Rule 5 pick

[twinssouth]

It seems nearly every year the Twins hang around after winter meetings to pick a Rule 5 to stash on the 25 man Roster for the whole blasted year. See Pressley (who I actually think has a bright future) and Graham who grooves the FB to ARod for the Grand Slammer. I've said it before but this really burns my craw that they do this. To me, it shows no faith in your MILB pitchers, a slap in the face to all those who hang in there, toil, hoping for the chance to be in the Show. It's totally BS. You can't tell me there isn't anyone as good as Graham in the Minors.

 

 

 

I therefore, have a new program. It's called the RULE 6 PLAN

 

 

That's right, you pick the best MILB Relief pitcher in the Twins system, regardless of where he is and you stash the one pitcher on the 25 MLB Roster for the whole year. You use him just like they use Graham or Pressley in the past; low leverage situations (blow out losses or mop up in blow out wins) He gets MLB coaching, learns from the pros. To me, this is how you create a great Minor League system. Reward your own first before grabbing someone off the scrap heap.

 

 

 

Think about it; Would Achter or Tonkin or anybody serve up the Grand Slam to ARod just as easy as Graham would. If so, then it's a push, if not, then the Twins would have won.

 

 

 

 

So, based on all this, my FIRST RULE 6 pick for 2016 is JT Chargois. He gets the coveted 25 man Rule 6 spot.

 

 

 

Who's yours?

[sane]

Your Rule 6 guy should be a Minor League reliever that NEEDS to be protected to prevent loss in the Rule 5 draft.  Otherwise the Twins would lose a guy every year and gain no one. (ie. no possible Pressley, Johan Santana, Josh Hamilton, Roberto Clemente, George Bell)

Since JT Chargois was signed out of college in 2012, he is eligible to be lost in the Rule V draft, so he is a good choice. Other good choices (unless they are added to the 40-man-roster) would be Mason Melotakis, Taylor Rogers, Zack Jones, Luke Bard and Alex Muren.

[Otto von Ballpark]

I'll say this, given the Twins 40-man roster recently, there should be no need to try to "sneak" anyone through Rule 5 like Gilmartin.  If a guy is a realistic Rule 5 pick like that, just add him to the roster, use him like you used Thompson, Darnell, etc., and get the benefit and flexibility of being able to option him as needed.

 

Of course, you can still make your own Rule 5 pick from another org, which I have no issue with.  Graham is not the problem with this year's bullpen.  Pressly was not a problem in 2013 either.

[twinssouth]

Your Rule 6 guy should be a Minor League reliever that NEEDS to be protected to prevent loss in the Rule 5 draft.  Otherwise the Twins would lose a guy every year and gain no one. (ie. no possible Pressley, Johan Santana, Josh Hamilton, Roberto Clemente, George Bell)

Since JT Chargois was signed out of college in 2012, he is eligible to be lost in the Rule V draft, so he is a good choice. Other good choices (unless they are added to the 40-man-roster) would be Mason Melotakis, Taylor Rogers, Zack Jones, Luke Bard and Alex Muren.

 

 

 

Great point, Rule 6 based on Rule 5 qualifier. Thanks

[twinssouth]

I'll say this, given the Twins 40-man roster recently, there should be no need to try to "sneak" anyone through Rule 5 like Gilmartin.  If a guy is a realistic Rule 5 pick like that, just add him to the roster, use him like you used Thompson, Darnell, etc., and get the benefit and flexibility of being able to option him as needed.

 

Of course, you can still make your own Rule 5 pick from another org, which I have no issue with.  Graham is not the problem with this year's bullpen.  Pressly was not a problem in 2013 either.

 

 

 

Great point, but this thread is not about managing the bullpen, it's instead picking someone else's Rule 5 rather than promote from within. Thanks and you're right about Pressley

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Great point, but this thread is not about managing the bullpen, it's instead picking someone else's Rule 5 rather than promote from within. Thanks and you're right about Pressley

Well, the thread started with the premise that there was a problem with Graham being on the roster.  There isn't.  There was actually plenty of room to use him and a "Rule 6" selection (or even multiple rotating "Rule 6" selections, although I wouldn't be in a huge rush to rotate them).

[Seth Stohs]

I liked the JR Graham pick then, and I still like it now. Like Pressly, he can head down to Rochester to start next season. I hesitate to say "he'll be fine" based on another thread, but taking guys who throw 95 in the Rule 5 draft should be a must.

[jimbo92107]

Cross fertilization. Rule 5 is good for teams and good for players that are stuck in the minors for one reason or another. JR Graham was stuck in Atlanta after TJ surgery; the Twins claimed him as a possible reclamation project, and it has worked pretty well so far. I get the feeling Graham wants to transition to a starter, but he could do worse than stay in a middle inning role.

 

The problem with "Rule 6" is that if you take a guy from say, A ball and stash him on the 25, you start burning up service time right away. Maybe twinnsouth meant to pick only from guys that are otherwise Rule 5 eligible? Also, would you make this a league-wide official rule, or are you talking about an unofficial team policy just for the Twins?

[twinssouth]

Well, the thread started with the premise that there was a problem with Graham being on the roster.  There isn't.  There was actually plenty of room to use him and a "Rule 6" selection (or even multiple rotating "Rule 6" selections, although I wouldn't be in a huge rush to rotate them).

 

 

Fair enough, I was picking on Graham but using him as an example on why even bother with Rule 5. Let's just promote from within and call it our Rule 6

[twinssouth]

I liked the JR Graham pick then, and I still like it now. Like Pressly, he can head down to Rochester to start next season. I hesitate to say "he'll be fine" based on another thread, but taking guys who throw 95 in the Rule 5 draft should be a must.

 

 

I was hoping you would chime in Seth but let me ask you this; Tonkin was throwing 95 also last year, if he was stashed on the 25 do you think he would have similar results as Graham? Bear in mind, Graham has been on the team since April, pitching multiple times in low leverage situations over 4 months. He's had plenty of time to get his feet wet. Had the exact scenario happened to Tonkin, do you think he would have coughed up the Grand Slam to ARod and if so, is that not a push. That's the basis of my discussion. Thanks Seth, you do an awesome job at Twins Daily

[twinssouth]

Cross fertilization. Rule 5 is good for teams and good for players that are stuck in the minors for one reason or another. JR Graham was stuck in Atlanta after TJ surgery; the Twins claimed him as a possible reclamation project, and it has worked pretty well so far. I get the feeling Graham wants to transition to a starter, but he could do worse than stay in a middle inning role.

 

The problem with "Rule 6" is that if you take a guy from say, A ball and stash him on the 25, you start burning up service time right away. Maybe twinnsouth meant to pick only from guys that are otherwise Rule 5 eligible? Also, would you make this a league-wide official rule, or are you talking about an unofficial team policy just for the Twins?

 

 

This to me is best served as an unofficial Twins team policy. I get the reclamation project and if so, wouldn't you try to make a trade deal with Atlanta, then send him down to work on his craft.

[sane]

 

"Had the exact scenario happened to Tonkin, do you think he would have coughed up the Grand Slam to ARod"(?)

Even GREAT pitchers throw some bad pitches, and even GREAT pitches sometimes get blasted by good hitters. It's baseball, where bad teams beat good teams about 50% of the time.

[nicksaviking]

I like seeing young hard(er) throwing Rule V guys more than the AAAA soft tossing camp invite guys who make the team based on not being terrible for 9 spring training innings like Josh Roenike and Blaine Boyer.  The Twins somehow seem to find these kinds of pitcher just as difficult to remove from the 25-man.

[SwainZag]

Corr

 

I was hoping you would chime in Seth but let me ask you this; Tonkin was throwing 95 also last year, if he was stashed on the 25 do you think he would have similar results as Graham? Bear in mind, Graham has been on the team since April, pitching multiple times in low leverage situations over 4 months. He's had plenty of time to get his feet wet. Had the exact scenario happened to Tonkin, do you think he would have coughed up the Grand Slam to ARod and if so, is that not a push. That's the basis of my discussion. Thanks Seth, you do an awesome job at Twins Daily

 

Keep in mind that Graham has always been a starter in the minors up until this year where he is in the Twins bullpen.  I always assumed that they would hide him in the bullpen this year and convert him back to a starter next season, but who knows at this point.

[Seth Stohs]

 

I was hoping you would chime in Seth but let me ask you this; Tonkin was throwing 95 also last year, if he was stashed on the 25 do you think he would have similar results as Graham? Bear in mind, Graham has been on the team since April, pitching multiple times in low leverage situations over 4 months. He's had plenty of time to get his feet wet. Had the exact scenario happened to Tonkin, do you think he would have coughed up the Grand Slam to ARod and if so, is that not a push. That's the basis of my discussion. Thanks Seth, you do an awesome job at Twins Daily

 

I'm not going to worry about the smallest of sample sizes, though Tonkin's problem in the big leagues has been giving up home runs. He dominates AAA this year and it hasn't translated to the big leagues at all in these three years worth of options. That said, he's never been given the confidence of an extended run. I'd like to see that too. Tonkin deserves a lot. So does Achter. 

 

If the Twins weren't contending this year, it would absolutely, 100% make sense to use the Rule 5 pick and try to hide him. Since they're in contention, it's harder to justify, but it's still a great way to acquire talent.

 

They could talk to the Braves about working out a deal, but even then he'd have to get through waivers to be tradable. I don't think he'd clear. Too much talent to sneak past some of those out-of-contention teams.

[lukeduke1980]

 

This to me is best served as an unofficial Twins team policy. I get the reclamation project and if so, wouldn't you try to make a trade deal with Atlanta, then send him down to work on his craft.

Agreed - if you think someone is worth enough to take up a roster spot for a season they must be worth working out a trade for, to be able to send them down in the chance you'd like to maximize your roster spots.  

 

But remember the days when we would have a Rule 5 guy and a 3rd catcher?!

[dxpavelka]

If you're gonna keep 13 pitchers on the roster, which most teams seem want to do these days, I have no problem with a Rule 5 guy being one of them.  Seems to me we've burned thru about  a half dozen (or more) Rule 6 guys already this year.

[DuluthFan]

The Twins ALREADY HAVE something similar to the 'Rule 6', it's called the 40 man roster. They can stash players on it and they don't even have to put them on the major league roster. There are several players on it right now that are taking advantage of the protection that it provides from being selected by another team.

 

The point of the Rule 5 draft is to allow players stuck in the minors in a deep system a chance to play for someone else. Ideally you would draft major league ready players in the major league portion of the draft.

 

Is / was there another player in the Twins organization that could have provided similar numbers to that of Graham? Probably. But the thing is, he is still in the organization, hopefully still improving, and he is not taking up a place on the 40 man roster while he is learning his position. He cannot be lost to another organization DURING the season unless the Twins release him. During the offseason the Twins had already made their choices on whom to protect and whom to leave exposed. If they lose anyone, it is with the knowledge that they knew it could be a possibility.

[jimbo92107]

 

This to me is best served as an unofficial Twins team policy. I get the reclamation project and if so, wouldn't you try to make a trade deal with Atlanta, then send him down to work on his craft.

I agree, Graham belongs in AAA working as a starter, not in the Twins bullpen working as a so-so reliever. Make the deal with Atlanta. Graham is a live arm with potential, but possibly two years from being a competent starter.

[Otto von Ballpark]

If Graham is any good, Atlanta has zero incentive to work out a deal.  To get Diamond, who was less a buy low injury guy and more of a stalled out low-upside AAA guy, the Twins had to give up a relief prospect not unlike Nick Burdi.

 

You want to give up Nick Burdi just so you can put Graham in AAA, and use Darnell/Hamburger/whomever in his place?  When you already have multiple weak links in the bullpen anyway?

[zchrz]

I like them picking up promising young guys to stash in the pen via rule 5.  Graham hasn't been the problem with the bullpen, building it with a core of Boyer, Fien, Duensing has. 

[sane]

 

But remember the days when we would have a Rule 5 guy and a 3rd catcher?!

 

Those were the days when starting pitchers pitched 200-300 innings, 8-9 innings per game.

Now starters throw 100 pitches and relievers pitch one inning (or one batter).

That is why ten-man pitching staffs and seven-man benches are long gone.

[sane]

Last season, only Hughes pitched over 200 innings.

 

One season, a LONG time ago, Pascual, Ramos, Kaat and Kralick all pitched over 200 innings for the Twins.

[twinssouth]

All good points.

 

What got me thinking about this was last year we were at a Red Wings game in Gwinnet. Pressley comes in. My Son in law watched him and said he's a good pitcher. I said he's a rule 5 pick up from Boston, spent all last year with the Twins. He said no wonder, you can tell he's pitched in the majors, more polished.

 

After the Graham melt down, this came back to the cranium. What would a Twins MILer look like if given the opportunity. Now, I will admit, if you don't have quality pitchers in the system, probably forced to go this route.

 

This coming year, we will have some tough choices to make as to who's on the 40 man. Wouldn't it be the cat's arse if Graham was cut in favor of one of our own?

 

 

Bottom line........ Rule 5 guys get a loooooooooooong leash

[jorgenswest]

One year they kept a rule 5 guy around all year in spite of a 6.49 ERA and 1.814 WHIP.

[Physics Guy]

One year they kept a rule 5 guy around all year in spite of a 6.49 ERA and 1.814 WHIP.

I'd take that guy again. What would the board look like if he was on our roster this year?

[Otto von Ballpark]

One year they kept a rule 5 guy around all year in spite of a 6.49 ERA and 1.814 WHIP.

In the offensive environment of 2000, that was actually good for a 80 ERA+, virtually identical to Graham's so far this year. And Santana was 4 years younger than Graham is now.