down because some other guy was using and you weren't.

 

That's already been happening for decades.

 

It seems that people think performance enhancing drugs have been removed the equation after the congressional inquiry, or were unique to a 5-10 year period in the MLB.  Various performance enhancers have been used since the beginning of time, they're just getting more sophisticated.  Some vigilantes got the league in hot water in the '00s, and they just got smarter about it.  Yes, the MLB itself, and all teams are complicit.

 

If you're not inclided towards conspiracy, take a look at the list of players that have tested positive for PEDs since the testing began, and you'll see that its a joke.  If it were legit, there would be many more big names on that list.  All the big money players that have been exposed were by whistle blowers:  Palmiero, Bonds, Clemens, Pettite, A-Rod initially, Giambi, McGwire.  Two exceptions:  A-Rod: retribution from the league - funny how he went 15 years of insanse numbers, while blowing up like a balloon, and never got busted until late in his career after running his mouth.  Braun:  a mistake that someone lkely got fired, hence the attempted chain of custody cop-out).

 

It's just a part of all professional sports.  The Golden-Boy players (Mauer, Morneu, etc.) that you all think are squeaky clean, likely aren't.

[biggentleben]

Someone earlier made the point that an excessively large portion of MLB players had a prescription for adderdal. While MLB "experts" had to sign off on it, a doctor must first prescribe it.

 

http://www.sbnation.com/mlb/2014/3/24/5543452/mlb-players-poll-PED-steroids-ryan-braun

Adderall is not in the same vein as your PED argument, unless you'd like to exclude Mantle, Mays, and basically anyone else from post-WWII until the 1990s from HOF, and the percentage of MLB players to general population has already been addressed.

[gunnarthor]

 

Adderall is not in the same vein as your PED argument, unless you'd like to exclude Mantle, Mays, and basically anyone else from post-WWII until the 1990s from HOF, and the percentage of MLB players to general population has already been addressed.

I was just pointing out how easily it is to get a doctor on board. 

[biggentleben]

 

I was just pointing out how easily it is to get a doctor on board. 

 

That's comparing apples to elephants, though. I can get a Tramadol for intense pain from my doctor after he examines me and determines there is, in fact, an issue. That same doctor, however, will not prescribe me medical marijuana because my knee is balky in a state where such is not legal. Doctors act within the bounds of the law, and prescribing medications for a diagnosed mental illness is a whole different thing than stating that a doctor would go around the law to prescribe illegal PEDs or sign off on such.

[gunnarthor]

 

This thread reminded me of a conversation I had with a co-worker. He was a big wrestling fan and brought his niece to a WWE event last year. The conversation meandered as they always do and eventually a few of us mentioned that The Rock had obviously juiced. My co-worker would not believe it.

 

In any event, hopefully there are more of these reports coming to shine a light on the amount of PED use is professional (and high school and college) sports.

[biggentleben]

I don't have any doubt that there are synthetic (and even still some anabolic) testosterone steroidal PEDs in use in athletics. I do not believe that it is rampant, and the experience of friends of mine who have competed in the NFL and in professional wrestling have given me some very good insight into the true effects of what PEDs do. Multiple friends and former teammates have made the choice to use PEDs to enhance their professional athletic careers, so I've gotten their perspective as well.

 

That's why I always shake my head at the scare tactics of the HOF voters who panic about steroid users. Players got bigger, faster, and stronger as baseball FINALLY accepted the idea that lifting a weight wouldn't make you a worse ballplayer. Yes, steroids were involved with some, but the effects of the steroids at the time would have also had negative affects in their ability to play the game of baseball. What we did see different was the extension of players' effectiveness in their careers. I have no doubt that was due to the utilization of PEDs.

 

The first full-time strength coach in professional football was hired before the AFL/NFL merger. The first such strength coach in professional basketball was hired before the NBA/ABA merger. Hockey had full-time strength coaches on multiple teams by the time Ronald Reagan left office. However, the Oakland Athletics were the first team in the major leagues to hire a full-time strength coach in 1990, having been the lone even half-time strength coach in the entire league previous to 1990. By the time the 1995 season ended, every single team in the major leagues had a full-time strength and conditioning coach. Much like the world of sabermetrics, some teams were drastically ahead of others in implementing the utilization of advanced training methods for players. I quite literally was speaking with a scout this last summer who talked with me about how revolutionary the squat has been to the last 5 years of high school scouting in baseball. A parallel squat has been a highly utilized training lift in football since Dick Butkus was playing.40-50 years ago. I was utilizing explosive power lifts to train for 9-man football in rural South Dakota in the mid-1990s, so the information was out there, but baseball was a very late adapter.

 

Part of this is what I believe will be the final solution to the epidemic of Tommy John and oblique injuries that plague the game currently. Proper explosive training that utilizes the hips and legs can train a body to generate the kind of torque to generate high-level power while also keeping the body healthy and properly strained rather than overstraining as so many pitchers and hitters do now to hit the ball farther and throw the ball harder.

 

Are there PEDs in the game still? Absolutely, and I won't ever claim that they've been absolutely eliminated, but synthetics are only a minor step ahead of the testing systems in the games, and I do believe that those who want to think there are a majority of players who utilize something illegal to enhance their athletic performance are easily influenced by the often minimally-researched media reports on these substances rather than taking the time to actually researching them to find out their true effects on the human body.

[gunnarthor]

Well, Ben, I guess we can both agree that the more knowledge about illegal PED use is a good thing.

 

I disagree with pretty much everything else you suggest and it was a pretty common argument a decade ago when TrueNiners was defending Bonds.  If you don't think PED use is common in the NFL, fine, you'll never think it's an issue in baseball.  Enjoy the game as you see fit. At the end of the day, it's just entertainment. 

[biggentleben]

 

Well, Ben, I guess we can both agree that the more knowledge about illegal PED use is a good thing.

 

I disagree with pretty much everything else you suggest and it was a pretty common argument a decade ago when TrueNiners was defending Bonds.  If you don't think PED use is common in the NFL, fine, you'll never think it's an issue in baseball.  Enjoy the game as you see fit. At the end of the day, it's just entertainment. 

 

No, it's not "common", but that also depends on what your definition of common as well. I'd say 75% of the league NOT using would constitute usage as not being a common occurrence, and no one I've known that's played in the league has ever estimated anything near 25%. I've heard comments like "a handful of guys in every locker room" on the HIGH end from those guys. That's 5 guys in every locker room, or 5 guys out of 50-60 guys that are part of a team when you add in practice squad players. So out of a league of 30 teams, that's 150 players out of the 1500-2000 players that suit up every season. I guess I don't consider that "common".

 

I'll absolutely consider it an issue in baseball because I truly think baseball CBA issues do not allow for the level of testing that the NFL is able to employ upon its athletes, so more could be gotten away with. However, if you want to tell me that Mike Trout is juicing as you watch his workouts, I will gladly laugh in your face. He may work harder than any athlete in professional sports, and I'm including J.J. Watt. The man has trained himself incredibly well due to some of the best training in the world that certainly wasn't available to him when he was in high school. I'm sure if he walked away from the game right now, he'd lose 30 pounds of muscle in a year pretty quick. Those particular pieces of fact prove nothing about his usage or innocence of usage, just like the same about other athletes before him also was true. There's more than PEDs affecting better athletes in baseball, and not seeing that is as much or more blind than the guy who'd say there's no PED usage at all in the game.

[gunnarthor]

Again, we just see things differently.  I think most people accept that juicing in the NFL is extremely common to the point that when the starting NFL LT, C and punter for the super bowl team "filled repeated prescriptions for a banner steroid less than two weeks before they played in the Super Bowl" people don't even care because they know the other teams guys were doing it too.  Hell, people don't even remember.

 

Compare that to the outrage we get when Milky Cabrera helped the Giants make the postseason.

 

You're just rehashing the same arguments others have - ARod trained harder than anyone ever.  He juiced. If you don't think PED use is common, fine.  Nothing I say will sway you - but the former MLB investigator estimates "conservatively" that about 20% of the players are on some sort of illegal PED.  That sounds about right to me. 

[TheLeviathan]

 

Again, we just see things differently.  I think most people accept that juicing in the NFL is extremely common to the point that when the starting NFL LT, C and punter for the super bowl team "filled repeated prescriptions for a banner steroid less than two weeks before they played in the Super Bowl" people don't even care because they know the other teams guys were doing it too.  Hell, people don't even remember.

 

You're conflating issues - you can't take public perception and turn that into a statistic of how much it's actually happening.  Those aren't the same thing.

[Squirrel]

You're conflating issues - you can't take public perception and turn that into a statistic of how much it's actually happening.  Those aren't the same thing.

Moderator warning: This, exactly this. Thanks, Levi. And I'll add to that by repeating my warning of a few pages ago ... Let's be careful throwing around accusations and suspicions without knowledge or proof. This thread isn't about finger pointing and witch hunting.

 

I'll also add that this is a baseball thread. Keep this pertinent to what is/was happening or not happening in baseball. If you want to broaden the discussion to include all sports and athletes at all levels, that's fine, but then the discussion will be moved to the Sports Bar.

[gunnarthor]

Things get more interesting as Zimmerman has filed a defamation lawsuit against Al Jazeera. 

 

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2016/01/ryan-zimmerman-sues-al-jazeera.html

 

 

[gunnarthor]

SI has a nice run down on the quick problems with a defamation lawsuit and what might happen. 

 

http://www.si.com/mlb/2016/01/06/ryan-zimmerman-ryan-howard-lawsuit-al-jazeera-peds-dark-side