Vikes at Seattle (the Brosmer game)

[Vanimal46]

3 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

Won’t be long before the trade JJ talks heat up.

Makes me sad, but trading away star WRs is a Vikings tradition. 

[Mike Sixel]

8 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

Won’t be long before the trade JJ talks heat up.

It's a tougher call than I thought. Next year is likely a lost year. Not sure how 2027 is better either! If there is no QB in the next draft, who is the QB in '27? At that point....you've wasted 3 years of Jefferson (counting this year). I'd hate that....I'd hate trading him....I'd consider trading him, but hate it. 

[The Great Hambino]

8 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

It's a tougher call than I thought. Next year is likely a lost year. Not sure how 2027 is better either! If there is no QB in the next draft, who is the QB in '27? At that point....you've wasted 3 years of Jefferson (counting this year). I'd hate that....I'd hate trading him....I'd consider trading him, but hate it. 

Is it even mathematically feasible to trade him even if they wanted to?  There's roughly $47MM or so of unamortized signing/option bonuses still remaining after this year.  My understanding (which isn't complete on this, so perhaps there's some nuance I'm missing) is that all hits if they trade him.  They're already well over next year's cap.  I'm sure there's technically a way to make it work, but we're in to-the-studs rebuild territory if it comes to that.

I think after next season a trade becomes a lot more feasible.  I hope they can figure out something better by then.

[Mike Sixel]

5 minutes ago, The Great Hambino said:

Is it even mathematically feasible to trade him even if they wanted to?  There's roughly $47MM or so of unamortized signing/option bonuses still remaining after this year.  My understanding (which isn't complete on this, so perhaps there's some nuance I'm missing) is that all hits if they trade him.  They're already well over next year's cap.  I'm sure there's technically a way to make it work, but we're in to-the-studs rebuild territory if it comes to that.

I think after next season a trade becomes a lot more feasible.  I hope they can figure out something better by then.

Yes, the cap hit will likely stop any deal this off season....but I'm guessing Jefferson asks for a trade if they don't deal for a good veteran (probably not publicly). 

[gunnarthor]

6 minutes ago, The Great Hambino said:

Is it even mathematically feasible to trade him even if they wanted to?  There's roughly $47MM or so of unamortized signing/option bonuses still remaining after this year.  My understanding (which isn't complete on this, so perhaps there's some nuance I'm missing) is that all hits if they trade him.  They're already well over next year's cap.  I'm sure there's technically a way to make it work, but we're in to-the-studs rebuild territory if it comes to that.

I think after next season a trade becomes a lot more feasible.  I hope they can figure out something better by then.

Yep, nearly a 50m cap hit if they trade him. But, as Nick alluded to elsewhere in this thread, if the issue is getting Jefferson his yards, they can bring back Wentz or sign someone like Mariota. That's a different issue than finding the franchise QB. 

[nicksaviking]

3 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Yes, the cap hit will likely stop any deal this off season....but I'm guessing Jefferson asks for a trade if they don't deal for a good veteran (probably not publicly). 

But why is Justin Jefferson the exception? Star wide receivers have down years due to bad QB play all the time, and they don't tend to get traded because of it.  

In Wentz's five starts, Jefferson averaged 95 yards on 10 targets with 7 catches per game. And the team basically played like a .500 club. 

That's not acceptable to me, but even a below average QB like Wentz puts Jefferson's numbers back on track and makes this team forgettably average.

[Mike Sixel]

5 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

But why is Justin Jefferson the exception? Star wide receivers have down years due to bad QB play all the time, and they don't tend to get traded because of it.  

In Wentz's five starts, Jefferson averaged 95 yards on 10 targets with 7 catches per game. And the team basically played like a .500 club. 

That's not acceptable to me, but even a below average QB like Wentz puts Jefferson's numbers back on track and makes this team forgettably average.

All decent points, and maybe he views the team and his future differently than I do.....

 

[The Great Hambino]

3 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

But why is Justin Jefferson the exception? Star wide receivers have down years due to bad QB play all the time, and they don't tend to get traded because of it.  

In Wentz's five starts, Jefferson averaged 95 yards on 10 targets with 7 catches per game. And the team basically played like a .500 club. 

That's not acceptable to me, but even a below average QB like Wentz puts Jefferson's numbers back on track and makes this team forgettably average.

I get what you're saying and agree that trade rumors would go away if something resembling competent QB play returns to the team, but:

1. There's bad QB play, there's utterly atrocious QB play ... and beneath that, there's what McCarthy has put on tape thus far.  There's levels to this, and McCarthy is currently at the bottom level

2. The scenario where he might be looking for a trade is one where no outside reinforcement is brought in to stabilize the QB position.  In other words, the Vikings would be doubling down on that level of QB play.  If that happens (I don't think it will), then I could see Jefferson looking for an out

[nicksaviking]

1 minute ago, The Great Hambino said:

I get what you're saying and agree that trade rumors would go away if something resembling competent QB play returns to the team, but:

1. There's bad QB play, there's utterly atrocious QB play ... and beneath that, there's what McCarthy has put on tape thus far.  There's levels to this, and McCarthy is currently at the bottom level

2. The scenario where he might be looking for a trade is one where no outside reinforcement is brought in to stabilize the QB position.  In other words, the Vikings would be doubling down on that level of QB play.  If that happens (I don't think it will), then I could see Jefferson looking for an out

Here's how I see it. The only way McCarthy is starting next year is if he develops a miraculous comprehension of the game in the last several weeks of the season and it's clear to everyone that he's going to be good. Presuming that does not happen, even if the top brass believe in him, they aren't going to be able to handle an off season where he is still their Plan A. That's assuming they survive the offseason to begin with. This is the absolute worst this franchise has looked nationally since the Love Boat scandal; they are going to want to paint a new picture for 2026.

Now free agency doesn't start until March and the draft isn't until May, so unless he's traded or cut the team may play coy and not publicly talk about a QB change, but it seems next to impossible that McCarthy is the intended starting QB next season.

[gunnarthor]

8 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

Here's how I see it. The only way McCarthy is starting next year is if he develops a miraculous comprehension of the game in the last several weeks of the season and it's clear to everyone that he's going to be good. Presuming that does not happen, even if the top brass believe in him, they aren't going to be able to handle an off season where he is still their Plan A. That's assuming they survive the offseason to begin with. This is the absolute worst this franchise has looked nationally since the Love Boat scandal; they are going to want to paint a new picture for 2026.

Now free agency doesn't start until March and the draft isn't until May, so unless he's traded or cut the team may play coy and not publicly talk about a QB change, but it seems next to impossible that McCarthy is the intended starting QB next season.

That's basically right. If he looks like healthy Joe Burrow these next five games, great. If not, they have to bring in a free agent vet to compete for the job, like Jones/Richardson in Indy. (If the team thinks JJ can't play after watching these last five games, they can also just move on and draft a QB to sit behind the vet). There are going to be real options - Mariota, Wentz, Cousins, Willis, etc. None of them solve the QBOTF issue but they raise the floor. 

The other major issues are 1) we need a new offensive line coach. The line has been bad for too long. It's time to move on. 2) I really think KOC needs another offensive mind to push him on play calling and schemes. I don't know if that means giving up play calling or just bringing in new elements and philosophies but he's having trouble adjusting (to his credit, I think he's had some good games this year but usually he made those adjustments in the week leading up to the game, not on game day). I don't know who that person should be but I want them not to be from the McVay line of coaches. New thoughts.

[Aggies7]

21 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

Here's how I see it. The only way McCarthy is starting next year is if he develops a miraculous comprehension of the game in the last several weeks of the season and it's clear to everyone that he's going to be good. Presuming that does not happen, even if the top brass believe in him, they aren't going to be able to handle an off season where he is still their Plan A. That's assuming they survive the offseason to begin with. This is the absolute worst this franchise has looked nationally since the Love Boat scandal; they are going to want to paint a new picture for 2026.

Now free agency doesn't start until March and the draft isn't until May, so unless he's traded or cut the team may play coy and not publicly talk about a QB change, but it seems next to impossible that McCarthy is the intended starting QB next season.

I would say 2010 was the worst they’ve looked nationally in recent memory. Even the roof collapsed 😂

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I thought Thielen was just brought in to help during Addison suspension anyway. Someone will sign him but he’s way past the wrong side of 30. 

[Mike Sixel]

6 minutes ago, gunnarthor said:

That's basically right. If he looks like healthy Joe Burrow these next five games, great. If not, they have to bring in a free agent vet to compete for the job, like Jones/Richardson in Indy. (If the team thinks JJ can't play after watching these last five games, they can also just move on and draft a QB to sit behind the vet). There are going to be real options - Mariota, Wentz, Cousins, Willis, etc. None of them solve the QBOTF issue but they raise the floor. 

The other major issues are 1) we need a new offensive line coach. The line has been bad for too long. It's time to move on. 2) I really think KOC needs another offensive mind to push him on play calling and schemes. I don't know if that means giving up play calling or just bringing in new elements and philosophies but he's having trouble adjusting (to his credit, I think he's had some good games this year but usually he made those adjustments in the week leading up to the game, not on game day). I don't know who that person should be but I want them not to be from the McVay line of coaches. New thoughts.

How the Ol coach still has a job hurts my brain. Guys leave here, and are instantly better....guys here have no idea how to run a screen. There is something wrong with the OL coaching for sure.

I'm in general agreement on KOC and play calling. I think he's a great HC. I think, he's likely a very good OC, but sometimes he's just too cute, imo. Other times he's not aggressive enough (rarely). 

[nicksaviking]

5 minutes ago, gunnarthor said:

That's basically right. If he looks like healthy Joe Burrow these next five games, great. If not, they have to bring in a free agent vet to compete for the job, like Jones/Richardson in Indy. (If the team thinks JJ can't play after watching these last five games, they can also just move on and draft a QB to sit behind the vet). There are going to be real options - Mariota, Wentz, Cousins, Willis, etc. None of them solve the QBOTF issue but they raise the floor. 

The other major issues are 1) we need a new offensive line coach. The line has been bad for too long. It's time to move on. 2) I really think KOC needs another offensive mind to push him on play calling and schemes. I don't know if that means giving up play calling or just bringing in new elements and philosophies but he's having trouble adjusting (to his credit, I think he's had some good games this year but usually he made those adjustments in the week leading up to the game, not on game day). I don't know who that person should be but I want them not to be from the McVay line of coaches. New thoughts.

If the Bengals fire Zac Taylor, the Vikings should bring him in as OC. No idea if he'll be any good, but I agree KOC needs someone else coming up with gameplans.

And the OL coach has to be replaced. Preferably by somebody who has previously had success as an OL coach. I know Chris Kuper was previously only an assistant OL coach and it was under the really bad Vic Fangio coached Bronco teams.