2016 Election Thread

[DaveW]

Also if Bernie really cared about the plight of the common man, poor person, disenfranchised, etc then he shouldn't accept their "$17 average donation" or whatever crap talking point he constantly points to. Tell those people to SAVE that money themselves or to invest that money, or go use that money and support their local neighborhood economy. Instead he lets them donate money they shouldn't be donating and is basically lighting it on fire, since he can't win.

[Craig Arko]

I guess if insults won elections, this one would be well decided.

 

Good thing it doesn't work that way.

[PseudoSABR]

 

But that's the biggest problem I have with Bernie is that he isn't proposing to do things this way. I am often 'accused' of not wanting to try for change when I suggest incremental change vs 'do it all now' change. That's where he's flawed for me ... not the issues, but the how. And I think that's a big flaw for a presidential candidate. Not that you can't point to flaws with any of them in one regard or another.

So we wait for the perfect plan, and then do something?  I'd rather decide to do something and take time and gov't resources to figure out how to best get that done.   Even using whatever Bernie's plan is puts us on the path to figuring what actually will work.  If Bernie's plan doesn't work, you don't give up the goal, you try a different means.  We shouldn't be afraid of government failure, it's how we learn to institute better policies. 

 

Well, Clinton certainly is the incremental change candidate.  I mean, what incremental changes will 1) actually have an impact 2) will make real progress towards the goal of free higher education?  For my part, incremental change argument is really one about political viability and not so much about what is governmentally possibly.

[PseudoSABR]

 

Protesters by and large are THE WORST. Get a job or hobby.

Well they are slightly more tolerable than internet posters who demand for others to post facts which are readily available on that same internet.

[USAFChief]

 

This is my two-cents on governance and free college.

 

Universal higher education, just like universal health care, should not again be relegated to "let's not do it, until we have the fool proof plan." The debate shouldn't be about whether or not to institute free college, the debate should be how we get that done.  We need to experiment, and perhaps the States might be a good place to test-drive some possible plans--just as Colorado is doing with legalizing pot, or Massachusetts did with Romenycare.  

Uh...gotta disagree here, Pseudo.

 

Universal health care I can get behind.

 

Universal higher education?  No.  Nobody has a "right" to use my money to go to college.  For one thing, there are lots of Americans who don't belong in college, as well as some who do but will just use my money to take some paid time off.

 

I'm fine with government helping out to those with need, but by and large, higher education should be bought and paid for. 

 

Come out of school with debt?  How is that bad, and how is that my fault?  I'm in debt for some of the things that make my life better too...you gonna help with my mortgage?

[PseudoSABR]

 

Also if Bernie really cared about the plight of the common man, poor person, disenfranchised, etc then he shouldn't accept their "$17 average donation" or whatever crap talking point he constantly points to. Tell those people to SAVE that money themselves or to invest that money, or go use that money and support their local neighborhood economy. Instead he lets them donate money they shouldn't be donating and is basically lighting it on fire, since he can't win.

Right.  He should start writing them checks himself if he really cared!  He should give up one his Kidneys while he's at it!

 

If Clinton really cared, she would use her PAC money to build hospitals, and if Trump really cared he would use his wealth to build the Wall, and if Dave really cared he would spend more time making better arguments and doing a bit of research on his own!

[DaveW]

 

Well they are slightly more tolerable than internet posters who demand for others to post facts which are readily available on that same internet.

Yet these people can't find any facts........again, other then young white males, what demographic has Bernie "won" over Hilary overall? "very liberal people" isn't a demographic btw.

[DaveW]

 

 

Right.  He should start writing them checks himself if he really cared!  He should give up one his Kidneys while he's at it!

 

If Clinton really cared, she would use her PAC money to build hospitals, and if Trump really cared he would use his wealth to build the Wall, and if Dave really cared he would spend more time making better arguments and doing a bit of research on his own!

I don't think Clinton or any politician anywhere really cares about the plight of the poor. Hilary certainly doesn't, so she isn't being a hypocrite like Bernie.

[DaveW]

 

 

I guess if insults won elections, this one would be well decided.

 

Good thing it doesn't work that way.

5 posts later and you still haven't answered the very simple question I asked. Just more quips.

Reminds me of Bernie as a whole, lots of good sounding quips and sound bites, very little to no substance/plan to back it up.

 

[DaveW]

 

 

Uh...gotta disagree here, Pseudo.

 

Universal health care I can get behind.

 

Universal higher education?  No.  Nobody has a "right" to use my money to go to college.  For one thing, there are lots of Americans who don't belong in college, as well as some who do but will just use my money to take some paid time off.

 

I'm fine with government helping out to those with need, but by and large, higher education should be bought and paid for. 

 

Come out of school with debt?  How is that bad, and how is that my fault?  I'm in debt for some of the things that make my life better too...you gonna help with my mortgage?

Yeah, free 4 year education is a freaking joke, all that is going to lead to is more lifelong "academics", history students and art majors. I am all for free trade schools though or 2 years of community college. Let people go get a skill (assuming they meet certain academic standards) and then let them enter the workforce with a useful skill/degree or they can then go on to get their bachelors (and take out 2 years less in loans)

 

I came out of school with over 60k in debt, I will have it completely paid off in the next 6 months for a total of 80k or so, it builds character.

 

If you don't want to pay off student loans, then don't go out and get student loans!

[TheLeviathan]

 

This is my two-cents on governance and free college.

 

Universal higher education, just like universal health care, should not again be relegated to "let's not do it, until we have the fool proof plan." The debate shouldn't be about whether or not to institute free college, the debate should be how we get that done.  We need to experiment, and perhaps the States might be a good place to test-drive some possible plans--just as Colorado is doing with legalizing pot, or Massachusetts did with Romenycare.  

 

I'm going to bounce off of Chief's post here which I largely agreed with.  Many places in Europe have very cheap or free college education because they have already weeded out a significant portion of the population as unfit for college.  Bernie's plan allows everyone - college capable or not - to get free education.  That's nothing more than a dumbed down second high school.  College and higher academics were once about some pretty lofty standards and about creating capable minds in challenging fields.  Just look at some of the absurd class offerings you can get any college.

 

And let's also end this "perfect plan" nonsense - how about one that doesn't suck terribly?  Bernie's plan is to gold stamp the funding of colleges - the same ones exploiting young people out of tens (or hundreds) of thousands of dollars with no remorse.  

 

No plan about higher education should even be entertained without two things first - every college that doesn't cut it's tuition rates to inflation levels from 1965 to present day (we can be flexible, but the rate of increase today is laughably insane) - is immediately going to become a taxed entity with no support from local or federal governments.  Colleges HAVE to reign their spending and tuition increases in.  Second - all available money to students who want to go to college is based on a combination of merit and financial need.  No longer is the ability to print your name on a FASFA sufficient for being a college student.

 

Bernie's plan is literally the opposite of both those things.  It's terrible.

[PseudoSABR]

 

Uh...gotta disagree here, Pseudo.

 

Universal health care I can get behind.

 

Universal higher education?  No.  Nobody has a "right" to use my money to go to college.  For one thing, there are lots of Americans who don't belong in college, as well as some who do but will just use my money to take some paid time off.

 

I'm fine with government helping out to those with need, but by and large, higher education should be bought and paid for. 

 

Come out of school with debt?  How is that bad, and how is that my fault?  I'm in debt for some of the things that make my life better too...you gonna help with my mortgage?

I misspoke by saying universal higher education. I don't mean universal higher education, in that everyone must go; rather that it's universally free and available to those who qualify. The free-market approach is what we currently have, where you just throw money at the school, and they let you in.  If schools aren't in the position of farming for tuition, their admission standards can become meaningful.  And hopefully the degrees-to-jobs ratio goes way up.

 

Also, for my part, any higher education plan would need to include expansion of vocational education.   We need a system that helps put kids in the right track towards their capabilities - we don't have that now.   

 

How is school-loan debt bad? Well it deprives the economy of all those dollars spent paying them back, along with the interest rate.  Less home sales, less retail sales, less car sales equals less jobs and more poverty and greater draw on social resources.

 

We can take the 'not my money' approach to any issue that doesn't directly affect us; from what wars we fight, to any social program.  Yeah, yeah, it's not your fault, but hell, it'd be great if you'd help become part of the solution.  

 

An 18 year old purchasing education is not at all like a person who is about to buy a home, a person presumably with enough wealth to be able to afford that home.  Part of the problem with the loan-system is that it's blind to ability/capacity to repay that loan.  Our education lending is a lot like the subprime lending that led to the 2008 crash...

 

 

[DaveW]

 

 education lending is a lot like the subprime lending that led to the 2008 crash...

Except that it isn't, and fundamentally a student loan is nothing like a mortgage.

[Craig Arko]

I wonder if robotic factories will fund Social Security?

[USAFChief]

 

I wonder if robotic factories will fund Social Security?

I, for one, welcome the new overlords which will be necessary to oversee the robots working in the robotic factories who will fund my social security.

[Craig Arko]

 

I, for one, welcome the new overlords which will be necessary to oversee the robots working in the robotic factories who will fund my social security.

Then you better plan on helping to pay to educate them. You will, one way or another.

 

Actually it's mostly these younger folks who will.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I wonder if robotic factories will fund Social Security?

 

this is an issue for sure.........hence my proposal way up about giving everyone money from birth.....

[DaveW]

 

this is an issue for sure.........hence my proposal way up about giving everyone money from birth.....

We need to just let Social Security run out in the next 25-30 years. It was so stupidly implemented to begin with that we need to get rid of it ASAP.

[formerly33]

 

Uh...gotta disagree here, Pseudo.

 

Universal health care I can get behind.

 

Universal higher education?  No.  Nobody has a "right" to use my money to go to college.  For one thing, there are lots of Americans who don't belong in college, as well as some who do but will just use my money to take some paid time off.

 

I'm fine with government helping out to those with need, but by and large, higher education should be bought and paid for. 

 

Come out of school with debt?  How is that bad, and how is that my fault?  I'm in debt for some of the things that make my life better too...you gonna help with my mortgage?

Okay ... I'm not a fan of Bernie Sanders, but ... what? First of all, college is WAY too expensive. I know people who are what, late 30's, early 40's who went to the college I've wanted to go to for years, and could afford it, too? I mean, everyone takes out loans for college, but these days ... sigh. Here I am, barely a generation younger, and I don't have a hope. No, I'm not going to help with your mortgage. I don't even want you to help with my college. But we have a bigger problem than that. The problem is not that I'm going to come out of school drowning in debt - it's that I'm not going to get the education I would like because I'm not going to let myself drown in student loans.

 

Again, do you seriously think kids are going to graduate from high school and spend their years in college, wasting your money? You might have to think again. College isn't all fun and games unless you can afford for it to be all fun and games. And the trend seems to be that you go to college if you can afford for it to be all fun and games. I know that's an exaggeration to some extent, but really. If it wasn't this way, if more than just the rich kids could go to college, I'm guessing the standards would be raised (cue: remember your "lots of Americans don't belong in college" line). You just might start getting in for your brains and dedication rather than your money. Because, you know, you actually have to get in to college; you can't *just go.*

 

And this leads me to people using your money for "paid time off." No, I don't see that happening. A higher education shouldn't be all fun and games - it should be, well, a higher education. And that takes a lot of work. And they wouldn't exactly be paid to be in college. They'd be working to get an education so they could get a job and then be paid. I mean, if you had a choice between hard work learning stuff and not being paid or hard work doing stuff and being paid, what would you pick? I'm guessing the latter, unless of course you needed the former first, in which case ... fine.

 

But ... what am I saying? I sound like a Bernie supporter, and I'm not. I'm really not. It's just that there are problems with this whole college scenario, and no, I don't like it. Unfortunately I'm not offering any actual solutions ... just harping about the whole process. But I honestly don't think we'd have people leeching the system, so to speak, if Bernie's vision worked. I hate that argument. But if I'm wrong, please correct me. It's just that your comment about people not belonging in college really got me going here ... God knows I've heard that one enough times in my life ... and you know, wouldn't you agree that everyone in our developed, first world country should be entitled to have the ability to make a living wage, which is mostly only possible now with a college degree?

[PseudoSABR]

 

Except that it isn't, and fundamentally a student loan is nothing like a mortgage.

It is in the terms that I described--in that people aren't properly screened to determine whether they can afford the loan. 

 

(And it was Chief who made the comparison of mortgages to student loans, but somehow I think you'd rather correct me on this point.)

[PseudoSABR]

 

Bernie's plan is literally the opposite of both those things.  It's terrible.

I agree with your criticism, but whatever we've been doing hasn't worked, and no other candidate has ever made fixing funding-for-college a campaign issue.  I think it's better to have a bad plan that gets rid of tuition, than have nothing at all, in that the bad plan might provide a blueprint and an incentive to actually deal with the problem.

[DaveW]

 

(And it was Chief who made the comparison of mortgages to student loans, but somehow I think you'd rather correct me on this point.)

Did Chief say this?

 

education lending is a lot like the subprime lending that led to the 2008 crash...

 

 

[DaveW]

 

 

  I think it's better to have a bad plan that gets rid of tuition, than have nothing at all

I'm sure some people have also thought that throwing gasoline on a fire is better than just letting it burn, that doesn't make it even close to a good idea.

[PseudoSABR]

 

I'm sure some people have also thought that throwing gasoline on a fire is better than just letting it burn, that doesn't make it even close to a good idea.

If Bernie really cared he'd burn the whole world down!

[PseudoSABR]

 

Did Chief say this?

Way to avoid the actual legitimacy of the comparison! You're such an honest broker, Dave, always love having discussions with you!

[Craig Arko]

All righty, these are not the people to piss off.

 

http://mic.com/articles/137914/anonymous-just-declared-war-on-donald-trump-with-massive-cyberattack#.mSKXB6FzN

[DaveW]

 

All righty, these are not the people to piss off.

http://mic.com/articles/137914/anonymous-just-declared-war-on-donald-trump-with-massive-cyberattack#.mSKXB6FzN

I'm shocked it has taken this long, however unless they actually dig up some info that will tank his chances (it would have to be a major scandal) it just makes Trump look more and more like a victim to his zombie supporters.

[DaveW]

 

 

Way to avoid the actual legitimacy of the comparison! You're such an honest broker, Dave, always love having discussions with you!

:wub: :wub:

My point is it's an apples and oranges comparison. I say that Bernie has no path to the nomination, you disagree. I say that Bernie is only winning the white male (young white male) demographic, people cry out "that's not true" but haven't put forth any additional demo that Bernie beats Hilary in other than "Super liberal people"

 

Is he winning with:

A35+? No

A50+? No

Women? No

Women 35+? No

Women 50+? No

Hispanics? No

Hispanics 35+? No

Hispanics 50+? No

 

etc etc etc

 

Sorry man, just calling it like it is, big ideas and big speeches are nice, but facts are facts. Bernie can't win.

[DaveW]

Also one factor that is hurting Hilary a bit is sexism. I think you still have a decent chunk of the MALE population who secretly don't want a woman in charge of the country (on in their professional careers etc) if Bernie was running against Biden or Obama he wouldn't win any state besides Vermont, NH, Oregon and Washington. I think it's taking some people longer then others to come around to a female president and that is kinda sad. Hopefully Bernie does the right thing, drops out in a few weeks and fully endorsed hilary.

[Mike Sixel]

NO ONE but you is saying he is winning any vote (other than Michigan, MN, and several other states). We are saying that it isn't true that ONLY white, young, college, males are voting for him. Which is how this whole thread started.......

 

YOU are the only one arguing about what votes he's winning or not.....you. no one else.

 

As for the cost of college, when we went to school, you could work part time and pay for college. My son attends an instate small public university, and it costs more than 20K per year.......so, yes, the costs are out of control, and saying "just work, that's what I did" pretty much ignores what is actually happening in the world. Not that facts matter.....