2016 Election Thread

[TheLeviathan]

 

I think it's an important campaign to run, even if he has little to no shot of winning the nomination.

 

The Democratic Party needs a real leftist candidate to remind the party they have a base and it's not happy with how things have turned out over the past decade. Bernie Sanders is reminding the party they've drifted to the center on almost all the issues and many people aren't happy about it.

 

And Sanders, unlike you-know-who, is running an issues-focused campaign without bluster. He's making a point and it's a valid one.

 

Boy I take issue with a bunch of this.  First - is it really the base or is it a fringe he's appealing to?  The same kind of fringe Trump is appealing to that the Republican party has become to centered and not extreme enough?   That's not the base.  He, like Trump, is appealing heavily with first-timers and people typically outside the political process.  

 

You could argue he's tapping into a segment of the democratic base that has gone untapped for awhile, but it sure as hell ain't the base.

 

And second - issues based?  I really don't see that with Sanders.  He's a couple trick pony, he's just picked some really smart ponies.  Again, much like Trump.  He and Trump are harping on one issue evenly (free trade agreements) and he's harping on wall-street vs. middle America and college debt.  That's really about it.  They're smart issues to stump on and they have clearly driven the conversation towards those issues.  But they're out there, what further is his campaign accomplishing?

[TheLeviathan]

 

Yes, it's okay.  It's not a moral issue, and painting it as such, seems, well irresponsible. 

 

Plenty of people give their money to so-called 'lost causes'.  It's their decision to make.  Bernie's message has value, even if his candidacy doesn't.   To use an old and brash analogy: Even if this battle is lost, some are fighting to win a war. 

 

Except you're sort of making it a moral issue - the morality of continuing to stand up and stump on these issues.  So I think it's fair to point out the costs of that crusade and the costs are real people's money.

 

And I think the war was already won in a sense - his views and his voice have gotten far more platform than anyone could have expected.  From here on you're just sinking more into a war you've won as much as you can win.  Can people put their money wherever they want?  Sure, but I'm not sure that justifies someone spending it.  

[DaveW]

 

 He, like Trump, is appealing heavily with first-timers and people typically outside the political process.  

 

Exactly.

This is why Bloomberg was thinking of running if Sanders and Trump were going to win the nomination. At that point it essentially would have been: Independent v Independent v Independent

[PseudoSABR]

 

And I think the war was already won in a sense - his views and his voice have gotten far more platform than anyone could have expected.  

I think you're really minimizing what people hope to achieve.   As soon as the public/media acknowledge you have a voice, you don't just stop talking....

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Yes, it's okay.  It's not a moral issue, and painting it as such, seems, well irresponsible. 

 

Plenty of people give their money to so-called 'lost causes'.  It's their decision to make.  Bernie's message has value, even if his candidacy doesn't.   To use an old and brash analogy: Even if this battle is lost, some are fighting to win a war.

 

Exactly. Or using the sports analogy, you play till the final whistle.

 

I'm actually surprised how well Bernie has actually done. HRC needs to thank god she didn't face Warren. In hindsight, Warren would probably have won this.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I think you're really minimizing what people hope to achieve.   As soon as the public/media acknowledge you have a voice, you don't just stop talking....

 

He doesn't have to stop talking, but he's continuing to sell people that the nomination is possible and taking their money in to campaign for that outcome.  Even though it's comically unlikely.

 

So the only way Bernie can keep his message out there is to lie about his odds of winning to his supporters so he can get media time? Is that what I'm hearing?

[DaveW]

He doesn't have to stop talking, but he's continuing to sell people that the nomination is possible and taking their money in to campaign for that outcome.  Even though it's comically unlikely.

 

So the only way Bernie can keep his message out there is to lie about his odds of winning to his supporters so he can get media time? Is that what I'm hearing?

 

"It's just a little airborne! It's still good! It's still good!"

 

[PseudoSABR]

 

He doesn't have to stop talking, but he's continuing to sell people that the nomination is possible and taking their money in to campaign for that outcome.  Even though it's comically unlikely.

 

So the only way Bernie can keep his message out there is to lie about his odds of winning to his supporters so he can get media time? Is that what I'm hearing?

As long as his supporters continue to tell him (through their hard won dollars) to keep fighting for the nomination, he should do so.  And do you really think his 'voice' would be heard (really at all) without the pretense of the election? Give me a break.  Bernie's been delivering the same message for years, what's changed is the platform, which provides the means for his voice to be heard.  As soon as he drops out, there will be relative quiet about wealth inequality, which freaking matters to whole bunch of liberals.

 

The notion that Bernie is lying or somehow immorally mining the poor of their dollars is the real comedy going on here.  

[PseudoSABR]

 

"It's just a little airborne! It's still good! It's still good!"

 

Substance.  

 

Can you post with it!? 

[TheLeviathan]

 

As long as his supporters continue to tell him (through their hard won dollars) to keep fighting for the nomination, he should do so.  And do you really think his 'voice' would be heard (really at all) without the pretense of the election? Give me a break.  Bernie's been delivering the same message for years, what's changed is the platform, which provides the means for his voice to be heard.  

 

The notion that Bernie is lying or somehow immorally mining the poor of their dollars is the real comedy going on here.  

 

So Jeb Bush and Marco Rubio should've kept going too?  Again, people being willing to hand you their money doesn't mandate you take it and spend it.

 

And yes, this platform has given Bernie more voice than he has ever had.  We've just reached a point at which there isn't much more to gain.  The return on dollars spent is pretty much nill.

 

And all politicians who want to stay in a race spin a story of being able to compete.  Kasich is doing it. 

Rubio was doing it.  Bush was doing it.  Bernie is selling a complete load of bull to keep running his campaign.  Do I think he's doing it malevolently?  No.  Foolishly?  Yes.

[PseudoSABR]

 

So Jeb Bush and Marco Rubio should've kept going too?  Again, people being willing to hand you their money doesn't mandate you take it and spend it.

You're intentionally ignoring the basic point that Bernie represents an altogether marginalized view point.  If you're argument is left with comparisons to establishment republicans, I think I've made my point.

[DaveW]

 

Substance.  

 

Can you post with it!? 

Dude, baring a significant health issue from Hilary, Bernie CAN NOT win. Thus the simpsons gif.

He can't win, it can't happen, there is literally no path to the nomination for him at this stage.

Kasich/Cruz on the other hand have a shot because the GOP convention will be open/contested.

There is no shame in bowing out when you know you can't win, Bernie should take the opportunity now to stop accepting donations from people who really, really shouldn't be spending the money on a campaign that he can not win. Use the rest of the money to hold a couple more interviews/rallies etc and call it a day.

 

The problem is the longer he stays in, the longer the impressionable/first time/young voters will continue to pump money into a lost cause. Or he should implore his followers to donate that money/time and effort to a local charity/soup kitchen etc which would surely "help" the disenfranchised significantly more than dumping money into a lost cause.

If you don't believe me:

Check out

https://www.reddit.com/r/SandersForPresident/

 

 

 

[TheLeviathan]

 

You're intentionally ignoring the basic point that Bernie represents an altogether marginalized view point.  If you're argument is left with comparisons to establishment republicans, I think I've made my point.

 

Um, no.  You argued that if people are willing to give you money you should keep going - by that argument Jeb Bush should still be running.  

 

You're making this a moral issue of "standing up for the little guy" - except to do that you have to take the little guy's money and spend it.  At some point it should be asked if that's accomplishing anything.  In my opinion, we've reached the point where the answer is "no".

[DaveW]

 

 

  Bernie is selling a complete load of bull to keep running his campaign.  Do I think he's doing it malevolently?  No.  Foolishly?  Yes.

That is my main issue, he is promising a literal impossible utopia that has no chance to happen in 2016 America.

He is a good man, unlike Trump, but Trump is basically doing the same thing:

"I will lower taxes!"
"I will defeat ISIS!"
"I will get you all jobs!"
"I will build a wall!"
"I will make the best deals!"
While providing no real substance or Nuance.

It's the same as
"You will have free college!"
"I will get you out of your student loan OBLIGATIONS!"

"Free health care for all!"
"No more wars, ever!"

 

Bernie just has his heart in the right place.

[Squirrel]

 

Exactly. Or using the sports analogy, you play till the final whistle.

I'm actually surprised how well Bernie has actually done. HRC needs to thank god she didn't face Warren. In hindsight, Warren would probably have won this.

Long before anyone threw their hats in the ring, I was hoping Warren would run. Although, the other side of that would be I'd miss her much-needed voice in the Senate.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

So Jeb Bush and Marco Rubio should've kept going too?  Again, people being willing to hand you their money doesn't mandate you take it and spend it.

 

And yes, this platform has given Bernie more voice than he has ever had.  We've just reached a point at which there isn't much more to gain.  The return on dollars spent is pretty much nill.

 

And all politicians who want to stay in a race spin a story of being able to compete.  Kasich is doing it. 

Rubio was doing it.  Bush was doing it.  Bernie is selling a complete load of bull to keep running his campaign.  Do I think he's doing it malevolently?  No.  Foolishly?  Yes.

I was with you, if disagreeing, until the "load of bull" part. Candidates can stay in or out as long as they wish. Bush was drawing single digits. O'Malley was drawing single digits. Bernie just won a couple more states last night -- my, how those young first time college kids suddenly know how to organize in those states!

[TheLeviathan]

 

I was with you, if disagreeing, until the "load of bull" part. Candidates can stay in or out as long as they wish. Bush was drawing single digits. O'Malley was drawing single digits. Bernie just won a couple more states last night -- my, how those young first time college kids suddenly know how to organize in those states!

 

The problem is that the Democratic model of nominating their candidate (with super delegates) makes Bernie's case pretty much impossible.  He'd have to win at least 60% of the vote from here on to get there and I just don't see how that's possible.  I think I heard after the Arizona loss that it's closer to 70% now.  It's a false bill of goods for him to suggest he can win this.  He's right that the states voting now (read: the more white states) give him a better shot...but this thing is over.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Boy I take issue with a bunch of this.  First - is it really the base or is it a fringe he's appealing to?  The same kind of fringe Trump is appealing to that the Republican party has become to centered and not extreme enough?   That's not the base.  He, like Trump, is appealing heavily with first-timers and people typically outside the political process.  

 

You could argue he's tapping into a segment of the democratic base that has gone untapped for awhile, but it sure as hell ain't the base.

 

And second - issues based?  I really don't see that with Sanders.  He's a couple trick pony, he's just picked some really smart ponies.  Again, much like Trump.  He and Trump are harping on one issue evenly (free trade agreements) and he's harping on wall-street vs. middle America and college debt.  That's really about it.  They're smart issues to stump on and they have clearly driven the conversation towards those issues.  But they're out there, what further is his campaign accomplishing?

Is Bernie a one-trick pony? Kinda, and that's why I question whether he'd be a good president.

 

But that's okay in a presidential primary. He's stumping consistently on a few issues that matter to his base, issues Hillary has been weak on for years.

 

And Bernie being in the race is good for Hillary. If Bernie conceded today, all press coverage would shift to the GOP sideshow and Hillary would go dark until the convention. That's a losing situation for the Democratic Party as a whole.

 

There's nothing immoral about stumping on what you believe might help America, provided you do it in a respectable, presidential manner... And Bernie has done just that. He's trying to steer the conversation toward his issues and has done a respectable job of accomplishing his goal. And he's doing it entirely on private donations, which means his message resonates with a large group of Americans. In today's lobby-centric political machine, I don't see how anyone can view that as a bad thing.

 

People are acting as if Bernie has 150 delegates. Proportionally speaking, he's closer to Hillary than Cruz is to Trump, yet no one is calling for Cruz to bow out of the race.

[DaveW]

 

 

 

 

People are acting as if Bernie has 150 delegates. Proportionally speaking, he's closer to Hillary than Cruz is to Trump, yet no one is calling for Cruz to bow out of the race.

Apple Brandy to Orange Soda comparison there buddy.

As mentioned previously, the GOP convention will be open/contested.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Apple Brandy to Orange Soda comparison there buddy.

So what? In pure election delegates, he's running pretty close behind Hillary. Will he win the nomination? No. Does that matter? Not really.

 

Considering how it's beneficial to Hillary to have a reasonable candidate to debate and keep energy high in the base, I don't understand why some Hillary supporters are in such a tizzy about Bernie staying in the race. It's good for the party and it's good for Hillary.

[stringer bell]

I'm not a Democratic regular, but if I were, I'd say the best place to spend money donated to Bernie's campaign would be downballot. For a party that is the heavy favorite to win a third straight term in the White House, Democrats have incredibly few elected officials.

 

On a related topic, I think one would say that Sanders is attracting money and votes from the liberal wing of the Democratic party, a constituency that votes for Democrats, but has become restive with the progressiveness of the standard-bearers who won in the last 20 years.

 

 

[TheLeviathan]

 

And Bernie being in the race is good for Hillary. If Bernie conceded today, all press coverage would shift to the GOP sideshow and Hillary would go dark until the convention. That's a losing situation for the Democratic Party as a whole.

 

 

People are acting as if Bernie has 150 delegates. Proportionally speaking, he's closer to Hillary than Cruz is to Trump, yet no one is calling for Cruz to bow out of the race.

 

I don't think Hillary becomes obscure at all.  All she has to do to stay in the media cycle is keep pounding on Trump.

 

And yes, I think it's good the way Sanders is raising money.  But again, that means every day he stays in the race is on the backs of those private donations.  It's worth asking, for what purpose is he spending people's money?  Is it gaining his view point any additional traction?  I'd argue he peaked and the return on money spent is very little.

 

And I'd argue Cruz should drop out.  He and Kasich are also living a fool's dream of what they can accomplish.  Winnable states for Cruz are pretty much gone.  On the other hand, Hillary's super delegates pretty much make this contest settled also.  

[Mike Sixel]

Imagine how far to the right Hillary would be swinging if Bernie weren't around. She's almost more conservative than the first Bush already.

[PseudoSABR]

 

Um, no.  You argued that if people are willing to give you money you should keep going - by that argument Jeb Bush should still be running.  

 

You're making this a moral issue of "standing up for the little guy" - except to do that you have to take the little guy's money and spend it.  At some point it should be asked if that's accomplishing anything.  In my opinion, we've reached the point where the answer is "no".

That was ONE point of my argument, which is more broad than you're willing to acknowledge, quibble-master.  I'm not making a moral issue out of anything. (Please don't tell me what I'm arguing or doing or saying, as you're not doing me the service of portraying my viewpoint accurately).  

 

If people want to give him money to continue to speak about issues they feel are important (and which also have been totally marginalized in our recent public discourse) in spite of Bernie's unlikely nomination, there's nothing immoral or fishy or foolish about Bernie continuing to run his campaign and speaking for these people.  

[PseudoSABR]

 

Is Bernie a one-trick pony? Kinda, and that's why I question whether he'd be a good president.

 

But that's okay in a presidential primary. He's stumping consistently on a few issues that matter to his base, issues Hillary has been weak on for years.

 

And Bernie being in the race is good for Hillary. If Bernie conceded today, all press coverage would shift to the GOP sideshow and Hillary would go dark until the convention. That's a losing situation for the Democratic Party as a whole.

 

There's nothing immoral about stumping on what you believe might help America, provided you do it in a respectable, presidential manner... And Bernie has done just that. He's trying to steer the conversation toward his issues and has done a respectable job of accomplishing his goal. And he's doing it entirely on private donations, which means his message resonates with a large group of Americans. In today's lobby-centric political machine, I don't see how anyone can view that as a bad thing.

 

People are acting as if Bernie has 150 delegates. Proportionally speaking, he's closer to Hillary than Cruz is to Trump, yet no one is calling for Cruz to bow out of the race.

Amen.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

The problem is that the Democratic model of nominating their candidate (with super delegates) makes Bernie's case pretty much impossible.  He'd have to win at least 60% of the vote from here on to get there and I just don't see how that's possible.  I think I heard after the Arizona loss that it's closer to 70% now.  It's a false bill of goods for him to suggest he can win this.  He's right that the states voting now (read: the more white states) give him a better shot...but this thing is over.

Meh, that's what politicians do, is sell hope. Of course there are a few first timers who still believe but reality will hit them eventually.

 

Also if for whatever unlikely reason HRC bows out, or her emails to the Benghazi terrorists get published, then Bernie would probably stand as the successor. Very unlikely but not impossible.

[DaveW]

 

 Will he win the nomination? No. Does that matter? Not really.

 

 

I would say that if you are running for POTUS winning the nomination actually does matter.
As far as this "helping Hilary bit" I don't see it. If you really wanted to "help" Hilary then Bernie should step down and through his support behind her, spend the next couple months "easing" the tensions between his supporters and her.

There would be plenty of media coverage of Clinton moving forward anyways, all of her speeches, interviews, and she would be able to turn her attention to Trump/Cruz/Whoever moving forward as well.

Also the VP selection process keeps her in the media as well. In the era of 24/7 news coverage, Hilary and her coverage is going NOWHERE.

[Willihammer]

The Prez nomination is is just one item on the agenda at the DNC. Delegates will elect party officers and write the party platform. Perhaps that has been Sanders' goal all along- to move the party to a more leftist platform and get new blood into office within the party by bringing as many delegates to the convention as he can.

[DaveW]

 

Also if for whatever unlikely reason HRC bows out, or her emails to the Benghazi terrorists get published, then Bernie would probably stand as the successor. Very unlikely but not impossible.

In that scenario Biden hopes in and likely wins the nomination. The dems can't put Bernie up, because there is a very good chance he would lose the GE.

[DaveW]

 

 

The Prez nomination is is just one item on the agenda at the DNC. Delegates will elect party officers and write the party platform. Perhaps that has been Sanders' goal all along- to move the party to a more leftist platform and get new blood into office within the party by bringing as many delegates to the convention as he can.

Bernie isn't a democrat though.