Catcher-DH Combos

[Seth Stohs]

We all want to see Josmil Pinto in the lineup, so let's not make this thread about that?

 

We all question the need for a "3rd" catcher to allow both of the team's catchers to be in the starting lineup each game, so we don't need to re-discuss that.

 

I have a side-question related to the topic. I also don't have time this week to do any of the research. Here is my question:

 

Looking at the other 14 American League teams, how many of them have had a game where both of their catchers were in the starting lineup? In other words:

 

How many times have the Rays started both Jose Molina and Roman Ali Solis in a game?

How many times have the Royals played Brett Hayes and Salvador Perez in the same lineup?

 

Can someone look into that for me?

[SwainZag]

How many teams have 2 catchers that both have bats good enough to warrant being in the lineup everyday? I would have to assume the Twins are in a rare position here. That being said, if one of them were to get hurt in game, would it really be the worst thing in the world to give up the DH spot for at max a full game?

[Boom Boom]

This has been an issue for the Twins ever since Mauer came up. To keep his bat in the lineup when he wasn't catching, he would DH.

 

Then Doumit was brought in to be both a primary DH AND a 2nd catcher.

 

Now Suzuki is the primary catcher, and we're trying to find ways to get Pinto in the lineup.

 

Maybe it's a rare situation for most teams. but it's been the norm for the Twins.

[GCTF]

The A's often have Norris and Jaso in the lineup. They did, however, call up a third catcher this past weekend.

[Beezer07]

Agree with what has been said above. This is only a "problem" for the Twins for two reasons: First, Gardy is irrationally scared. Second, the Twins have had catchers for the last several years who are good enough to stay in the lineup even when not catching.

[Boom Boom]

Despite the offense the Twins have gotten from their catchers, I kind of miss the AJ/Tom Prince days, when they had one good regular catcher and one backup catcher who wouldn't sniff the lineup at all if it wasn't to give AJ a day off.

 

Pinto can be a very good player, but he's grossly miscast as a backup catcher.

[Seth Stohs]

The A's often have Norris and Jaso in the lineup. They did, however, call up a third catcher this past weekend.

 

This is kind of what I was wondering.

 

My assumptions were:

 

1.) most teams didn't have two good-hitting catchers.

2.) most teams don't have both catchers in the lineup if they only have two catchers.

 

I hear so often that the Twins are the only team to carry 3 catchers. The above shows that that isn't the case (although very rare), and Gardy isn't the only one with this "irrational" fear. Even the great Billy Beane seems to understand the concern.

[Seth Stohs]

Despite the offense the Twins have gotten from their catchers, I kind of miss the AJ/Tom Prince days, when they had one good regular catcher and one backup catcher who wouldn't sniff the lineup at all if it wasn't to give AJ a day off.

 

Like Joe Mauer and Drew Butera? That was a pretty great combination!

 

Pinto can be a very good player, but he's grossly miscast as a backup catcher.

 

Which is why he should be considered the primary DH and secondary catcher.

[Boom Boom]

No, not like Mauer and Butera - the issue started with Mauer, and him being such a good offensive catcher that he was the best DH option on days he wasn't catching.

 

Not that I wish Mauer was a worse offensive catcher. I would have rather the Twins have better options to DH on Mauer's off-days than Mauer himself.

 

And I think "primary DH/secondary catcher" isn't a great way to utilize a young player like Pinto.

[Willihammer]

Vogt gives the A’s three catchers, obviously, but can also play left field in a pinch, said Melvin. Plus, he has been hitting well in Sacramento since returning from an oblique strain on May 11. Vogt is hitting .364 with three homers and 19 RBIs in 21 games with the River Cats, including a .433 mark in his last 14 games.

 

 

Melvin said the fact Vogt provides another left-handed bat in the absence of both Moss and Reddick had "something to do with it, but more about just the best player that we have available." He did not say whether this is a long-term move, or if Vogt is just up until the A’s get a little healthier.

 

 

 

http://www.sacbee.com/2014/06/01/6448626/as-recall-stephen-vogt-option.html

 

It sounds like the A's called up this guy for his bat. Being another catcher seems to be incidental.

[GCTF]

Just for some additional context, in Oakland's 56 games before Vogt's callup Norris and Jaso have both been in the starting lineup 8 times. The first time was May 4th. Also they've appeared in the same game another 24 times. So they've played together 32 times in 56 games without a single at bat by a pitcher.

 

I have no problem with them milking every last drop they can get out of Suzuki while he's hot, but, Pinto should be playing as well.

[Shane Wahl]

There should certainly, right now, never be a game against a LH pitcher where both of them are not in the lineup.

[Shane Wahl]

Also, we can add 1B-DH combo here too, because this manager is also worried about DHing Parmelee.

[zenser]

I have never understood the need for a third catcher. So both are in the line up and one gets hurt. Obviously, the DH becomes the catcher and the pitcher bats. If that happens you deal with it for the one game and make a call to Rochester.

[Seth Stohs]

I think the point we're illustrating is that this is a very unique situation for any American League team. Even Gardy has done it from time to time (had both in lineup without 3rd catcher), but it's hard to say he's doing anything different than any other manager in the league would do. It's not a situation many teams have faced.

[Seth Stohs]

I have never understood the need for a third catcher. So both are in the line up and one gets hurt. Obviously, the DH becomes the catcher and the pitcher bats. If that happens you deal with it for the one game and make a call to Rochester.

 

Right, and as I said in the initial post, we've been over that time and again in other threads. My point in this thread was just to either find out or prove that this is not a normal thing.

[Willihammer]

No its not very often the two best hitters on a 25 man are catchers. More often they are first basemen or corner outfielders.

[cmathewson]

I am not ready to throw up my hands on the issue and say, "Gardy will never use both catchers in the line-up on the same day, therefore we need three catchers." But I was hoping we could have one more bat in the line-up instead of Kubel or Parmelee right now. And that would be Pinto.

 

So, open letter to Gardy, just do it.

[Beezer07]

No its not very often the two best hitters on a 25 man are catchers. More often they are first basemen or corner outfielders.

 

Or Eduardo Nunez

[Shane Wahl]

There is no excuse for not having Pinto in the lineup basically every day and the same is true, now, for Suzuki. Gardenhire does have irrational fears. This is clear by applying it even to first base and Parmelee. It doesn't matter how rare it might be: the fact is that two of the best nine hitters are catchers right now and this should require that a manager builds a lineup based around this without having these irrational fears.

[Mike Sixel]

Well, the Twins are faced with this situation. No matter how other teams are put together, this one has 2 "catchers" that are two of their best hitters. Therefore, they should both play more often than "not both play".

 

*I put catchers in quotes, becuase Gardy rarely plays Pinto at catcher, he must not think he is a MLB catcher yet.

[Otto von Ballpark]

I hear so often that the Twins are the only team to carry 3 catchers. The above shows that that isn't the case (although very rare), and Gardy isn't the only one with this "irrational" fear. Even the great Billy Beane seems to understand the concern.

 

As someone mentioned above, Oakland's Vogt is actually a decent hitter -- very good numbers in the minors, 95 OPS+ in his first real MLB action last year. And Norris/Jaso are both clearly better (and more valuable) than Suzuki right now -- both would warrant precautionary rest or removal from a game earlier and more frequently than Suzuki.

 

Another example would be Atlanta, who is ostensibly carrying three catchers even without the need for a regular DH, but Doumit isn't there to be a third string catcher -- he's mostly there to pinch hit and DH or play the field once in awhile. LeCroy was that player at times for the Twins too.

 

I am pretty sure the Twins are mostly alone in their desire to have a dedicated third string catcher at times, regardless of offensive ability (or lack thereof). Corky Miller, Chris Heintz, later period Butera, now Herrmann or Fryer.

 

I will say, they haven't employed a third catcher THAT often, as a percentage of each season. But probably more than most teams, and they have certainly done it repeatedly since 2005 or so, with the same type of player, usually for the same type of concerns.

[Otto von Ballpark]

I think the point we're illustrating is that this is a very unique situation for any American League team. Even Gardy has done it from time to time (had both in lineup without 3rd catcher), but it's hard to say he's doing anything different than any other manager in the league would do. It's not a situation many teams have faced.

 

The current circumstances are somewhat unique (2 of best 9 bats are currently catchers), but this isn't the first time the Twins have employed or desired three catchers either.

 

Also nothing about the situation is sudden or unexpected. Going into 2012, 2013, and even 2014, the Twins knew they had 2 catchers they liked as everyday bats and no solid everyday DH. (Actually, the "no solid everyday DH" thing goes back to... Ortiz? Molitor?) In that light, it's a bit of a roster fail to only have the likes of Butera, Herrmann, and Fryer (my irrational favorite Twin and Red Wing) available for the role. Doumit might have actually been a good 3rd string, but the Twins thought of him as top 2. Pinto might be a good one too, if the Twins simply made him the regular DH.

 

They have established clear criteria for when they want a third catcher, and seemingly every year in Gardy's tenure (since 2005 at least) built their roster to require a third catcher by that criteria, and yet every year failed to have a third catcher with any more value to a MLB roster other than already owning catching equipment.

[cmathewson]

As someone mentioned above, Oakland's Vogt is actually a decent hitter -- very good numbers in the minors, 95 OPS+ in his first real MLB action last year. And Norris/Jaso are both clearly better (and more valuable) than Suzuki right now -- both would warrant precautionary removal from a game earlier and more frequently than Suzuki.

 

Another example would be Atlanta, who is ostensibly carrying three catchers even without the need for a regular DH, but Doumit isn't there to be a third string catcher -- he's mostly there to pinch hit and DH or play the field once in awhile. LeCroy was that player at times for the Twins too.

 

I am pretty sure the Twins are mostly alone in their desire to have a dedicated third string catcher at times, regardless of offensive ability (or lack thereof). Corky Miller, Chris Heintz, later period Butera, now Herrmann or Fryer.

 

I will say, they haven't employed a third catcher THAT often, as a percentage of each season. But probably more than most teams, and they have certainly done it repeatedly since 2005 or so, with the same type of player, usually for the same type of concerns.

 

The Miller episode still makes me shudder. Having a third catcher on the roster (fourth, if you count LeCroy), Gardy felt obliged to play him to keep him fresh. He proceeded to go hitless in five games in the first month (including one at DH) and lead the team in passed balls despite limited duty. Meanwhile, they had to DFA hometown hero Mike Restovich to do keep him, leaving us short on outfielders. Sound familiar.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

There is the 2010 Cleveland Indians, who debuted top prospect Carlos Santana that year, and never carried more than two catchers all year, despite having Chris Gimenez available in AAA (a Chris Herrmann clone who played C and OF) as a possible emergency/third catcher.

 

In Cleveland's 46 games with Santana active, Santana started 40 games at catcher, 5 games at DH, and sat 1 game, but entered that game as PH.

 

There is the 2012 Seattle Mariners, who debuted top prospect Jesus Montero full time (acquired from Yankees).

 

Seattle carried three catchers all season in 2012 and all three of those catchers also got significant DH time. Montero, John Jaso, Miguel Olivo.

 

Matt Wieters had 10 games DH when he debuted in 2009, someone could look that one up.

[stringer bell]

OK. Here's my two cents. Yes, it is okay to have both catchers in the game. It is nervous time, however, whenever there is only one catcher left. That is, if Pinto pinch hits in the eighth inning, it is a situation no manager wants to be in because an injury to Suzuki would result in someone like Escobar going behind the plate. I think most managers would rather have non-pitchers pitch than have non-catchers catch. Gardy doesn't want to tempt fate and I don't blame him. The main problem with having both catchers in the lineup is that it limits flexibility.

 

I hope the Twins find someone (Hammer? Vargas?) who can become a near-everyday DH. While I do think that Pinto should be getting more at-bats, I don't think what has been done is criminal.

[howeda7]

This is kind of what I was wondering.

 

My assumptions were:

 

1.) most teams didn't have two good-hitting catchers.

2.) most teams don't have both catchers in the lineup if they only have two catchers.

 

I hear so often that the Twins are the only team to carry 3 catchers. The above shows that that isn't the case (although very rare), and Gardy isn't the only one with this "irrational" fear. Even the great Billy Beane seems to understand the concern.

 

Most teams don't have a 1B who's caught 1,000 games to serve as the emergency catcher in the 1/100 chance it's needed.

 

That said, Kubel is close to worthless right now. Hermann or another catcher should have been up a week ago. Yes, Gardy has irrational fear, but that's an not changing. Work around it already.