da BEARS v VIKES 11/16/25

[gunnarthor]

7 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

My leash with him is the next 7 games… If he still looks this bad on the field, that  is probably enough to justify cutting bait after 1 year a la Anthony Richardson and Josh Rosen. 

Yep, let him finish the season to see what we have but if he looks like those two, we move on. That's pretty defensible. I think moving on could mean one of two things, which we don't really have to worry about now. 

1) draft another QB with our (likely, if he's playing that badly) top 10 pick.

2) bring in a vet to be the starter and let JJ sit and watch and get experience in blowouts and learn the offense. Likely what they would have done in year one behind Darnold. I don't know who that vet would be. In fairness, I don't know what the QBs look like for the upcoming draft, either. 

[TheLeviathan]

1 hour ago, Aggies7 said:

Probably his best throw of the day was a drop. 

I wonder if the uptick in drops from our best guys has anything to do with his inaccuracies. In other words, are the receivers out of rhythm because they never know where the ball is going to end up? So even when they do get a good pass thrown to them, their catching mechanics are out of sync?

I think this is it.  He has his receivers gearing up to stand in front of a bullet all the time.  A bullet that won't even hit them in the chest and sometimes will force them to lunge backwards, jump 10 feet in the air, etc.

They're bracing to catch like they have no idea where and what type of ball to anticipate.

[TheLeviathan]

38 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

My leash with him is the next 7 games… If he still looks this bad on the field, that  is probably enough to justify cutting bait after 1 year a la Anthony Richardson and Josh Rosen. 

I think I give him all of 2026 as well.  I understand why others wouldn't, but I want him to have an offseason working on mechanics.  

It took Josh Allen some time, I'm willing to be patient.  This is what I signed up for in moving on from mid-QB to swinging for a stud.

[TheLeviathan]

2 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

That last question in the one I've been asking all year. Why build this expensive, win now team around McCarthy?

I think @Aggies7 nailed it.  You build up a support to let him learn and grow in a situation that isn't a dumpster fire.  

I think they went a bit too far with that (looking at you Jonathan Allen) but overall I don't blame them for it.  The Wilfs demand success and the leadership probably knew that JJ was a work in progress so they hoped the rest of the team would be able to carry him during his development.

Thing is....they're 4-6 and could pretty easily be 7-3 or 8-2 without blowing the Eagles, Ravens, Steelers, and Bears games that were all pretty damn winnable.  JJ has just been worse than they probably thought.  (And hurt)

[Aggies7]

5 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

I think I give him all of 2026 as well.  I understand why others wouldn't, but I want him to have an offseason working on mechanics.  

It took Josh Allen some time, I'm willing to be patient.  This is what I signed up for in moving on from mid-QB to swinging for a stud.

The big question is, do the people in charge have the stomach for things like they witnessed yesterday? The skor north guys talked about it last night. Does ownership have the stomach to watch another year and a half of losing with no guarantee the qb is going to become what they want? The Vikings have never really been willing to totally stink. I would be willing to stink *if* the payoff is there in the end. But, we just don’t know if it will be. 

The unfortunate fact is that it’s really hard to play quarterback in the NFL at a championship level. Some teams are already on their third stringer! Finding a guy to do that is just as hard. The last 30ish years the Vikings have actually had more success signing veteran quarterbacks than drafting them, going all the way back to Jim McMahon. How they didn’t win a couple rings in that period is ponderous (no pun intended)

[Vanimal46]

45 minutes ago, gunnarthor said:

Yep, let him finish the season to see what we have but if he looks like those two, we move on. That's pretty defensible. I think moving on could mean one of two things, which we don't really have to worry about now. 

1) draft another QB with our (likely, if he's playing that badly) top 10 pick.

2) bring in a vet to be the starter and let JJ sit and watch and get experience in blowouts and learn the offense. Likely what they would have done in year one behind Darnold. I don't know who that vet would be. In fairness, I don't know what the QBs look like for the upcoming draft, either. 

As things stand right now, the top QBs in the draft class are Indiana QB Fernando Mendoza - previously terrible at UCLA or Cal can’t remember off the top of my head - who is now looking good with quality coaching. The other is Alabama QB Ty Simpson who is just a 1 year starter. Those type of guys are very risky bets. 

I think we have to bring in a veteran better than Wentz regardless for 2026. Depending how the next 7 games play out, that veteran could range from Jacoby Brissett/Joe Flacco types to calling up the Chargers for Justin Herbert. 

[The Great Hambino]

7 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

The big question is, do the people in charge have the stomach for things like they witnessed yesterday? The skor north guys talked about it last night. Does ownership have the stomach to watch another year and a half of losing with no guarantee the qb is going to become what they want? The Vikings have never really been willing to totally stink. I would be willing to stink *if* the payoff is there in the end. But, we just don’t know if it will be. 

The unfortunate fact is that it’s really hard to play quarterback in the NFL at a championship level. Some teams are already on their third stringer! Finding a guy to do that is just as hard. The last 30ish years the Vikings have actually had more success signing veteran quarterbacks than drafting them, going all the way back to Jim McMahon. How they didn’t win a couple rings in that period is ponderous (no pun intended)

It's hard to know what ownership will be willing to stomach if things go off the rails.  They famously insisted on a competitive rebuild in the aftermath of the Zimmer era because they expect to be competing for the playoffs every year.  So far so good in one sense, as they haven't been below 7 wins in a season since 2013. 

To me, it depends on what kind of timeline KAM & Co sold the Wilfs on for McCarthy's development.  It's possible they get through the end of 2026 to make it work with him as that brings them to decision time for picking up his option. 

But if they really can't stomach this season if it really goes haywire, or if he hasn't hit whatever development benchmarks they're looking to see, then possible the McCarthy era gets cut short.  I just don't know where they can go if it does.  Next year's draft doesn't sound super awesome for QBs, and they'd likely have to burn more draft capital than we'd like in order to get one (for all their flaws, they still recently beat the Lions on the road; this team isn't bad enough to lose out to the point where they're comfortably in range of the first QBs off the board).  But the cap situation next year doesn't shape up super well for bringing in a high-priced veteran, even with the mechanisms they have available to create some space.

So to me, I think they're locked in on N9NE come hell or high water through next season

[Aggies7]

8 minutes ago, The Great Hambino said:

It's hard to know what ownership will be willing to stomach if things go off the rails.  They famously insisted on a competitive rebuild in the aftermath of the Zimmer era because they expect to be competing for the playoffs every year.  So far so good in one sense, as they haven't been below 7 wins in a season since 2013. 

To me, it depends on what kind of timeline KAM & Co sold the Wilfs on for McCarthy's development.  It's possible they get through the end of 2026 to make it work with him as that brings them to decision time for picking up his option. 

But if they really can't stomach this season if it really goes haywire, or if he hasn't hit whatever development benchmarks they're looking to see, then possible the McCarthy era gets cut short.  I just don't know where they can go if it does.  Next year's draft doesn't sound super awesome for QBs, and they'd likely have to burn more draft capital than we'd like in order to get one (for all their flaws, they still recently beat the Lions on the road; this team isn't bad enough to lose out to the point where they're comfortably in range of the first QBs off the board).  But the cap situation next year doesn't shape up super well for bringing in a high-priced veteran, even with the mechanisms they have available to create some space.

So to me, I think they're locked in on N9NE come hell or high water through next season

First thing I’m demanding is that he stop any and all references to his alter ego until he gets that QBR above 30 😂 

[The Great Hambino]

Just now, Aggies7 said:

First thing I’m demanding is that he stop any and all references to his alter ego until he gets that QBR above 30 😂 

I'm going the other way: he can ONLY refer to himself by it from now on.  He has to earn his Christian name back after going down the Russell "Mr Unlimited" Wilson cornball path.   

Giving yourself an alter ego is like giving yourself a tattoo: it's almost certainly a terrible idea, it takes a lot of time and pain to make it go away, and no one is going to let you forget that you did it even after you've gotten rid of it

[gunnarthor]

6 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

First thing I’m demanding is that he stop any and all references to his alter ego until he gets that QBR above 30 😂 

Yeah, that was so cringy. ugh

[Aggies7]

3 minutes ago, The Great Hambino said:

I'm going the other way: he can ONLY refer to himself by it from now on.  He has to earn his Christian name back after going down the Russell "Mr Unlimited" Wilson cornball path.   

Giving yourself an alter ego is like giving yourself a tattoo: it's almost certainly a terrible idea, it takes a lot of time and pain to make it go away, and no one is going to let you forget that you did it even after you've gotten rid of it

[nicksaviking]

1 hour ago, TheLeviathan said:

I think I give him all of 2026 as well.  I understand why others wouldn't, but I want him to have an offseason working on mechanics.  

It took Josh Allen some time, I'm willing to be patient.  This is what I signed up for in moving on from mid-QB to swinging for a stud.

From the onset, my position was that the Vikings needed to know after 2 years max, then try again if needed. So of course last year was a complete waste with him getting hurt in camp, and now we won't know after 2 years.

They're stuck kicking the can down the road again, unable to commit one way or the other. I'm so tired of this as it's basically been the exact position this club has been in for the last 25 years. I know a lot of this is circumstances beyond their control, but it always seems the Vikings are victims of circumstances beyond their control. There's really no good options, they're going to have to try McCarthy again next year even if it looks fruitless.

[gunnarthor]

Apparently Ivan Pace screwed up the coverage on the last kick return. He is third from the top and instead of running his lane, which was the one the runner went to, he cut inside to get there faster. That left the Bears with a lead blocker to knock out Thomas and get the big return. 

https://www.nfl.com/games/bears-at-vikings-2025-reg-11?active-tab=highlights&tab=recap

 

[Aggies7]

2 hours ago, Vanimal46 said:

As things stand right now, the top QBs in the draft class are Indiana QB Fernando Mendoza - previously terrible at UCLA or Cal can’t remember off the top of my head - who is now looking good with quality coaching. The other is Alabama QB Ty Simpson who is just a 1 year starter. Those type of guys are very risky bets. 

I think we have to bring in a veteran better than Wentz regardless for 2026. Depending how the next 7 games play out, that veteran could range from Jacoby Brissett/Joe Flacco types to calling up the Chargers for Justin Herbert. 

Why would the chargers give up on Herbert? I’ve heard this said before but they’d have to be certifiably insane to do that. Was this a possibility at some point?

[Vanimal46]

24 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

Why would the chargers give up on Herbert? I’ve heard this said before but they’d have to be certifiably insane to do that. Was this a possibility at some point?

It was fan fiction in the McCarthy draft that Harbaugh would take his college QB and trade Herbert for a kings ransom….

Then again Herbert was just benched last game so maybe that possibility is growing?

[Aggies7]

1 minute ago, Vanimal46 said:

It was fan fiction in the McCarthy draft that Harbaugh would take his college QB and trade Herbert for a kings ransom….

Then again Herbert was just benched last game so maybe that possibility is growing?

Ah I see 

[TheLeviathan]

2 hours ago, Vanimal46 said:

As things stand right now, the top QBs in the draft class are Indiana QB Fernando Mendoza - previously terrible at UCLA or Cal can’t remember off the top of my head - who is now looking good with quality coaching. The other is Alabama QB Ty Simpson who is just a 1 year starter. Those type of guys are very risky bets. 

I think we have to bring in a veteran better than Wentz regardless for 2026. Depending how the next 7 games play out, that veteran could range from Jacoby Brissett/Joe Flacco types to calling up the Chargers for Justin Herbert. 

Right, next years class is pretty trash.  Which aligns well with 2027 being a time to admit failure IMO.

[TheLeviathan]

1 hour ago, nicksaviking said:

From the onset, my position was that the Vikings needed to know after 2 years max, then try again if needed. So of course last year was a complete waste with him getting hurt in camp, and now we won't know after 2 years.

They're stuck kicking the can down the road again, unable to commit one way or the other. I'm so tired of this as it's basically been the exact position this club has been in for the last 25 years. I know a lot of this is circumstances beyond their control, but it always seems the Vikings are victims of circumstances beyond their control. There's really no good options, they're going to have to try McCarthy again next year even if it looks fruitless.

Yup, that injury last year was a killer.  Even if he never got elevated over Darnold, at least they could've worked on his base every day.

As it is....they need to use those 10 picks, reload the roster with youth, and try again.

[nicksaviking]

28 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

It was fan fiction in the McCarthy draft that Harbaugh would take his college QB and trade Herbert for a kings ransom….

Then again Herbert was just benched last game so maybe that possibility is growing?

Some of my best work! Almost got the Pulitzer. 

[nicksaviking]

1 hour ago, gunnarthor said:

Apparently Ivan Pace screwed up the coverage on the last kick return. He is third from the top and instead of running his lane, which was the one the runner went to, he cut inside to get there faster. That left the Bears with a lead blocker to knock out Thomas and get the big return. 

https://www.nfl.com/games/bears-at-vikings-2025-reg-11?active-tab=highlights&tab=recap

 

Pace screwed up in coverage?!?! Shocking. 

[Vanimal46]

1 minute ago, nicksaviking said:

Some of my best work! Almost got the Pulitzer. 

As the famous philosopher Stefon Diggs said “There’s truth to all rumors”

[Mike Sixel]

54 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

Pace screwed up in coverage?!?! Shocking. 

For allo the talk.... He's pretty much off the team after this year. 

I'm hard pressed to be unbiased here, as I hated the pick, but I think you have to give McCarthy next year also. I guess if he remains the 49th best QB, not then....

Btw, 49 was random and might be too high. 

[Aggies7]

1 hour ago, Mike Sixel said:

For allo the talk.... He's pretty much off the team after this year. 

I'm hard pressed to be unbiased here, as I hated the pick, but I think you have to give McCarthy next year also. I guess if he remains the 49th best QB, not then....

Btw, 49 was random and might be too high. 

It’s really scary going down this road. We can all point and laugh at teams like the jets, browns, raiders and so on, because they can never seem to find a quarterback. But it’s not easy to find the right guy who’s going to work. Remember the hodgepodge of quarterbacks we had to sign after ponder failed and teddy blew up his knee? Shudder.

[Vanimal46]

44 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

It’s really scary going down this road. We can all point and laugh at teams like the jets, browns, raiders and so on, because they can never seem to find a quarterback. But it’s not easy to find the right guy who’s going to work. Remember the hodgepodge of quarterbacks we had to sign after ponder failed and teddy blew up his knee? Shudder.

It's not Browns level of QBs, but since I became a fan in 1998, that's been the way of life for the Vikings. I fully understand that we're waiting for the rookie savior that we can finally rely on for 10+ years. It's becoming pretty clear after 5 games McCarthy is not going to be that guy. You can probably count on one hand in NFL history a player who has started out this terribly and turned it around. For every 1 Josh Allen, there are hundreds of Zach Wilsons who never make it. McCarthy is in the Zach Wilson bucket right now. 

[Cap'n Piranha]

The thing that bothers me about JJM is this; if the issue really is that his mechanics are off, it opens up a lot of possibilities for why, none of which are good.

If JJM had bad mechanics in college, then at least one of the following has to be true

1. KAM and/or KOC didn't realize he had bad mechanics
2. KAM and/or KOC realized he had bad mechanics, thought they could fix them, but haven't been able to
3. KAM and/or KOC realized he had bad mechanics, tried to fix them, but JJM either can't make improvements, or simply won't.

If JJM didn't have bad mechanics in college, then that means at least one of the following has to be true

1. KOC tried to change his mechanics and screwed him up
2. JJM got into bad habits, and KOC has been unable to correct that
3. JJM got into bad habits, and has refused to fix what's broken

So the conclusion is that either KAM totally whiffed on his evaluation, KOC is incompetent, or JJM is ruinously stubborn (or some mixture of the three).  That's all bad times.

[Cap'n Piranha]

On 11/17/2025 at 9:48 AM, gunnarthor said:

Because they've seen the importance of cost-controlled QBs and the ability to shape the roster elsewhere. We went all in on Cousins and it didn't work. This lets the team bring in vets.

This is not accurate.  The important thing is to have a good QB; if that QB can be on a rookie scale deal, that's an enormous bonus, but is not the goal (at least it shouldn't be).  The top 8 teams in SB odds currently all have veteran QBs on FA deals or extensions, and all but 3 of the Top 16 teams have vet QBs.  The ideal is to have a good rookie scale QB, but the next best thing is to just have a good QB, and there are way more good QBs than there are good rookie-scale QBs.

[TheLeviathan]

I do think having a rookie scale QB for seasons 4/5 is enormously beneficial and should be part of the goal of drafting and developing a young QB.

But if you hit on that QB you will have to pay them.  When you do, you will have to draft well to stay in contention.

Part of why KC has stayed in the mix was that they nailed the 2022 draft in getting Karlaftis, McDuffie, Bryan Cook, and Leo Chanel.  Rashee Rice in 2023.  

Right now, KAM's draft success makes the odds of making McCarthy work dubious no matter which angle you take at it.  He won't be adding talent to support him now or extend the window into the future.

[TheLeviathan]

Arif is a brilliant writer and analyst.

[gunnarthor]

1 hour ago, TheLeviathan said:

Arif is a brilliant writer and analyst.

Can't read the whole article but what I could read was solid. 

At the end of the day, KOC has to develop him. He's a good coach. JJ seems "football" smart and willing to learn. He's only 22. We should know one way or other by the end of the season.

[Vanimal46]

Yikes