11 hours ago, JD-TWINS said:

What do you or I know about the demands of catching in the major leagues? All opinions. 4-5 games per week average is 50% more than what he’s been doing. It’s not all physical - it’s wear & tear of being responsible for every pitch. You don’t think that playing 50% more may affect how he feels, then how he hits? We’re going to win the Division and if we don’t it’s not going to be because Jeffers didn’t start 5 or 6 more games from here to Oct. 1. The most important factor is to have him fresh to catch 3-4 games in a row in October as needed.

Can Jeffers catch 23 or more out of 40 games left - sure. Is the change worth a change in routine - change with his offense? Only reason to catch more is so he hits more & effectively.

Regarding next year, he catches 65% of games (105 total) if he goes into the year with the mindset that he’s the guy that’s got the majority of the job. Nothing like what’s been represented to him nor put into practice for ‘23. In ‘24, Team wouldn’t wait until April 3 to tell him he’s going to catch 2 of every 3 games.

IMO, managing guys heads and keeping their heads clear on their roles ahead of time is as big as the physical rest………should be discussing his bigger role in playoffs in a couple more weeks. In the end a player’s confidence and ability to stay composed is what makes things go.

No, I don't think catching an extra game or 2 a week is going to have some drastic effect on how he feels. And if it does then he's simply not that valuable of a player. What do I know about the demands of catching in the major leagues? I know players have been catching nearly twice as many games as Jeffers is on pace to catch for a very long time, and the really good ones are doing it right now. "He'll get tired" is a weak excuse when you're talking about an extra game this week, and 2 extra next week. Why would we think he's going to catch 3-4 games in a row in October when he hasn't done it all season? You're arguing he can't catch an extra game or 2 a week now because it'll tank his performance, but he's suddenly going to be catching 4 games in a row with no ill effect? That doesn't track. You can't say he can't catch an extra game a week without falling apart and then suggest he can catch 4 games in a row in the playoffs with no problem.

Again, if catching an extra game or 2 a week tanks his offense then he isn't really that valuable of a player. 

Why would we think they're going to give him 65% of the games caught next year when they aren't willing to do it in mid-August in the middle of a division title chase? You don't think he trained for this season to be able to handle 105 games as a catcher? You think he magically stumbled into his current performance while not preparing like "he's the guy?" Man, I can't wait to see him OPS+ 200 next year when he actually thinks he's the guy!

Yes, the mental side of the game is super important as well. If Vazquez goes down tomorrow do they need to give Jeffers 2 more weeks to start discussing his increased role for the rest of the season while he splits time 50/50 with a AAA catcher? Or is his performance just going to fall apart because he's going to be so unprepared for a larger role his body won't know what to do? Ryan Jeffers doesn't need 2 more weeks to start discussing an increased role 4 weeks after the discussion. If Jeffers can't stay composed because he has to catch an extra game or 2 a week he isn't the player we hope he is. If an extra game a week crumples him I can't imagine what the weight of a playoff game is going to do to him.

2 hours ago, dxpavelka said:

Pretty sure Vasquez was signed to split time with Jeffers at C.  Few teams want a C to play more than a hundred games and fewer still have a C who should do so.  Jeffers falls in that category.

 

It was pretty publicly reported that Vazquez would only sign here if they promised him he was the main catcher and he'd get at least 60% of the games. It's why Jeffers is still at only 46% of games caught this year even though they've moved to a 50/50 split. They're deferring to the veteran even though he's being outplayed significantly by the younger player. Like the rest of the roster.

I think every team wants a C to play more than 100 games, but few have one that should. Not playing Jeffers more is them choosing to give up an advantage they have on almost every team they play. I don't get it.

22 minutes ago, saviking said:

Why not Chris Williams, who has 19 home runs and a 256 batting average in Triple-A? He's primarily a catcher but has a .997 fielding average in 53 attempts at first base. He also gives the Twins an emergency backup cather. 

All you have to do is cut Gallo.

Williams had a pretty rough July, but I'd certainly give him a shot over Gallo. Then again, I'd give you or me a shot over Gallo at this point. And, FYI, Farmer is their emergency backup catcher right now. He has caught games in the majors before as he came up as a catcher before moving to an IF spot. So that role isn't that big of a hole to fill. And Williams is not very good behind the plate, but if they move on from Farmer in the offseason it is a nice role for Williams to be able to fill.

2 minutes ago, JD-TWINS said:

Catching 4-5 games over 6-7 day series is a piece of cake for Jeffers ………..no argument………for a couple weeks……i.e. Playoffs.

The debate was about physical/mental fatigue doing it throughout 162 games. The game is a grind for left fielders in August let alone a catcher playing the bulk of the time.

They signed a guy for $30M and have been waiting for him to come around. Probably too long! Vazquez is hitting around .260 past few weeks. Still inferior to Jeffers for sure.

Organization likes the results they are getting between the pair and seems they aren’t going to vary the routine this season.

Next Spring, hopefully, the target for total games is well above 100.

Yeah, just going to have to agree to disagree. Yes, the season is a grind, and catchers have the most physically demanding position. But catchers have been catching 130+ games a year for a long time. Realmuto caught 132 games last year and didn't crumble. Yadier Molina caught 118 at the age of 38, but Jeffers can't do 130 cuz it'll just be too much for him?

I agree they won't "vary the routine this season," and I'm saying that's a problem with the organization. They don't really like to vary anything in season, and it costs them games. This organization is obsessed with rest, scheduled days off, etc. and it hasn't helped. Buxton is a separate situation, but the rest of these guys should be able to play just as much as guys have historically. Training, diets, medical procedures, everything has gotten more advanced, but Twins players can't get a single player to play 150 games a year? Don't buy it. You seem to, though, so agree to disagree.

51 minutes ago, JD-TWINS said:

The organization’s inflexibility is granted & not appreciated by me either!

130 games is too many to me. Realmuto is a unicorn.

Guys like Molina are the typical “catcher” profile and theoretically is what organizations are trying to guard against. Lost power & can’t run at all after 9-10 years. See Vazquez. I get they weren’t burners to start but they appear really beat up.

Hoping for a heavy dose of Jeffers through October!

Yadier Molina hit 20 HRs at the age of 35. If they're worried about Jeffers at the age of 36 that's a problem. They're catchers, I couldn't care less if they can run. If you're sacrificing playing time in a player's prime because you're worried about what they may be in their mid-30s you're making a massive mistake. 9-10 years after Jeffers debut puts him at age 33. If they're limiting his play at 26 because of what he may be at 33 they're making a massive mistake. Especially for a team that doesn't tend to extend a large portion of their roster. The chances that Jeffers is even in their org 9-10 years after he debuted is small.

Always worrying about the future means you're never worried about today, and you're giving yourself a self-inflicted disadvantage. Don't dictate playing time in 2023 because you're worried about what a guy may be in 2030. What a terrible strategy.

57 minutes ago, dxpavelka said:

Luckily there has never been anything "publicly reported" that has ever been anything other than 100% spot on truthful.  The reason teams seldom choose to play catchers more than 100 games is because any advantage, such as the one you say Jeffers gives them, tends to diminish as they reach and / or pass that 100 game mark.

 

I'd be happy to look at any numbers you have that support that.

JT Realmuto has been the best hitting catcher in the game for years. Caught 132 games last year. He's caught 125+ games in all but 2 of his full major league seasons. 

Joe Mauer won batting titles catching 120 and 137 games.

And Jeffers isn't on pace to catch 100 games, he's on pace to catch 75.

8 hours ago, dxpavelka said:

You named two.  And had to go back almost two decades.

 

Yadier Molina between 2009 and 2017 caught 130+ games every year but 1. And was the best catcher in baseball. He caught 118 games at the age of 38, but Jeffers can't catch 120 at the age of 26?

Salvador Perez has caught 120+ games 5 times.

Buster Posey won the MVP in 2012 catching 111 games. OPS+ of 134 in 2013 catching 119 games. OPS+ of 115 in 2016 catching 122 games. 

Sean Murphy joined JT Realmuto as the 2 best hitting catchers last year and caught 116.

2021: Salvador Perez at 120 games caught had a wRC+ of 130. Will Smith 111 games wRC+ 133. In his age 34 season Buster Posey was able to catch 102 games while maintaining a 140 OPS+. But 26 year old Jeffers can't maintain his numbers past 100 games caught, and it makes sense that the Twins are going to catch him 75-80 games this year?

Sorry my lack of a life has made it so difficult for you to prove your point, but there's more than 2 guys, none of which I had to go back 2 decades for. The 5 best hitting catchers of the last 2 years all caught well over 100 games, or were in their last professional season, and didn't collapse. 

There are 7 teams in baseball who have a team catcher OPS over .750. Jeffers has an OPS of .862. There is 1 team in baseball (Atlanta) who has a catcher OPS better than that. There are 26 teams in baseball who have a team catcher OPS over .600. Vazquez has an OPS of .579. There 2 teams in baseball (Detroit and Oakland) with a catcher OPS worse than that. You're going from Detroit's catchers to Atlanta's when you play Jeffers over Vazquez. Yes, I think it's pretty clear they have an advantage over all but 1 team in baseball when they play Jeffers, but they're choosing not to. Sorry if I question that decision. The Twins have the best hitting catcher in the AL, and 2nd best in baseball, this year and they're going to catch him in less than half the games. I don't see why people feel that's a defensible decision. But here we are.

1 hour ago, wabene said:

I'd be happy with a 60/40 split from here on out in Jeffers favor with some time at DH . He should get as many at bats as anyone the rest of the way. Playing Vasquez 40% of the time may diminish the Twins advantage as @chpettit19 says, but I'd make that small sacrifice there rest of the way to keep Jeffers fresh for the duration. They also need to see how Vasquez responds the rest of the way. While I'm excited about Carmago and even Cosetti down in A ball, I don't think they can roll with Carmago as backup next year. Maybe in '25. I see them dealing Vasquez with one year left on his deal after next year or at the deadline. 

Oh and no to Jeffers at first. Don't mess with success, let him focus on his very important job. 

At this point they've already given away their advantage this year as they were too slow to react. As long as they maintain the division lead there's no real reason to push Jeffers past a 60/40 split. But they haven't even gotten to a 60/40 split with him yet so I'm still waiting for even that adjustment. If they don't ever get to it this year I'm not sure why we'd expect them to even go 60/40 next year, but I'll wait and see before passing judgement on his usage next year. If the division race gets tight I'd hope to see him get the vast majority of games down the final stretch. In the playoffs he should catch every game. I will believe both of those things when I see them, though.

I just don't like that they don't take advantage of great years from guys while suffering through terrible ones from other guys. Too much reliance on what they thought/expected/hoped would happen, and not enough adjusting to what's actually happening. They call it patience, I call it passivity. We're in mid-August and the 2nd best hitting catcher in baseball can't get better than a 50/50 split behind the plate when the other catcher is one of the worst hitting catchers in baseball and you're struggling to stay above .500 and are in a fight for your division title? That's unacceptable to me. I agree with your assessment of the Vazquez situation, though. I highly doubt they go into next year without Jeffers and Vazquez as their 2 catchers (barring some injury). But 2025 is definitely up for grabs. And I'd hope the 2nd half of 2024 is in question if Vazquez hits like he is this year.