Twins franchise four

[gunnarthor]

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/events/all_star/y2015/franchise_four.jsp?c_id=min

 

You can vote on the four franchise players in Twins history.

ESPN's Schonfield had a blog on it today - http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/57146/franchise-four-al-central - and I agreed with his four picks - Walter Johnson, Kirby Puckett, Harmon Killebrew and Rod Carew.  All four are in the HOF.  Pretty hard to argue against any of them.

[Winston Smith]

You could probably make a strong case for Goose Goslin over Kirby.

[Kirby_waved_at_me]

While the numbers say Carew > Oliva, I still favor Tony O in a completely subjective ballot.

 

Even though it is the same franchise, the Senators get short-changed - It wouldn't upset me if MLB wanted to celebrate the Senators separately to show some love to Sam Rice, Joe Judge, and Goose Goslin as well as Walter Johnson.

 

My list would be Walter Johnson, Harmon, Kirby, and Tony O (with the admission that Carew had better stats).

[davidc3915]

What???? No Nishioka????  The outrage....

[ashbury]

 

What???? No Nishioka????  The outrage....

Overrated.

[DocBauer]

I dont mean to sound snobbish or too much a modernist, but, I kind of have a hard time including the great Walter Johnson on this list simply because his era, his team, was not the Minnesota Twins.

 

I'd actually be very much in favor of the Twins bridging the gap between the Senators and MN Twins, celebrating and embracing the past and the connection. But they never have.

 

Babe Ruth played in the early half of the last century, but he has always been a Yankee. (No Red Sox noise please) But Johnson wasn't a Twins, he was a Senator decades before the team moved.

[gunnarthor]

I dont mean to sound snobbish or too much a modernist, but, I kind of have a hard time including the great Walter Johnson on this list simply because his era, his team, was not the Minnesota Twins.

I'd actually be very much in favor of the Twins bridging the gap between the Senators and MN Twins, celebrating and embracing the past and the connection. But they never have.

Babe Ruth played in the early half of the last century, but he has always been a Yankee. (No Red Sox noise please) But Johnson wasn't a Twins, he was a Senator decades before the team moved.

Agreed, but that was the rules mlb.com set up. If we just went with Twins, I'dprobabaly add Oliva or Mauer.

[DocBauer]

With all due respect to Blyleven, Viola, Radke, Santana, Oliva, Mauer.....sigh....enough. All due respect to these and more, I'd be very tempted to pick Hbrek as my 4th were we to limit the discussion simply to the Twins portion of history.

 

Local kid does good. Unless my memory is going...(and it's possible)...I believe he finished second to Ripken for ROY. (Always thought he got hosed because Ripken was a SS, but then again, I may have been prejudicial in this regard) He had a long, productive and consistent career and was a fixture for two World Series teams.

[jimmer]

 

With all due respect to Blyleven, Viola, Radke, Santana, Oliva, Mauer.....sigh....enough. All due respect to these and more, I'd be very tempted to pick Hbrek as my 4th were we to limit the discussion simply to the Twins portion of history.

Local kid does good. Unless my memory is going...(and it's possible)...I believe he finished second to Ripken for ROY. (Always thought he got hosed because Ripken was a SS, but then again, I may have been prejudicial in this regard) He had a long, productive and consistent career and was a fixture for two World Series teams.

Doesn't Mauer fall under the local boy does good umbrella? If that's the reason, why would Hrbek be over Mauer?

 

And Ripken deserved ROY that year

[ashbury]

I thought in recent years the Nationals had embraced the Senators' heritage.

[formerly33]

I voted for that a while ago. I think I did Walter Johnson, Harmon Killebrew, Kirby Puckett, and Burt Blyleven. Not sure though. May have been Carew instead of Blyleven, but I don't think so.

[DocBauer]

Doesn't Mauer fall under the local boy does good umbrella? If that's the reason, why would Hrbek be over Mauer?

 

And Ripken deserved ROY that year

History. Hrbek has his, and it is impressive.

 

Mauer's isn't finished yet, hasn't written all his chapters. So to me, right now, I pick Hrbek over Mauer.

 

As for the Hrbek, Ripken ROY situation, I believe I was pretty clear that I am a homer.

 

Love Cal Ripken. Great HOF ballplayer. Deserving of the ROY over Hrbek? Probably. Take away, just for a moment, that he played SS and would become a HOF player and just look at the numbers in '82. For fun.

 

Ripken: 160 G/ 655 PA/ 598 AB/ 90 R/ 32 Dbl/ 5 Tpl/ 28 HR/ 93 RBI/ .264 BA/ .317 OBP/ .475 SLG/ .792OPS

 

Hrbek: 140 G/ 591 PA/ 532 AB/ 82 R/ 21 Dbl/ 4 Tpl/ 23 HR/ 92 RBI/ .301 BA/ .363 OBP/ .485 SLG/ .848 OPS

 

I don't know that games played or plate appearances are necessarily relevant, except where they may impact number of at bats, and production within the confines of those at bats.

 

Edge Ripken: runs, doubles, homers. I'm calling triples and RBI even because we are talking about 1 each.

Edge Hrbek: batting average, on base percentage, slugging and OPS. (And OPS+ if you are in to it)

 

Wait....what?! Yes sports fans, it's all true. Ripken had more runs scored, more doubles, and a higher doubles per AB %. But our boy Kent had a higher BA, OBP, SLG% (slightly) and higher OPS and OPS+ with an almost identical runs and HR % per AB, but with Kent having a higher RBI% per AB.

 

Again, it's all just for fun. But I think I can defend my "homerism" with some credibility at least.

 

P.S.= just for arguement and fun, Cal had an amazing 21 year career! But Hrbek's 14 year career is not to be sneezed at. To me, these two are always tied together a bit because of their coinciding careers and 1982 rookie seasons. Cal, with the longer career, obviously surpasses all of Hrbek's final numbers. But it is interesting to note that final career numbers continue to have Hrbek winning the BA, OBP, SLG, OPS and OPS+ numbers. And believe it or not, for their final career numbers, Hrbek actually posted higher % per AB numbers in doubles, HR and RBI.

 

All of this is simply to say...and remind...that Herbie dude was a hell of a ballplayer! And I think we sometimes forget about how good he really was.

 

P.P.S.= speedster Hrbek also stole 37 bases in his career, out of 63 attempts, for a success rate of 59%, whereas Ripken was only successful on 36 out of 75 SB attempts for a theft rate of 48%. Take that Orioles fan!

[howieramone2]

I sure hope we don't have votes for Meyer and Pinto.

[Thrylos]

 

You could probably make a strong case for Goose Goslin over Kirby.

 

Not quite.  Goslin finished his career elsewhere and his total WAR with the franchise was less than Kirby's

[Thrylos]

 

 

I thought in recent years the Nationals had embraced the Senators' heritage.

 

It is more complicated than that

Really.

When Calvin Griffith moved the franchise, it was put on paper that the whole history of the franchise moved.  And we are talking about an AL founding franchise.  And that was intact in the Griffith era.  After Pohlad bought it, it became a bit more of a regional thing, even though Pohlad was talking about NC move before the contraction stuff.  The recent iteration is totally regional, even to the ridiculousness of wearing the colors of a minor league team for a different franchise (Giants) instead of their own Senators' for some weird closed minded regionalistic reason that is so mid 20th century and pigeonholes them.  But so do the redneck concerts that kill the Target Field grass.

 

No.  The Nationals have no claim in the Senators' history whatsoever.

[USAFChief]

 

It is more complicated than that 

 

Apparently.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

I don't know that games played or plate appearances are necessarily relevant, except where they may impact number of at bats, and production within the confines of those at bats.

Edge Ripken: runs, doubles, homers. I'm calling triples and RBI even because we are talking about 1 each.
Edge Hrbek: batting average, on base percentage, slugging and OPS. (And OPS+ if you are in to it)

Games played is relevant, because it shows how often a team had to have a backup in the lineup.  Player durability has value, and Ripken obviously was the king of durability.  Twins 1B in 1982 had only an .811 OPS, which closes the gap between Hrbek and Ripken quite a bit.  Another way to look at it: a 4 WAR full season player who misses 20 games loses about 0.5 WAR, which is not necessarily insignificant.

 

Also, Hrbek's advantage in SLG is largely double-counting his advantage in AVG.  Ripken actually had higher isolated power.

 

In all Hrbek had the better offensive season, but obviously he did it at 1B (and missing a few games, at that), while Ripken did it while playing above-average defense every day at 3B/SS.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

History. Hrbek has his, and it is impressive.

Mauer's isn't finished yet, hasn't written all his chapters. So to me, right now, I pick Hrbek over Mauer.

Mauer's history isn't completely finished, but it largely is.

 

Don't get me wrong -- I am a big fan of Hrbek.  But Mauer's individual accomplishments are pretty incredible (3 batting titles at catcher, 3 Gold Gloves, the MVP, 5 Sliver Sluggers, 6 All-Star appearances), and already have him in HOF discussions despite a career that's barely lasted 10 years.  You can't really pick Hrbek over him unless you largely shift the criteria over to team performance (at which point Carew might also be susceptible?).

[Dantes929]

Why are we talking about Hrbek.  Very good player but why would anyone pick him over Mauer or Morneau?    People forget how good Mauer was before 2011.   6 time all star and 4 time top 10 MVP.   Hrbek finished there once.   Mauer's OPS and OPS+  are better.    If Mauer already accomplished all these things why wait until his career is over.       Mauer also has the Gold Gloves though I will say Hrbek was robbed more in that category than ROY in my opinion.   Morneau also has an MVP  and 2nd place MVP to his credit and was having the best year of his career and was probably a shoe in for another  MVP when he got concussed.     Santana, Mauer, Morneau, Oliva, Blyleven, Killebrew and Carew over Hrbek.  That's no insult.