Liriano At It Again

[gil4]

Our old friend Francisco Liriano had another one of those games that drives his teams crazy. Here is his line:

 

[TABLE=class: pitching-stats, width: 475]

[TH=class: team-name, bgcolor: #F1F1F1]Pittsburgh[/TH]

[TH=class: ip, bgcolor: #F1F1F1, align: center]IP[/TH]

[TH=bgcolor: #F1F1F1, align: center]H[/TH]

[TH=bgcolor: #F1F1F1, align: center]R[/TH]

[TH=bgcolor: #F1F1F1, align: center]ER[/TH]

[TH=bgcolor: #F1F1F1, align: center]BB[/TH]

[TH=bgcolor: #F1F1F1, align: center]SO[/TH]

[TH=bgcolor: #F1F1F1, align: center]HR[/TH]

[TH=class: era, bgcolor: #F1F1F1, align: center]ERA[/TH]

[TD=class: player-name]Liriano, F(L, 1-6)[/TD]

[TD=align: center]5.0[/TD]

[TD=align: center]1[/TD]

[TD=align: center]3[/TD]

[TD=align: center]2[/TD]

[TD=align: center]6[/TD]

[TD=align: center]7[/TD]

[TD=align: center]0[/TD]

[TD=align: center]4.54[/TD]

[/TABLE]

 

Pirates pitchers combined to throw a one-hitter with 10 K's, but lost 3-2 to the Padres, thanks to nine walks and an error.

[gunnarthor]

Yeah, Liriano is like that crazy ex. You still really like that weekend you took in Mexico but all that other crap you put up with ...

[Willihammer]

Obviously its like Rick Anderson said - after a year the National League will figure out Liriano, stop swinging and just let him walk the runs in.

[Linus]

Can we use this as the ultimate proof that the success or failure of player performance is, by far, on the player and not on the coaches? At this point, I am very glad to have received E. Escobar for two months of Frankie's schtick.

[gil4]

Yeah, Liriano is like that crazy ex. You still really like that weekend you took in Mexico but all that other crap you put up with ...

 

But that weekend was SO-O-O-O good... (And the crap is different from, say, Correia's, but is it really worse?)

[whydidnt]

Yes, a little maddening, but at the end of the day he gave up 2 earned runs in 5 innings. The way Correia, Pelfry and Nolasco have thrown for the Twins, That would be an improvement. When you compare what the Pirates are paying him to guys like Correia and Pelfry, you still wonder what the Twins were thinking. I'd take his line every time Correia or Pelfry pitch and be quite happy.

[Seth Stohs]

What's surprising is that there are so many people who are surprising that Liriano had a good year and followed it up with a bad year (so far)...

[LewFordLives]

I think Liriano is a little more frustrating because his stuff is just so good. Liriano has the talent to mow through opposing lineups, but he either doesn't trust his stuff or can't harnss is big frame. That's what's so frustrating.

[Beezer07]

Yes, a little maddening, but at the end of the day he gave up 2 earned runs in 5 innings. The way Correia, Pelfry and Nolasco have thrown for the Twins, That would be an improvement. When you compare what the Pirates are paying him to guys like Correia and Pelfry, you still wonder what the Twins were thinking. I'd take his line every time Correia or Pelfry pitch and be quite happy.

 

Both Correia and Nolasco had similar lines against the Yankees over the weekend (in terms of allowing a ton of baserunners but few runs) and were rightly criticized.

[whydidnt]

I don't know. Last year Correia had a 4.40 FIP and everyone was talking about how good he was. This year Liriano's FIP is 3.91 and everyone thinks he's having a horrible year. I think some have been listening to the Anti-Walk propaganda from Bert and Rick a little too much. I would much rather have Liriano, inconsistency and all, than either Correia or Pelfry, and it's not even close. Especially when you consider he signed for less.

[gunnarthor]

I don't know. Last year Correia had a 4.40 FIP and everyone was talking about how good he was. This year Liriano's FIP is 3.91 and everyone thinks he's having a horrible year. I think some have been listening to the Anti-Walk propaganda from Bert and Rick a little too much. I would much rather have Liriano, inconsistency and all, than either Correia or Pelfry, and it's not even close. Especially when you consider he signed for less.

 

On the fip thing, I suspect people are looking at more than one stat to judge him. For instance, Liriano has a negative WAR (again). He's just maddeningly inconsistent. I wasn't kidding about the crazy ex analogy. I was sick of the queasiness from watching him. 2010 was nice and all but 09, 11-12 were gut wrenching. And now he's back to it. I'm just ready to move on.

[jorgenswest]

For Liriano, it is all about the slider. Last year it was a great pitch and he threw it often. This year, it has been an average pitch and he has decreased his use slightly. Batters must be laying off it and forcing him to use the fastball or change up to get strikes.

 

If he can regain the command and dominance of the slider, he will be among the better pitchers. It's Searage's job to help him find that pitch again. No easy task.

[TheLeviathan]

Liriano's inability to deliver consistent results was my biggest point of contention to a long-term deal for him.

[whydidnt]

On the fip thing, I suspect people are looking at more than one stat to judge him. For instance, Liriano has a negative WAR (again). He's just maddeningly inconsistent. I wasn't kidding about the crazy ex analogy. I was sick of the queasiness from watching him. 2010 was nice and all but 09, 11-12 were gut wrenching. And now he's back to it. I'm just ready to move on.

 

Cant argue with the sentiment. But I will say I don't really like WAR for pitchers , doesn't seem to do a good job of really valuing worth. I get why people were frustrated with Liriano, but the point remains to those trashing his results this year, they are par or better than Correia had last year when there was a lot of love thrown his way, that I didn't get either. I still think large portions of fans have been brainwashed by the commentator and the pitching coach.

[nicksaviking]

Walks are over dramatized in my book. Six is too many but really, 1 hit and 6 BB is better than 6 hits and 1 BB and no one would even both mentioning that.

[USAFChief]

Quietly having a very nice second half for Pittsburgh.

 

With all the handwringing and gnashing of teeth over the Twins lack of top notch starting pitching, it still boggles my mind how anyone could have been in favor of letting Liriano out of the organization. It would have cost less to sign him than it cost to sign Nolasco.

[Willihammer]

Liriano? No. Headcase.

[big dog]

Quietly having a very nice second half for Pittsburgh.

 

With all the handwringing and gnashing of teeth over the Twins lack of top notch starting pitching, it still boggles my mind how anyone could have been in favor of letting Liriano out of the organization. It would have cost less to sign him than it cost to sign Nolasco.

Don't forget, Liriano was a free agent.  I've never heard any evidence that he was hoping to re-sign with the Twins.  I think a change was good for him (except for the change to the White Sox, which wasn't for that long anyway).

 

I for one don't regret not signing him.  He could just as easily have been injured for the last two years- we certainly had long stretches of that.  If he does get his slider working, it will probably just mean another operation in the near future.

 

Happy for him, glad we moved on.  The crazy ex can have a good second marriage, I'm still glad she's gone.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Walks are over dramatized in my book. Six is too many but really, 1 hit and 6 BB is better than 6 hits and 1 BB and no one would even both mentioning that.

Eh, it depends. If you walk 6 guys in a game, there's a good chance you don't make it out of the fourth inning.

 

So, do you take the additional 1-2 runs 1BB/6H allows over 6-7 innings or do you take the 6BB/1H line that probably has the guy struggling to go 5 innings?

 

And that's really the problem. If you have a guy consistently walking 3+ a game, that pitcher is going to struggle to go more than five innings an outing. That's an extra 30-35 innings on your bullpen, which affects how the bullpen pitches in the rest of their outings due to fatigue.

 

In all likelihood, that 6BB/1H pitcher is a net loss compared to the 1BB/6H pitcher over the course of a season.