Rays 7, Twins 6: Miranda Blast Sends it to Extras, But Minnesota Comes up Short

Vanimal46 · June 21, 2024

4 hours ago, Parfigliano said:

Bye bye Jackson. Will some team grab him?

No. He is this year’s Jharel Cotton.

RpR · June 21, 2024

57 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

Very true. Also it’s still early in the year to be more conservative with the IL. Call up Wallner who’s swinging a hot bat. We need a left handed middle of the order bat to step up.

Yep in his last 7 at bats he has hit 1 home run with 5 Ks, Joey Wallner lives.

bean5302 · June 21, 2024

6 hours ago, DJL44 said:

Oh, and last season MLB stole 0.72 bases per game. The Twins are pretty much average at controlling the running game. Tampa is 6th in steals per game at 0.96.

You are not allowed to question Vazquez's utter dominance defensively. He is simply the greatest defensive catcher in the history of the world. So great it doesn't matter he's the worst hitter in MLB.

Please note, the intangibles which cannot be calculated or quantified or which have already been statistically eliminated from calculable differing value between players such as "game calling" are the reason Vazquez is an elite catcher.

bean5302 · June 21, 2024

1 hour ago, RpR said:

Yep in his last 7 at bats he has hit 1 home run with 5 Ks, Joey Wallner lives.

Your rage hate of Wallner is bizarre.

bean5302 · June 21, 2024

7 hours ago, Parfigliano said:

Bye bye Jackson. Will some team grab him?

I think it'd be surprising if he landed somewhere given the fact he passed through waivers last time the Twins DFA'd him, and he certainly didn't improve his results. I think he'll probably wind up back in St. Paul after he clears.

RpR · June 21, 2024

24 minutes ago, bean5302 said:

Your rage hate of Wallner is bizarre.

Your rage hate for Vazquez is bizarre.

JD-TWINS · June 21, 2024

7 hours ago, DocBauer said:

Down year for the Ray's, but they aren't a horrible team. They are always fundamentally solid. Not putting lipstick on a pig, just saying, we didn't lose to a really bad team. But it feels like we gave away 2 games, no matter how tightly played.

I didn't see the Lewis play at 3B live. Looked like it took a perfect throw to get him though. Being aggressive is normally a good thing. And it looked like a perfect throw WAS made. STILL, I might have kept him from. running and trusted in the next 2 batters.

I'm not one to ever blame a loss on a RP, unless it's just an obviously poor performance...crap happens. EXAMPLE: Alcala has been very good this season. He allowed the winning run the previous night. It happens.

But honestly, I NEVER understood the Jackson promotion. He got a couple innings to SUDDENLY prove the slider was back, even with lost velocity. He's NOT back, which is the reason for the loss today, and a bad read/mistake by Falvey.

The limited IP by Castillo were poor. Henriquez and Winder remain on the 40 man. So is Funderburk. If you want to add to the 40 man instead of Jackson, you would have done better giving someone like Blewett a shot vs a 36yo that has shown he doesn't have IT any longer. Thielbar, at LEAST has a track record and history with the Twins thats worthy of rope.

I don't know that Henriquez, or anyone else, would have done better. Maybe they wouldn't have. But giving another chance to someone who generally HASN'T performed this season was a major misstep this past week. Today's loss is not on SWR, the lineup, or Okert for a run given up. IMO, today's loss is on the FO for Jackson.

I'm sure he's a quality person, but he's just not part of a reliable pen. Good "shot in the dark" addition. But he's not part of tomorrow, or the future. Glad he's gone.

Gotta say, Lewis is supreme bat talent, but your comment about Alcala got me wound up again………Lewis essentially ended the last 2 games in losses. His error for out number 3 on Wednesday and an unearned run being charged to Alcala created that loss to a reliever. Getting thrown out while already in scoring position in the 10th inning on Thursday is not good baseball, regardless of how high end the throw was from right center.

Hitting a HR doesn’t excuse, or act as some leveling trade-off, for a bad play. Gotta say Lewis was at the heart of those 2 losses.

Thielbar’s rope is getting pretty taught as well.

Mark G · June 21, 2024

I posted a thought after Wednesday's game about being concerned with the bullpen availability for Thursday's gams, as we had used our better arms a lot recently. Unfortunately, it came to fruition with the bottom half of the bullpen having to be used in critical innings. We have stayed pretty steady all year with the pen pitching approx. 40% of the innings (currently 39), and we are only so deep in quality so the lesser arms are having to pitch in tight situations more often than I, for one, would like. I know how many people are dying to remind me that this is just the way of the game today, but it doesn't make games like today any more palatable. If my public school math classes haven't failed me, we are averaging just over 5 1/3 innings a start (by 7 hundreds of a percent), and that leaves the pen having to use multiple arms virtually every game of the year. I worry about overuse, as do a lot of us, but I find it hard to complain about individual performances by individual pitchers when that is plan A year in and year out. You live by the pen, you die by the pen. We need to start investing a larger portion of payroll into the pen to make it deeper if that is the game plan. I look at the Guardians, for example: in '22 they won the division with a deep bullpen; and I mean a deep bullpen. They fell off last year, and fell out of the standings. This year their starting rotation doesn't look so hot on paper, but their pen is really solid (at least by the numbers I read), and where are they today? Does it matter how good your starters are if they are only going to go 4 - 6 innings a start? The pen wins or loses too high of a percentage of games today to go cheap on it. As the song goes, thunder's just the noise, boys, lighting does the work. Our starting rotation might have it's share of thunder, but we need to catch a little more lightning in our bullpen. Then maybe you all won't have to listen to me go on about the overuse of the bullpen. 😉

Riverbrian · June 21, 2024

3 hours ago, Mark G said:

I posted a thought after Wednesday's game about being concerned with the bullpen availability for Thursday's gams, as we had used our better arms a lot recently. Unfortunately, it came to fruition with the bottom half of the bullpen having to be used in critical innings. We have stayed pretty steady all year with the pen pitching approx. 40% of the innings (currently 39), and we are only so deep in quality so the lesser arms are having to pitch in tight situations more often than I, for one, would like. I know how many people are dying to remind me that this is just the way of the game today, but it doesn't make games like today any more palatable. If my public school math classes haven't failed me, we are averaging just over 5 1/3 innings a start (by 7 hundreds of a percent), and that leaves the pen having to use multiple arms virtually every game of the year. I worry about overuse, as do a lot of us, but I find it hard to complain about individual performances by individual pitchers when that is plan A year in and year out. You live by the pen, you die by the pen. We need to start investing a larger portion of payroll into the pen to make it deeper if that is the game plan. I look at the Guardians, for example: in '22 they won the division with a deep bullpen; and I mean a deep bullpen. They fell off last year, and fell out of the standings. This year their starting rotation doesn't look so hot on paper, but their pen is really solid (at least by the numbers I read), and where are they today? Does it matter how good your starters are if they are only going to go 4 - 6 innings a start? The pen wins or loses too high of a percentage of games today to go cheap on it. As the song goes, thunder's just the noise, boys, lighting does the work. Our starting rotation might have it's share of thunder, but we need to catch a little more lightning in our bullpen. Then maybe you all won't have to listen to me go on about the overuse of the bullpen. 😉

Agree with the sentiment of the post. Not sure if larger payroll invested in the pen is the answer but a larger investment in talent is important.

It's Martha and the Vandelas in the bullpen. You can't hide anyone.

Doctor Wu · June 21, 2024

9 hours ago, Rosterman said:

Waiting for The Return of Dobnak - long relief!

That would be a bit bizarre, but I would still say ... "go for it".

Doctor Wu · June 21, 2024

8 hours ago, Vanimal46 said:

No. He is this year’s Jharel Cotton.

Cotton was much, much better.

jmlease1 · June 21, 2024

The Twins competitiveness has a challenging impact on the bullpen: we're rarely blowing people out or getting blown out, which means that our top bullpen arms are often getting used and can leave us in a position where the lower guys on the list get asked to fill a role they're not really intended to handle. The top of the 'pen is pretty strong with Duran, Jax, and Alcala and when Stewart gets back they're in great shape from the right side late in games. The left side is a little more challenging with Thielbar in a funk and Okert struggling to get RH out, because we're no longer in a world where you can carry a LOOGY. Okert is death to lefties, but as soon as he comes in you have to expect the PH. Hopefully Funderburk can help.

Tough beat making the big comeback and then falling short. Great to see Miranda playing so well, and Santana's revival has been impressive.

Was surprised to see Jackson get recalled in the first place, glad to see him demoted again. Hopefully this experiment is over: Jackson can't get LH out at all has been just another guy against RH and he's not designed to be a mop-up guy either. He's got no future here and going to that well again and again seems like a waste. Let him fling sliders at AAA hitters.

Disappointed to see Royce get thrown out at 3rd; yes, you want to advance a base but you simply can't get thrown out there. Have to wonder if that's a situation where he hasn't really internalized that's he's not as fast as he used to be.

mikelink45 · June 21, 2024

Before the season we speculated about having potentially the best BP - we don't. Jackson was a star acquisition until he actually pitched. Okert is not looking good, Thielbar is far from the pitcher we have had. It is time to fix the pen again.

2wins87 · June 21, 2024

14 hours ago, bean5302 said:

Look, it's important to rest guys to prevent them from wearing down... except sometimes Baldelli's macro is broken and keeps repeating the same bullpen arms. LOL

Did you want Baldelli to go to Thielbar in a tie game?

Gotta be clear that the bullpen's woes are 90% on the front office.

The decision to spot start Varland to rest the starters made sense, but given it was all planned out in advance, the fact that the FO really wanted Jackson back on the roster afterwards is strange.

Combined with Thielbar's struggles, the last two spots in the bullpen have been basically unusable for the last week. Okert is also hard to use because he ends up facing a bunch of righties, and while his ERA looks fine has he actually looked like a playoff caliber reliever at any point this season?

Honestly the revolving door of AAA arms at the back of the bullpen that has happened in past seasons would probably be better. At least make it harder for teams to scout and gameplan.

2wins87 · June 21, 2024

14 hours ago, bean5302 said:

Look, it's important to rest guys to prevent them from wearing down... except sometimes Baldelli's macro is broken and keeps repeating the same bullpen arms. LOL

Did you want Baldelli to go to Thielbar in a tie game?

Gotta be clear that the bullpen's woes are 90% on the front office.

The decision to spot start Varland to rest the starters made sense, but given it was all planned out in advance, the fact that the FO really wanted Jackson back on the roster afterwards is strange.

Combined with Thielbar's struggles, the last two spots in the bullpen have been basically unusable for the last week. Okert is also hard to use because he ends up facing a bunch of righties, and while his ERA looks fine has he actually looked like a playoff caliber reliever at any point this season?

Honestly the revolving door of AAA arms at the back of the bullpen that has happened in past seasons would probably be better. At least make it harder for teams to scout and gameplan.

Karbo · June 21, 2024

Does anyone remember how this was supposed to be one of if not the best pen in the league? I didn't drink that kool-aid and looks like I was right. Duran, Jax, Alcala, and Staumont just can't pitch everyday. Rumor has it they are re-calling Funderburk, but maybe they should also get Varland up as a reliever. Maybe he wants to keep starting, but the team needs him more in the pen at this time!

Old Crow · June 21, 2024

12 hours ago, mnfireman said:

Baldelli's "Get-away day" line-ups are infamous.....but so we're Gardy's.

T. K.s too??

DJL44 · June 21, 2024

7 hours ago, bean5302 said:

You are not allowed to question Vazquez's utter dominance defensively. He is simply the greatest defensive catcher in the history of the world. So great it doesn't matter he's the worst hitter in MLB.

Please note, the intangibles which cannot be calculated or quantified or which have already been statistically eliminated from calculable differing value between players such as "game calling" are the reason Vazquez is an elite catcher.

Actually, the metrics show Vazquez as one of the top defensive catchers in baseball, good enough to keep him around replacement level despite his lousy bat.

Riverbrian · June 21, 2024

25 minutes ago, 2wins87 said:

Honestly the revolving door of AAA arms at the back of the bullpen that has happened in past seasons would probably be better.

Last Year a total of 24 pitchers pitched in relief for the Twins. Two were position players (Luplow and Castro) and 4 were excess starters (Kuechel, Paddack, Maeda and SWR). So Let's call it 18 relief pitchers utilized in 2023.

This Year... 65 games in... have utilized 19 pitchers in relief. One Position Player (Castro) and one excess starter (Varland).

So Let's call it 17 relief pitchers... 65 games into the season. I'd say the revolving door is still revolving.

In Comparison to last year.

2024 -- The Twins bullpen ERA is currently 3.72 Ranked 14th in MLB

2023 -- The Twins bullpen ERA was 3.95 Ranked 15th in MLB

Here are some other unrelated bullpen numbers just for everyone's enjoyment with no conclusion by me drawn from any of these numbers.

The Top Bullpen in baseball this year belongs to Cleveland and it isn't really close.

#1 - Cleveland 2.36

#2 - LA Dodgers 3.15

#14 - Minnesota 3.72

Cleveland has only used 12 pitchers in relief this year.

Cleveland utilizes the pen 3.76 Innings per game. The Dodgers utilize the pen 3.75 Innings per game. Minnesota utilizes the pen 3.52 Innings per game.

The Milwaukee Brewers (#4 Best Bullpen ERA) utilize the pen more than any other team at 4.11 Innings Per Game. The Mariners (16th Best Bullpen ERA) utilize the pen less than any other team at 2.97 innings per game.

If the season ended today the following teams are in the playoffs (Bullpen ERA Rank)(Starter ERA Rank)(Team OPS Rank).

#1 - Yankees (10)(2)(3)

#2 - Guardians (1)(19)(11)

#3 - Mariners (16)(4)(23)

#4 - Orioles (3)(3)(2)

#5 - Royals (20)(9)(14)

#6 - Twins (14)(25)(7)

#1 - Phillies (7)(1)(4)

#2 - Dodgers (2)(8)(1)

#3 - Brewers (4)(16)(8)

#4 - Braves (5)(12)(12)

#5 - Cards (13)(18)(19)

#6 - Padres (17)(17)(10)

I'm not claiming that bullpen is the key to winning baseball games but the teams that are winning games sure seem to rank high and feel pretty comfortable at the moment.

The 5 teams that are currently in the playoffs that do not rank high in the bullpen are:

Mariners: Getting by with starting pitching alone. If they suffer some injuries in the rotation they are going to need Rodriquez, Polanco and the rest of the offense to do a 180 and go Kepler in the 2nd Half.

Royals: Same thing as the Mariners. If they suffer some starting pitching injuries. The MJ Melendez types will need to turn it around to keep them a float. Can Lugo keep Lugoing even if he stays healthy?

Twins: Offense is carrying them and we (Twinsdaily faithful) largely don't like the offense as it stands.

Cards and Padres: They are in the playoffs at the moment by default. The Cardinals have a .500 winning percentage and the Padres are below .500 -- Both teams are average across the board. There are 8 teams nipping at their ankles. Of those 8 teams... the Pirates have been highly ranked in the Starters department and the Reds are highly ranked in the Bullpen department. Pirates rank 28th in OPS and the Reds rank 21st in OPS.

tony&rodney · June 21, 2024

FWIW, even if Kepler goes on the IL, Brooks Lee may get a call before Wallner. Wallner is crushing his pitches but still looks lost with those pitchers who know where the holes are for the big guy. MLB pitchers don't miss their spots nearly as often. Lee, meanwhile, is working over pitchers wherever the ball is thrown. It will be interesting to see who is the next position player suiting up for the Twins.

LambchoP · June 21, 2024

Rocco is infuriating. Resting two of your hottest hitters on the same day, not only playing, but STARTING guys out of position. Putting Jackson or Theilbar into a tie game in the late innings? Did we even want to win today? Also, not even trying to hold runners looked pathetic. That one on Jackson where they stole third....looked like Jackson completely forgot there was even a runner out there! Glad he's gone, but Theilbar needs to be next. There's better options available. Hope we get Stewart, Topa and Canterino back sometime...

JD-TWINS · June 21, 2024

13 hours ago, Parfigliano said:

I understand resting players. I dont understand resting Lewis and Correa on the same day.

Anybody hear what the situation is with Kepler?

Lewis at DH?

JD-TWINS · June 21, 2024

1 hour ago, Karbo said:

Does anyone remember how this was supposed to be one of if not the best pen in the league? I didn't drink that kool-aid and looks like I was right. Duran, Jax, Alcala, and Staumont just can't pitch everyday. Rumor has it they are re-calling Funderburk, but maybe they should also get Varland up as a reliever. Maybe he wants to keep starting, but the team needs him more in the pen at this time!

A reasonable Topa & then Stewart ……..any upside at all with Thielbar……..that’s a good Pen.

Is Winder available anytime in next month?

Varland won’t got to Pen until September ……needed as starter depth until then. I don’t see him being able to handle going back & forth “as needed” so stability as a starter is the deal.

Funderburk & Ronny H. should be able to help in short-term.

JD-TWINS · June 21, 2024

28 minutes ago, LambchoP said:

Rocco is infuriating. Resting two of your hottest hitters on the same day, not only playing, but STARTING guys out of position. Putting Jackson or Theilbar into a tie game in the late innings? Did we even want to win today? Also, not even trying to hold runners looked pathetic. That one on Jackson where they stole third....looked like Jackson completely forgot there was even a runner out there! Glad he's gone, but Theilbar needs to be next. There's better options available. Hope we get Stewart, Topa and Canterino back sometime...

Is Canterino even playing catch yet?

Funderburk & Ronny to the rescue soon.😉

JD-TWINS · June 21, 2024

45 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

Last Year a total of 24 pitchers pitched in relief for the Twins. Two were position players (Luplow and Castro) and 4 were excess starters (Kuechel, Paddack, Maeda and SWR). So Let's call it 18 relief pitchers utilized in 2023.

This Year... 65 games in... have utilized 19 pitchers in relief. One Position Player (Castro) and one excess starter (Varland).

So Let's call it 17 relief pitchers... 65 games into the season. I'd say the revolving door is still revolving.

In Comparison to last year.

2024 -- The Twins bullpen ERA is currently 3.72 Ranked 14th in MLB

2023 -- The Twins bullpen ERA was 3.95 Ranked 15th in MLB

Here are some other unrelated bullpen numbers just for everyone's enjoyment with no conclusion by me drawn from any of these numbers.

The Top Bullpen in baseball this year belongs to Cleveland and it isn't really close.

#1 - Cleveland 2.36

#2 - LA Dodgers 3.15

#14 - Minnesota 3.72

Cleveland has only used 12 pitchers in relief this year.

Cleveland utilizes the pen 3.76 Innings per game. The Dodgers utilize the pen 3.75 Innings per game. Minnesota utilizes the pen 3.52 Innings per game.

The Milwaukee Brewers (#4 Best Bullpen ERA) utilize the pen more than any other team at 4.11 Innings Per Game. The Mariners (16th Best Bullpen ERA) utilize the pen less than any other team at 2.97 innings per game.

If the season ended today the following teams are in the playoffs (Bullpen ERA Rank)(Starter ERA Rank)(Team OPS Rank).

#1 - Yankees (10)(2)(3)

#2 - Guardians (1)(19)(11)

#3 - Mariners (16)(4)(23)

#4 - Orioles (3)(3)(2)

#5 - Royals (20)(9)(14)

#6 - Twins (14)(25)(7)

#1 - Phillies (7)(1)(4)

#2 - Dodgers (2)(8)(1)

#3 - Brewers (4)(16)(8)

#4 - Braves (5)(12)(12)

#5 - Cards (13)(18)(19)

#6 - Padres (17)(17)(10)

I'm not claiming that bullpen is the key to winning baseball games but the teams that are winning games sure seem to rank high and feel pretty comfortable at the moment.

The 5 teams that are currently in the playoffs that do not rank high in the bullpen are:

Mariners: Getting by with starting pitching alone. If they suffer some injuries in the rotation they are going to need Rodriquez, Polanco and the rest of the offense to do a 180 and go Kepler in the 2nd Half.

Royals: Same thing as the Mariners. If they suffer some starting pitching injuries. The MJ Melendez types will need to turn it around to keep them a float. Can Lugo keep Lugoing even if he stays healthy?

Twins: Offense is carrying them and we (Twinsdaily faithful) largely don't like the offense as it stands.

Cards and Padres: They are in the playoffs at the moment by default. The Cardinals have a .500 winning percentage and the Padres are below .500 -- Both teams are average across the board. There are 8 teams nipping at their ankles. Of those 8 teams... the Pirates have been highly ranked in the Starters department and the Reds are highly ranked in the Bullpen department. Pirates rank 28th in OPS and the Reds rank 21st in OPS.

TWINS:

4th (of the 6 A.L. playoff teams) in Pen ERA

3rd (of the 6 A.L. playoff teams) in OPS

Varland - Lopez - Paddack are skewing this but all teams have outliers as well.

Seems the Starter ERA is the primary concern. PEN’s issues are principally, health to date……having to pitch guys that won’t be around by mid-July.

JD-TWINS · June 21, 2024

Farmer finally at .200 BA with .307 OBP

Margot to .225 BA with .302 OBP

Santana to .247 BA with .327 OBP …..Leads team in HR & RBI ……with endless availability!

How about a little bit of recognition for these 3 that absolutely “had to be DFAed” on May 10th & after……..no mention of positives, only complaints.

MABB1959 · June 21, 2024

Still 7-3 for the last 10. BUT they need to stop the bleeding now. Great winning streaks but they seem to follow up with sad losing streak. The rest of June looks easy and if they don't cash in, it will be interesting to see the lineups in July. I also hate the throwaway games. Sure rest the best player and there may not be baseball for us in October.

chpettit19 · June 21, 2024

14 hours ago, Linus said:

I have no info whatsoever but I’m saying right now put Max on the IL. He’s famous for making day to day turn into a week. Perfect chance to see if Wallner is ready.

Wallner is 1 for his last 11 with 7 Ks since they got back from Louisville. He's not ready. But I do agree they can't do the "day to day" dance with Kepler this year. Either IL him or play him.

Linus · June 21, 2024

Just now, chpettit19 said:

Wallner is 1 for his last 11 with 7 Ks since the got back from Louisville. He's not ready.

Ouch. According to the paper this morning Max is day to day so they aren’t making a move. Will be interesting to see how long he is out.

stringer bell · June 21, 2024

Bullpens are fragile. They can fall apart with one injury or ineffective key piece. I thought the Twins did a decent job of getting bullpen depth on the cheap over the winter, but the depth went sideways before the season even started with the injuries to Durán, Topa and Thielbar. So far, the most positive story is that Alcalá has been very good and the second best is that Staumont could assume a high-leverage role (great so far in limited sample size and mostly low leverage). The disappointments have been Thielbar, Jackson, and the injury to Topa. I'm neutral on Sands and Okert--they shouldn't be back-end guys, but everyone gets a chance at some point.

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Rays 7, Twins 6: Miranda Blast Sends it to Extras, But Minnesota Comes up Short

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How many games will the Minnesota Twins win in 2026?