Democratic Debate

[DaveW]

I'm pretty damn liberal but good lord, Bernie sanders is so insanely unelectable he shouldn't even be on the stage. Some good ideas, but he doesn't stand a chance and his inability to comprise on anything makes him a bit of a blowhard.

[TheLeviathan]

Yeah, I like some things Sanders believes and could even see voting for him if I never had to listen to him talk or see him.

 

But seeing him and hearing him talk.....it's almost as hard as Trump.

[DaveW]

Yeah, I like some things Sanders believes and could even see voting for him if I never had to listen to him talk or see him.

 

But seeing him and hearing him talk.....it's almost as hard as Trump.

I mean trump is his own sort of beast, but yeah, I get the sentiment, it's sorta like "this guy is kind of a dick"

 

I'm not a Hilary fan boy, but I will be damned, this debate made her look pretty good IMO, I am a little hesitate electing someone that old due to potential health/Alzheimer's/dementia in the 2nd term, but she is the best of the bunch IMO.(no current republicans in the top 5 seem worthy to have a shot IMO)

[flpmagikat]

I think he looked better as it went on, but yeah I don't agree with your take completely, however it did seem like he treated it more like a campaign rally rather than a debate. And yeah hillary will usually look good because she's a good politician, but lines like telling wall st street to cut it out are just so eye roll worthy idk. Still beats the hell out of whats on the other stage. Surprised webb didn't pull one out and fire a few rounds in the air and demand his ten minutes.

[flpmagikat]

 

 

Yeah, I like some things Sanders believes and could even see voting for him if I never had to listen to him talk or see him.

 

But seeing him and hearing him talk.....it's almost as hard as Trump.

Nah no one on that stage, even with the awkward or cringey moments like the block of granite explaining some of his votes, comes close to how dangerous the kind of rhetoric that comes from trump and probably 3/4 of the republican candidates is. Obvious bias, but I think o malley made a solid point of that in his closing remarks. 

[DaveW]

 

I think he looked better as it went on, but yeah I don't agree with your take completely, however it did seem like he treated it more like a campaign rally rather than a debate. And yeah hillary will usually look good because she's a good politician, but lines like telling wall st street to cut it out are just so eye roll worthy idk. Still beats the hell out of whats on the other stage. Surprised webb didn't pull one out and fire a few rounds in the air and demand his ten minutes.

Yeah, I sorta think Bernie knows he really doesn't have a chance but is using the opportunity to further a few agendas/issues etc, I give him credit for actually being civil with everyone and defending Hillary. 

I still think he has some really good ideas, I just don't see how an independent would go with him over a moderate republican (not sure if there are any in the top 5 currently FWIW) but some of his stuff leans a little too far left for me to be honest (christ, now I feel old, lame and a "sellout")

[PseudoSABR]

 

But seeing him and hearing him talk.....it's almost as hard as Trump.

What ideas of Bernie's seem so incredibly intransigent?  (This question is for Dave too).  

 

I do agree Bernie was stumping more than engaging the questions, but I didn't find anything he said akin to Trump's rhetoric or ideas.

 

Clinton did come off utterly competent.   I especially like when she said, "I'm progressive, but I'm a progressive who likes to get things done."

[flpmagikat]

 

Yeah, I sorta think Bernie knows he really doesn't have a chance but is using the opportunity to further a few agendas/issues etc, I give him credit for actually being civil with everyone and defending Hillary. 

I still think he has some really good ideas, I just don't see how an independent would go with him over a moderate republican (not sure if there are any in the top 5 currently FWIW) but some of his stuff leans a little too far left for me to be honest (christ, now I feel old, lame and a "sellout")

See idk, i can't actually see him winning but there are a lot of moderates of all sorts i know and even on this board that would vote for him, and a lot of folks who will only vote for someone with an r next to their name, but are completely put off by basically everyone on that(republican) stage. They all were very civil which is good to see. Also i think his weakest points tonight to me were 1) talking about Scandinavian countries as models right off the bat. some truth/logic to it but we're not a smallish fairly homogenous european country. 2) that awkward answer relating to syria, which i think was a sorta followup to a jim webb answer. not gonna lie i don't remember the specifics, just that it really seemed like he wasn't prepared to speak about foreign policy except broad generalizations, just kind of wants to be an isolationist(which i also don't completely disagree with 3 )this one is kinda like that job interview, "whats your biggest weakness?" question. he started at about an 11 shouting and like i said seemed to treat it as a campaign rally. he toned it down or at least reigned it in as the night went on, and so he like bottomed out at 9.5 energy. so off-putting maybe at first, but energy is good.

 

the gun stuff i think helps him, though i think omalley made a good point that no one up there is or has been trying to pass legislation to make all guns illegal(even though i know that is the goal of some on the far left, which is where sanders falls i suppose, and thats not his end game regarding guns) just somethings gotta change. also i don't think this country as a whole will ever either understand or accept what socialism is and how it shapes our politics. we struggle with much simpler ideas than that. myself included.

[flpmagikat]

Also I don't watch much tv anymore, mostly just some sports, but this post coverage. They just keep talking about bernie saying "we are sick of hearing about your emails". True I guess, but i don't know that its such a minor issue.  We don't know what all happened with that, but its not nothing. Especially considering how strong of a stance she seems to take on edward snowden. I guess it was a nice moment in that the 5 on stage weren't tearing each other apart, but i think we should care about that, cause it sure seems pretty shady. And i mean, she's not just a politician, she's a clinton. Shady is their middle name.

[PseudoSABR]

I think the Clinton email thing demonstrates irresponsibility, but nothing more; I think it's a sign of Hillary being behind the times in terms of security risks of a private email account, and myopic about how using a private account to do the State's business would look.  She blew it, but there hasn't even been alleged harm.

 

I guess I just like Bernie decrying the absurdity of an economic system that creates more upward mobility for millionaires to move into the billionaire class than it does for lower and middle class to even tread water.

[flpmagikat]

 

I think the Clinton email thing demonstrates irresponsibility, but nothing more; I think it's a sign of Hillary being behind the times in terms of security risks of a private email account, and myopic about how using a private account to do the State's business would look.  She blew it, but there hasn't even been alleged harm.

 

I guess I just like Bernie decrying the absurdity of an economic system that creates more upward mobility for millionaires to move into the billionaire class than it does for lower and middle class to even tread water.

Hmm, maybe. Its tough for me to believe someone as smart as her would do something like that out of incompetence. Agree about sanders.

[PseudoSABR]

 

Hmm, maybe. Its tough for me to believe someone as smart as her would do something like that out of incompetence. 

You're right to be cynical.  I'd say it was more arrogance than incompetence. (Two sides of the same coin?)   In any case, I just don't see the upside of the private server for Clinton without evidence of any actual wrong doing through that server.  If Clinton were doing side-deals and wanted to insulate herself, there'd be evidence of that through which ever relays the emails needed to pass through to reach their destination.   

 

I do imagine, however, there is some diplomacy that needs to happen through unofficial channels.  However, a private email account probably isn't the best way to conduct that given the footprint electronic correspondence leaves, and the signal that having a private server sends.  (All this said, I'm speculating, and am neither super tech-savvy or diplomacy-savvy). 

[TheLeviathan]

I think I wasn't clear about my comparison to Trump, it wasn't in the buffoonery of ideas that I was drawing a comparison, more that when I listen to him it's clear he's just not president material.  That his entire campaign seems more about himself than it does about actually being a leader.  

 

Maybe another way to say it is that I can just as easily see Sanders as a viable President as I can Trump, not because of ideas but because of personality.

[TheLeviathan]

 

What ideas of Bernie's seem so incredibly intransigent?  (This question is for Dave too).  

 

I do agree Bernie was stumping more than engaging the questions, but I didn't find anything he said akin to Trump's rhetoric or ideas.

 

Clinton did come off utterly competent.   I especially like when she said, "I'm progressive, but I'm a progressive who likes to get things done."

 

It's not that his ideas are intransigent, like I said, I actually like some of his ideas.  But so much of his platform is based on sounding specific and good, but the deeper you dig the worse the idea is.  Just a few that I don't like:

 

1) Free College - No.  Not until you fix the way the colleges are already abusing the system.  Then we can talk.

 

2)  Federal Minimum Wage at $15 - That's stupid.  I'm ok with raising the floor, but that's just too high for many parts of the country.  You'll have people at Subway making more than teachers and nurses.  

 

3)  Comparing everything to Germany and Norway - It appears any nuance to those comparisons is totally lost on him.

 

That said, you put him against basically any of the Republicans and I at least consider voting for him.

[DaveW]

 

What ideas of Bernie's seem so incredibly intransigent?  (This question is for Dave too).  

 

I will piggyback on what Lev and others have said, he may in fact not be an intransigent person (nice word choice) but his tone especially if the first half didn't help anything. People don't like being yelled at which he seemed to be doing a lot of (which is where the comparisons to trump comes into play)

 

Also I really think the fact he continues to call himself a socialist dooms any real chance of him winning the nomination/election and getting the middle to vote for him. Of course socialism is just a word, and has worked in other countries, however in the US it still has a very negative connotation for a lot of folks (right or wrong). Plus him saying he isn't a capitalist hurts his chances as well, plus it seems he wants to increase taxes which I am very much against. (Unless its only for people making 1+ million a year)

[Willihammer]

I think Clinton looks the most presidential and most reasonable but good god we have to find a better way to vet candidates than these CNN debates. They are a joke.

[Squirrel]

 

I think I wasn't clear about my comparison to Trump, it wasn't in the buffoonery of ideas that I was drawing a comparison, more that when I listen to him it's clear he's just not president material.  That his entire campaign seems more about himself than it does about actually being a leader.  

 

Maybe another way to say it is that I can just as easily see Sanders as a viable President as I can Trump, not because of ideas but because of personality.

I don't think his campaign is about himself. I don't think it's ego-driven, if that's what you meant about being about himself. I think it's overly idealistic, though. I think he's genuine in what he thinks and says, whether I agree with him or not. (I do on a lot of issues, though). He is well-loved by those he represents. But is he a leader, in, is he presidential? I have my doubts. He says a lot of things that resonate with a lot of people ... so did Obama in 2008. In Bernie's case, as I said, I think he's overly idealistic; in Obama's case, he was naive and really unprepared for what he was hit with, but I think he eventually grew into the job (in 2014). I think Bernie will hit just as many roadblocks for very different reasons.

[ashbury]

 but I think o malley made a solid point of that in his closing remarks. 

I didn't stay up to hear the closing statements, but I had thought O'Malley already acquitted himself well during the evening. A solid third alternative^* if you don't happen to like either of the front-runners. Webb and Chafee look like they'll remain one-percenters, and not the rich kind.

 

_{^{* At least pending Biden's coming decision whether to enter the race.}}

[TheLeviathan]

 

I don't think his campaign is about himself. I don't think it's ego-driven, if that's what you meant about being about himself. I think it's overly idealistic, though.

 

I guess what I mean is that I feel like he really just wants to tell people what he thinks.  That's his objective it feels like.  And in the first half you saw some of that - everyone else is talking issues and when it pans to Bernie I feel like I'm getting lectured by my dad.  The same way every time Trump talks I feel like I'm getting a lecture from a half-wit uncle.  

[ashbury]

and when it pans to Bernie I feel like I'm getting lectured by my dad. 

At least I now know why every picture in existence of Bernie Sanders has him pointing a damn index finger at something. It's because he's pointing a damn index finger all the damn time!

[flpmagikat]

 

I didn't stay up to hear the closing statements, but I had thought O'Malley already acquitted himself well during the evening. A solid third alternative^* if you don't happen to like either of the front-runners. Webb and Chafee look like they'll remain one-percenters, and not the rich kind.

 

_{^{* At least pending Biden's coming decision whether to enter the race.}}

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdvD-4XI2w4

 

"I am very very grateful to be on this stage with this distinguished group of candidates tonight. And what you heard tonight ... was a very very different debate from the sort of debate that you heard from the two presidential republican debates. On this stage you didn't hear anyone denigrate women, you didn't hear anyone make racist comments about new American immigrants. You didn't hear anyone speak ill of another American because of their religious beliefs. What you heard was an honest search for the answers that will move our country forward, to move us to a 100 percent clean electric energy grid by 2050.
To take the actions that we have always taken as Americans, so that we can actually attack injustice in our country, employ more of our people, rebuild out cities and towns, educate our children at higher and better levels, and include more of our people in the sociopolitical and economic life of our country. I truly believe that we are standing on the threshold of a new american progress, unless you become discouraged about our gridlock in Congress, talk to our people under 30. You'll never find among them people who want to bash immigrants, people who want to deny rights to gay couples. That tells me we are moving to a more connected, generous, compassionate place, and we need to speak to the goodness within our country."

[Brock Beauchamp]

I'm about halfway through the debate.

 

While I don't agree with much of what has been said during the debate, I'm relieved to see adults saying adult things.

 

The GOP debates set the bar absurdly low.

[TheLeviathan]

 

At least I now know why every picture in existence of Bernie Sanders has him pointing a damn index finger at something. It's because he's pointing a damn index finger all the damn time!

 

In my head I imagined him negotiating with Putin like that.

[Craig Arko]

 

In my head I imagined him negotiating with Putin like that.

Which one will bang their shoe on the table first?

 

Actually, I like Bernie. I don't see him as very electable but I still like him. But then, I'm a bit of a socialist, too. I think the term gets a bad rap.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Which one will bang their shoe on the table first?

 

Actually, I like Bernie. I don't see him as very electable but I still like him. But then, I'm a bit of a socialist, too. I think the term gets a bad rap.

 I imagine more shoe flying than banging in that situation.

 

I like Bernie's principled approach to being a legislator and I appreciate his passion.  But I'd rather have him advising a President than being one.

[Squirrel]

 

 

Actually, I like Bernie. I don't see him as very electable but I still like him. But then, I'm a bit of a socialist, too. I think the term gets a bad rap.

Ditto.

[Squirrel]

 

 

 I imagine more shoe flying than banging in that situation.

 

I like Bernie's principled approach to being a legislator and I appreciate his passion.  But I'd rather have him advising a President than being one.

I think this is spot on. As I've said many times before, he reminds me a bit of Paul Wellstone in his approach ... I think he says what he says out of sincerity and true belief/passion.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I think this is spot on. As I've said many times before, he reminds me a bit of Paul Wellstone in his approach ... I think he says what he says out of sincerity and true belief/passion.

Yeah. It's what we all think we want in a president but in reality, I'm not sure a president with that mindset can succeed.

 

The debate cemented my support for Sanders, mostly because I'm tired of choosing between the douche and turd sandwich every four years... But I'm not sure he'd be a good president.

 

It also doesn't help that he's considerably farther left than myself.

 

I struggle to understand how anyone could watch that debate full of rational adults saying rational things and still vote Republican in 13 months. I don't even agree with much of the Democratic platform but I've been reduced to voting for the party that doesn't terrify me and make me want to move to Canada or Europe (not hyperbole, I've considered it several times).

 

Then again, I think the GOP has a snowball's chance in hell of winning the presidency until they remove their collective heads from their asses. The GOP was once the party of pragmatism, which helped normal citizens overlook some of their regressive social policy... But today's GOP has become a two-headed beast of reckless ideology and regressive social policy. That's an unwinnable combination in the short term. American citizens still remember what happened under Bush and he was a moderate compared to many of the clownshoes standing on that GOP stage.

 

In short, the GOP is a regional party and will continue to be one until they forcibly remove the radical elements that have slowly crept into power over the past three decades.

 

And that leaves me as a very reluctant Democrat.

 

Yay, America?

[Badsmerf]

I share your sentiments brock. I might actually visit Germany for the first time layer this year, depends on a new job.

 

While I dislike some elements of Sanders and Clinton, holy **** this debate was more tolerable than any gop. Also, what the hell are Webb and Chaffee doing running for office? Webb completely embarrassed himself and Chaffee is as hallow as the "I love yous" I said in college. There has to be more eloquent Democrats right? Right?

 

It's amazing to me the stark contrast in parties. The gop is full of contentious radicals while the Democrats are wishy washy and untrustworthy. I really wish Sanders would have roasted Clinton on foreign policy and economic reform more effectively. Clinton is almost the standard of the problem in politics.

[Mike Sixel]

I only saw a few minutes.....I just don't like Clinton's "act". That said, it isn't her job for me to like her. She is clearly qualified, and I think pragmatic is probably a good word. I don't see anyone on the other side with an ounce of tolerance for gays, immigrants, and non-Christians. So, I have no interest in them, none.