Article: Pelfrey Excited about Meyer, Twins Future

[Jim H]

Jim, I do believe people are more effective, yes. And, we institute measures to show that. And we assess what is working and not in changing things......

 

My question has always been, what measure for what type of player, do we think leadership matters at all? Because signing a guy that is not as talented, but is better for the culture, is a risky endeavor. You should have measures/something that shows why outcomes are worse/better based on both competency and cultural fit. As a matter of fact, I'm trying to get a competent contractor off my project, because he does not fit the culture. But, I have measures that show that effect. that's what I'm curious about.....

 

how do we think leadership/winner manifests itself in others, and how would we know?

 

It is likely the Twins know more than we ever will about culture and fit......but as fans, how do we judge that? That's an interesting conversation to me.

 

Also, what is the delta you are willing to tolerate? A great culture fit/mediocre player vs a mediocre culture fit/great player. Where do you draw the lines? those are kind of interesting....but since we have so little experience in their culture, it probably won't tell us much that is real.

 

So you are trying to fire or at least remove a competent contractor because he doesn't fit your culture? I have a hard time understanding what this even means. If he is good at his job, does he somehow make others worse at theirs? How do you measure that? Now if he is an ass, well I understand that, and an ass can certainly make others worse at their jobs. But you don't seem to be saying that.

 

I guess if we are applying this to baseball, well I would rather spend time around good guys than not so good guys. On the other hand I really prefer to work with people who are good at what they do and continue to work to make themselves better. I expect that is true in baseball as well.

[Thrylos]

This helps with understanding why he was re-signed. There has to be the hope that by 2015 he is not going to be in the starting rotation (Nolasco, Hughes, Gibson, Meyer, May).

 

2015 is a long way away and things will happen by then. Having too much SP (and good SP) is an excellent place to be, because you can actually fill needs in other places of your team with it. I can see someone like May or Gibson being the centerpiece of a trade for a MLB-ready good young SS, for example...

 

Have always been a Perlfrey fan, since his Mets' years for all he brings on the table and not only on the mound... And he just turned 30 couple weeks ago, so there is a lot left in him.

[Thrylos]

I always used to ask this.....which players would play worse if Cuddeyer was not on the roster? I mean, if his leadership mattered, who did it matter to? I agree, culture matters. I firmly believe that. I actively work to change my company's culture through a formal effort we have going on. But if it doesn't literally make other players better, should it matter to fans?

 

Cuddyer and Pelfrey are totally different people in the way they are interacting with the public and within the clubhouse. Cuddyer was a mouthpiece, Pelfrey is a clubhouse guy. Pelfrey would have not been all smiles on the TV saying "we'll get them next year" moments after the Twins lost game 163 in Chicago (and they lost that game in part because Cuddyer did not slide to break the play at the plate.)

 

Not fair to Pelfrey to compare those 2.

[Thrylos]

Kudos to Terry Ryan who has taken full responsibility for this mess, as the other bigger names associated with the Twins don't appear willing or capable of doing that. .

 

a. How exactly did Terry Ryan take "full responsibility for this mess"? Last I remember, 2012 was because of Jerry and Stelly and the luck of someone with catching background on the coaching staff and 2013 was because they did not have an infield and base running coach. Because those are the only changes he made.

 

b. How do you know, that those "bigger names" (I assume you mean Pohlad) did not give him an ultimatum to spend money to win for 2014, or else? His 180 degree change in his philosophy and what he says even this season (e.g. you cannot build a winner with FAs) versus what he did (get a bunch of FAs) is indicative that something is going on here...

[Willihammer]

Pelfrey also has some decent upside IMO....

 

I liked the signing too, on the merits of Pelfrey's 2nd half.

 

I don't care if he brings a beret or a do-rag to the clubhouse culture.

[dgwills]

I always used to ask this.....which players would play worse if Cuddeyer was not on the roster? I mean, if his leadership mattered, who did it matter to? I agree, culture matters. I firmly believe that. I actively work to change my company's culture through a formal effort we have going on. But if it doesn't literally make other players better, should it matter to fans?

 

For me it's not really a question of leadership, but I really prefer to root for good people. When I find out a player I've been rooting for is a d-bag or a violent criminal, it makes me furious. That's why I like to see these kind of articles . I'm also happy to hear that Buxton and Meyer are quality people since they will be important to the Twins. I'm a little worried about some of the things I've read about Kohl Stewart and Eddie Rosario. They are still very young though.

[zchrz]

I was very against bringing Pelfry back and still don't have real high hopes for it going that well, this was a side to it I had never considered however. There are not many guys with Meyer's size that succeed and having one that has carved out a decent major league career on the roster can only help that development. Added bonus he seems like he is really into the organization and willing to do the extra things to help it grow. I am willing to drink this kool aid and take a rosier view towards big Pelf, though I promise nothing after I have to watch him pitch (or should I say stand around on the mound and lick his fingers) again.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

a. How exactly did Terry Ryan take "full responsibility for this mess"? Last I remember, 2012 was because of Jerry and Stelly and the luck of someone with catching background on the coaching staff and 2013 was because they did not have an infield and base running coach. Because those are the only changes he made.

 

b. How do you know, that those "bigger names" (I assume you mean Pohlad) did not give him an ultimatum to spend money to win for 2014, or else? His 180 degree change in his philosophy and what he says even this season (e.g. you cannot build a winner with FAs) versus what he did (get a bunch of FAs) is indicative that something is going on here...

 

I did not mean Pohlad, actually. If Jim Pohlad issued a win-or-else ultimatum to Ryan, then good. It would hurt to see Ryan go, though, as he deserves credit for putting together those good teams and by all accounts he's a stand up guy. I actually do have faith that the team he is putting together can win in a couple of years.

 

That said, many people on these boards would be curious to know more about his 180 degree reversal on free agents. I haven't seen any of our beat writers press for an answer yet, so until someone does we are left to speculate.

[jimbo92107]

I love Mike Pelfrey's approach to pitching. It's exactly the way you want kids to learn it. His poise and economical delivery from the set is just about ideal. Other pitchers may have a hotter heater and a little more bend in their curve, but Pelfrey knows how to pitch.

[Jim Crikket]

how do we think leadership/winner manifests itself in others, and how would we know?

 

It is likely the Twins know more than we ever will about culture and fit......but as fans, how do we judge that? That's an interesting conversation to me.

 

Also, what is the delta you are willing to tolerate? A great culture fit/mediocre player vs a mediocre culture fit/great player. Where do you draw the lines? those are kind of interesting....but since we have so little experience in their culture, it probably won't tell us much that is real.

 

We can't "know" much for certain, unless/until the local beat reporters start to let hints seep in to their reporting. Even then, you're right that it's not likely we'll know much about the clubhouse culture, good or bad.

 

And as I wrote earlier, the "fits with our culture" thing is not the most important factor in signing a guy. But, just hypothetically, if TR was trying to decide between signing Pelfrey and another veteran, back of the rotation, pitcher, knowing that Pelfrey has been a guy the young pitchers gravitate to and he fits well in your clubhouse is certainly a fair reason to bring him back rather than sign the other guy who you just don't know.

 

I think you originally asked whether it should matter to us as fans, since we can't really know much about the culture. I think it's appropriate to matter to us, so long as we don't pretend we know for sure how much of a factor it is with any particular player. At the very least, I think we should accept that it is a consideration. And it's also fair to be critical if it starts to look like it's too much of a consideration and the GM starts filling the roster with great guys who throw 85 mph fastballs or can't hit their weight.

[tobi0040]

I liked the signing too, on the merits of Pelfrey's 2nd half.

 

I don't care if he brings a beret or a do-rag to the clubhouse culture.

 

Compare Pelfreys contract and stats to Bruce Chen, who just signed a one year deal at $4.25M, with a mutual option at $5.5M and a $1M buyout.

 

Chen and Pelfrey have essentially the same career ERA. Chen's ERA over the last four years:

 

4.17, 3.77, 5.07, and 3.27.

[Don't Feed the Greed Guy]

Regarding culture:

 

Robert Putnam's book "Bowling Alone: The Collapse and Revival of American Community" is an interesting study in social capital, defined as a form of social networks: "whereas physical capital refers to physical objects and human capital refers to the properties of individuals, social capital refers to connections among individuals – social networks and the norms of reciprocity and trustworthiness that arise from them."

 

A major league clubhouse, dugout, and playing field are fascinating places to study social capital. The popularity of Roger Kahn's "The Boys of Summer" and "October Men: Reggie Jackson, George Steinbrenner, Billy Martin, and the Yankees Fantastic Finish in 1978" are two lyrical examinations of the bonds and bridges that develop--or are torn down--when a group of men form a baseball team.

 

Putnam identifies "bridging" and "bonding" social capital as two distinct types of human relationships. Bonding capital occurs among people of similar religious, cultural, or social groups. So, when I went to the Midwinter Meltdown, I met a lot of white, baseball loving guys in their twenties and thirties. At 47 I felt a little old...

 

Bridging social capital is discovered when a veteran pitcher befriends a younger pitcher. It's also a form of bonding, since Pelfrey and Meyer have so much in common as starting pitchers with high talent.

 

Think, for instance of Pedro Florimon and Miguel Sano on the left side of the infield. Both are from the Dominican Republic. Florimon has lateral range, whereas Sano has soft hands and a cannon arm (provided that ulnar collateral ligament holds up), but his size may limit his side-to-side mobility. Florimon and Sano might develop a nice bond, aided by Dominican culture, and a reciprocal relationship in the field.

 

The same could be said for Venezuelans Oswaldo Arcia and Eduardo Escobar, or Brian Dozier and Byron Buxton who hail from the Deep South, while Buxton and Hicks are former first round drafted outfielders who happen to be African American.

 

Mauer, Theilbar, and Perkins talk Minnesotan, don'tcha know...

 

It's an interesting team, with some fascinating aspects of bonding and bridging social capital built into an emerging roster. What does that mean? Maybe not that much, but it's interesting to speculate--or wistfully imagine--that guys like Pelfrey might be bridge builders as this team takes shape in the coming months.

[Jim H]

Baseball teams can be very interesting because I too believe that team chemistry, or whatever you want to call it, can contribute to winning. This talk about culture is a little different than what a baseball clubhouse is likely to be. Many corporations try to create their own "cultures" which tend to exclude people, no matter how competent, who don't "fit" the culture. I know some people who were let go or downsized by one the big employers here in Fargo. Some were close to brilliant in their field. I know one who became a contractor like what Mike had described in an above post.

 

One of the problems I have with these kind of cultures is that it is a sort of prejudice that I am pretty uncomfortable with. When you start firing people who are good at their jobs, merely because they don't "fit" quite well enough with a particular group, well that doesn't seem quite right to me. That you have "measures" that let you justify it, almost makes it worse.

 

Now, I don't believe baseball organizations operate that way. Baseball is so competitve that performance tends to be the overriding factor. Clearly, if you have 2 individuals whose performances are likely to be very close, management is going lean toward the individual who brings certain intangibles to the mix such as leadership, ability to mentor, etc. Trying to establish some sort of "culture" like some corportations do what likely be impossible given the everchanging nature of a clubhouse.

 

Nevertheless, most teams do try to establish something like the "Twins Way" which is in part, a way to bring people from widely disparate backrounds together to work toward a common goal. How important the "Twins Way" is, well, that is open to debate. Clearly, talent is an awfully big factor here. Doing things the Twins Way won't help much if the players aren't talented enough.

[Thrylos]

Compare Pelfreys contract and stats to Bruce Chen, who just signed a one year deal at $4.25M, with a mutual option at $5.5M and a $1M buyout.

 

Chen and Pelfrey have essentially the same career ERA. Chen's ERA over the last four years:

 

4.17, 3.77, 5.07, and 3.27.

 

Pelfrey just turned 30 and has a 94-95 mph FB, Chen is around 37 and spots a 86 mph fastball.

 

This is like saying that the Twins should go after Barry Zito (who is still a FA btw and had better FIP & xFIP than Chen and is a year younger) because he would only likely cost a MiLB contract

[PopRiveter]

Thrylos, you made a number of points in this thread that I applaud, but I'll never understand your disdain for Michael Cuddyer. Every mention of his name seems to rub you wrong.

I sure wouldn't have complained about having his 2013 production in right field over Parmelee's. I guess you got your wish on that one.

But more to the point, having your "mentor-type" SP be a 30 yr old with a sturdy track record and 90-94 velocity is a win in my book. The clubhouse chemistry angle is nice, but it's not like he's earned this job on his personality alone.

[tobi0040]

Pelfrey just turned 30 and has a 94-95 mph FB, Chen is around 37 and spots a 86 mph fastball.

 

This is like saying that the Twins should go after Barry Zito (who is still a FA btw and had better FIP & xFIP than Chen and is a year younger) because he would only likely cost a MiLB contract

 

So we are going with fastball velocity over actual results? That 94 mph fastball has gotten Pelfrey a 4.48 era over 1,048 innings. That 86 mph fastball got Chen a 4.49 era. Chen's K rate per nine is 6.7 compared to Pelfreys 5.2. Over the last full four years they have pitched, Chen has a 4.20 era compared to Pelfreys 4.61.

 

Maybe a lack of secondary offerings for Pelfrey offsets the velocity and mixing pitches has worked well for Chen? We have a lot of different stats available, but we should always look at actual results as well, especially when you have two established guys with north of 1k innings.

 

My original point is the second year and annual amount was high given comparable guys like Chen who signed for fewer dollars and years.

[bird]

Cuddyer and Pelfrey are totally different people in the way they are interacting with the public and within the clubhouse. Cuddyer was a mouthpiece, Pelfrey is a clubhouse guy. Pelfrey would have not been all smiles on the TV saying "we'll get them next year" moments after the Twins lost game 163 in Chicago (and they lost that game in part because Cuddyer did not slide to break the play at the plate.)

 

Not fair to Pelfrey to compare those 2.

 

Actually, my dear friend thrylos, what's unfair is for you to characterize Cuddyer in the way you have. You have been hugely critical of Cuddyer for years, haven't you? Both his personality and his proficiency as a ballplayer.

 

Answer this question: what evidence can you give us that Cuddyer is not "a clubhouse guy" in the same vein as Pelfry?

 

I'm callin' bias.

[glunn]

Moderator note -- let's be careful here. It's getting a little too personal.

[oldguy10]

There has been much written over the last few years that Cuddyer is very self-serving and not the great clubhouse influence that he appears to be. This is a somewhat offensive statement I realize and if the moderators decide to delete it I am fine with that, just wanted to mention something about Cuddyer's attitude that has been purported over the years and that I have read previously. I do not know how else to put this delicate situation

[lee_the_twins_fan]

I think Cuddyer has grown as a person since he left the Twins. I think he has grown as a player, into even more of a clubhouse leader.

 

I wish him only the best.

[stringer bell]

OK, if this thread is considered hijacked, so be it. I never met the man, but I have always loved Cuddy's attitude and appreciated his effort. There may have been whispers that Cuddy loves the camera etc., but he's always given maximum effort on the field and never complained where he was in the lineup or in the field. I've seen lots of compliments about how he's played the game and dealt with younger players. No one is going to be loved by everyone in the clubhouse, but I think Cuddyer is a great example of how a MLB player should go about his business.

[lee_the_twins_fan]

I agree

[Seth Stohs]

Cuddyer was (and is) about as classy an individual as there is in baseball. Question the value of leadership in the clubhouse. He got credit because he was willing to step up and talk to the media even when things got bad. Nothing wrong with that. But, having talked to some of the guys that were on the teams, Cuddyer is a tremendous person in the clubhouse.

[tobi0040]

Cuddyer was (and is) about as classy an individual as there is in baseball. Question the value of leadership in the clubhouse. He got credit because he was willing to step up and talk to the media even when things got bad. Nothing wrong with that. But, having talked to some of the guys that were on the teams, Cuddyer is a tremendous person in the clubhouse.

 

It is not a surprise to me that people within the clubhouse would say he is a good guy. In the clubhouse he seemed well respected and consistently moved around in the field when his team needed him to. From 2B, 3B, LF, RH, then to 1B. That is not a prima-donna type.

 

All I ever heard about Cuddy was how involved he was in the community too. I believe he won a Twins charity award for all the work he and his wife did and he was on the Twins community fund board of directors.

[bird]

Moderator note -- let's be careful here. It's getting a little too personal.

 

And please also be careful as a moderator. The only comment I see in this thread that was "too personal" was an attack on the character of someone who is not here to defend himself, Cuddyer.

 

Can anyone give us even anecdotal evidence that Cuddyer was not respected, even admired, by his teammates? Any "whispers" that Cuddyer was self-serving have come from right here, in my opinion, and from one person in particular. Cuddyer may be comfortable in front of the camera, and the media gravitates towards guys like him. Same with Puckett and now Dozier.

 

I'd encourage the moderators to treat unfounded assaults against a person's character with the same vigilance regardless of whether the victim is a commenter or a celebrity who is not present. It is not alright to do that just because he/she is a public figure.

[bird]

There has been much written over the last few years that Cuddyer is very self-serving and not the great clubhouse influence that he appears to be. This is a somewhat offensive statement I realize and if the moderators decide to delete it I am fine with that, just wanted to mention something about Cuddyer's attitude that has been purported over the years and that I have read previously. I do not know how else to put this delicate situation

 

Sorry, I don't buy this at all, oldguy. Can you please name one place, other than right here, that you've read anything that even hinted that he was self-serving and less than a positive clubhouse guy? Are you sure that the "much has been written" isn't all from this forum?

[JB_Iowa]

There may have been whispers that Cuddy loves the camera etc.,

 

My favorite is that he loves being BEHIND the camera. I love looking through his photo album on flickr:

[Jim Crikket]

Putnam identifies "bridging" and "bonding" social capital as two distinct types of human relationships. Bonding capital occurs among people of similar religious' date=' cultural, or social groups. So, when I went to the Midwinter Meltdown, I met a lot of white, baseball loving guys in their twenties and thirties. At 47 I felt a little old... [/quote']

 

At 57, I feel a little older at those functions. Then again, sometimes spending time with so many younger fans makes me feel younger, too. (At least for one evening.)

 

I do think maybe it's time for TwinsDaily to start offering a "senior discount" to the events, so we get a few more of us old farts in the room!

 

Yes, I know, I hijacked the hijacked thread. My bad.

[snepp]

And please also be careful as a moderator.

 

I'd encourage the moderators...

 

 

I'd encourage you to please review the Comments Policy, specifically the section about the discussion of moderator actions where they don't belong.

 

http://www.twinsdaily.com/showthread.php/8837-Twins-Daily-Comment-Policy-last-revision-September-2013?p=164885&viewfull=1#post164885

 

There is a place to discuss the moderation of the forum, but it's not in the middle of a baseball thread.

 

http://www.twinsdaily.com/forumdisplay.php/8-Questions-About-Twins-Daily