Chargers @ Vikings 10/23/25

[nicksaviking]

Came to edit the comment that Ingram wasn't a KAM pick. Yeah he was. Also, not a feather in his cap.

So zero good picks in 2022. One good pick in 2023. Somehow the best player taken in 2024 is a kicker and a year and half in, we have zero clue about TWO first round picks, but the indicators aren't good.

And no, trading your picks for veterans doesn't mean you drafted well. It means you've drafted poorly, have to use other picks to fill the holes you couldn't draft and then use more of your salary cap to retain them.

I like Kwesi. But this isn't acceptable because the draft is very important.

[Vanimal46]

I don't have a good feeling about the game tonight if both Darrisaw and O'Niell are out. Hope I'm wrong. 

[Mike Sixel]

1 hour ago, gunnarthor said:

I dunno. That Jefferson guy (26) and Addison (23) are both young and seem ok. But, again, the main issue is JJ. I think he'll be really good. You don't. Not really worth arguing about. 

Addison has less than two years left on his deal. That's way more important than his age. And they won't be signing him, because they have no cheap young players. I'm not confident about JJ. I just don't know. 

[Mike Sixel]

9 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

I don't have a good feeling about the game tonight if both Darrisaw and O'Niell are out. Hope I'm wrong. 

I'm playing in an indoor golf league tonight, so they'll likely look good and win while I don't watch. 

[Mike Sixel]

1 hour ago, nicksaviking said:

Came to edit the comment that Ingram wasn't a KAM pick. Yeah he was. Also, not a feather in his cap.

So zero good picks in 2022. One good pick in 2023. Somehow the best player taken in 2024 is a kicker and a year and half in, we have zero clue about TWO first round picks, but the indicators aren't good.

And no, trading your picks for veterans doesn't mean you drafted well. It means you've drafted poorly, have to use other picks to fill the holes you couldn't draft and then use more of your salary cap to retain them.

I like Kwesi. But this isn't acceptable because the draft is very important.

2025 third round pick has zero offensive snaps, even with Addison missing the first few weeks. So that's looking great. 

[TheLeviathan]

17 hours ago, gunnarthor said:

Statements like this are kinda all over here and Daily Norseman and are troubling, to say it nicely. The Vikings, like every team, have dozens - over 50 - people involved in the draft. It's not one person. Kwesi is not "identifying talent".* He's the GM. He is not a scout. Fans seem to think this is a Madden video game. Kwesi is the guy in charge of the football side of operations and oversees everything from the draft to roster construction to payroll to relationships with agents to hiring staff (and a lot more). Which is generally why GMs should be evaluated not on one single thing - the draft - but rather actual results. Which for him is 37-20, most of the games started by the presumed back-up QB. That is in incredibly good result. For some reason, Kwesi's results are often ignored as are his strategies. 

Second, fans seem to overestimate the draft and how impactful it is. The average NFL career is something like 3.3 years. People complain about Ed Ingram, for example, but he was a good pick. He was taken 59th overall and amassed, at the time we traded him, the 45th most value of players in the 2022 draft. Fans seem to think that every player should be an immediate starter (he was) and a top 10 at his position. While the 24/25 draft classes are still developing, they don't look that bad. JJ is the key, obviously, but Turner has played a lot on a pretty good defense and seems to be a good scheme fit, TID, Redmond, and Levi-Rodriguez have turned themselves into solid rotational pieces on the DL, Reichard is a really good kicker. Before that, Addison, Nailor have both been good WR picks. And the team has generally been pretty good while this has been happening.

Third, fans who want to complain about the draft argue that it is a logical place to complain about because the draft can get a team cheap talent. But then those same people simply ignore that the Vikings have some good young talent and focus on age b/c the Hitman hasn't retired. But we have young guys at QB, RB, WR, LT, LG, IDL, Edge, and safety. Also, Kwesi, unlike Speilman, seems more willing to use draft picks to acquire players. This seems pretty good but others may favor hoarding picks instead. 

I'm pretty optimistic about this team in the long term. I think the coaching staff and FO are really good. Right now, a lot rides on KOC getting JJ into a stud QB. I think he will but JJ has to get and stay healthy. 

* Also, the scouting people ID talent for the draft but there are then, again, literally, dozens of people (coaches and trainers) involved in trying to get the talent into a playable form. We see every NFL team struggle with this. Was Detroit wrong to pick Okudah #3 overall because he wasn't talented? Does talent = NFL readiness? Or did coaching fail him? Or was he not a fit for their system? A combination? etc. Did every NFL team that passed on Jefferson and Addison miss? Or would they have been different players in different environments? 

I liked your post because I appreciate the nuance, but at the end of the day the league is results driven.  Whatever is broken in the process is showing up in the results.  They simply aren't hitting enough in the draft.

Let's just look at the delta since 2022 between Kwesi and Brad Holmes:

2022 - Dumpster fire for Kwesi vs. Hutchinson, Paschal, Kerby Joseph, and a draft heist from the vikes to trade up for Williams.  

2023 -  Addison and Ward vs. Gibbs, Campball, Laporta and Brian Branch

2024 - McCarthy, Turner, Jurgens, Reichard, LDR vs. Arnold, Rakestraw, Mahogony, Manu

2025 - Jackson, TID, and Felton vs. Tyleik Williams, Rutludge, Teslaa

That is a major, major difference in talent acquisition.  And it doesn't include Holmes nailing Sun God in the awesome 2021 draft he had.

The Packers and Bears comp isn't good either.

[Parfigliano]

43 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

I'm playing in an indoor golf league tonight, so they'll likely look good and win while I don't watch. 

Indoor golf league?

[The Great Hambino]

One of the oddest things about Kwesi's tenure has been how much success he's had with undrafted free agents relative to his draft picks.  It's presumably all the same scouting reports informing those decisions.  Are there just more opportunities available to UDFA's given the lack of spots that ought to be filled with draft picks?  If a UDFA beats out a draft pick, does he get as much credit for nailing the UDFA as blame for whiffing on the pick?  I don't know.  Not sure what to make of it

[The Great Hambino]

1 hour ago, Vanimal46 said:

I don't have a good feeling about the game tonight if both Darrisaw and O'Niell are out. Hope I'm wrong. 

Geez Louise, might as well keep JJ in bubble wrap if Rouse and Skule are going to be prominently involved

[Mike Sixel]

13 minutes ago, Parfigliano said:

Indoor golf league?

Trackman sims. First time going. We'll see how I like it. 

[gunnarthor]

4 minutes ago, The Great Hambino said:

One of the oddest things about Kwesi's tenure has been how much success he's had with undrafted free agents relative to his draft picks.  It's presumably all the same scouting reports informing those decisions.  Are there just more opportunities available to UDFA's given the lack of spots that ought to be filled with draft picks?  If a UDFA beats out a draft pick, does he get as much credit for nailing the UDFA as blame for whiffing on the pick?  I don't know.  Not sure what to make of it

Again, it's not really Kwesi, it's the 50+ people involved in the scouting/drafting rooms. I can't find it but there was an article a few years ago in the strib about how the scouting staff was very excited to work with Flores, because he had been a scout for 5 years before coaching and the scouts wanted his thoughts on the types of players to draft. A lot of the undrafted guys - who really help fill out the roster - have been defensive guys. So maybe Flores has a better idea of how to communicate or maybe there's less to communicate on offense - "get me a big guy to block" is, on paper, easier than "get me an EDGE who can cover the flat" or "nickel who can run with WR and TEs." 

My personal belief is that some teams are good at some things but others might not be. For example, the Vikings have always been pretty good at coaching up wide receivers. That doesn't mean all WR we get are going to make it but we seem to have an internalized idea of how to do well. So, yeah, Jefferson and Addison were first round guys but guys like Theilen, Diggs, Nailor have all been serviceable or better, over multiple coaching and front offices but some of those coaches have stuck around. I also think KOC is a good coach for QBs - I don't think Sam Darnold has the year he had last year if he was under Zimmer and, say, Turner at OC.  

[gunnarthor]

1 hour ago, Mike Sixel said:

2025 third round pick has zero offensive snaps, even with Addison missing the first few weeks. So that's looking great. 

Well, he has some offensive snaps since he has a catch but let's see how much the 102 pick plays, typically. 

2025 - Tai Felton - mostly on special teams.
2024 - Troy Franklin - had 28 catches and 6 starts for Denver.
2023 - Mekhi Blackmon - 3 starts, 41 tackles. (He's actually looking really good for Indy, kinda wish we still had him). 
2022 - Channing Tindall - 3 tackles all season.
2021 - Ambry Thomas - 5 starts, 23 tackles. 

So, again, this kind of goes to what is the realistic expectation of a guy picked 102? None of those guys had great rookie seasons, Blackmon being the best, I suppose. That doesn't mean he's a bad pick. He's learning the system, playing a lot on ST, and is likely to move up the depth chart since we're likely to lose Addison, Nailor, and Theilen.

I'm not saying he was a good pick - I have no idea how he will play out. Maybe drafting Skattabo would have been better? But fans have unrealistic expectations. And the most important thing - w/l - the Vikings under KAM have been pretty good at so judging KAM based on the drafts and not the other stuff is what I'm complaining about.  

[gunnarthor]

1 hour ago, Vanimal46 said:

I don't have a good feeling about the game tonight if both Darrisaw and O'Niell are out. Hope I'm wrong. 

Yeah, this isn't a "must-win" since it's a Thursday night road game against an AFC team but it's "almost" a must-win. Since they still have 5 games left against the Lions, Packers, and Bears they control their own destiny a bit, still, but you don't want to fall too many games back. 

[Mike Sixel]

5 minutes ago, gunnarthor said:

Well, he has some offensive snaps since he has a catch but let's see how much the 102 pick plays, typically. 

2025 - Tai Felton - mostly on special teams.
2024 - Troy Franklin - had 28 catches and 6 starts for Denver.
2023 - Mekhi Blackmon - 3 starts, 41 tackles. (He's actually looking really good for Indy, kinda wish we still had him). 
2022 - Channing Tindall - 3 tackles all season.
2021 - Ambry Thomas - 5 starts, 23 tackles. 

So, again, this kind of goes to what is the realistic expectation of a guy picked 102? None of those guys had great rookie seasons, Blackmon being the best, I suppose. That doesn't mean he's a bad pick. He's learning the system, playing a lot on ST, and is likely to move up the depth chart since we're likely to lose Addison, Nailor, and Theilen.

I'm not saying he was a good pick - I have no idea how he will play out. Maybe drafting Skattabo would have been better? But fans have unrealistic expectations. And the most important thing - w/l - the Vikings under KAM have been pretty good at so judging KAM based on the drafts and not the other stuff is what I'm complaining about.  

Seems like a very limited analysis, when there are 30 third round picks.....I mean, limiting yourself to that exact spot seems odd to me. But, ymmv, of course. Not to mention 4th rounders.....

I'm not ONLY judging him on drafts, btw....I'm saying he sucks at drafting (he's the GM, he makes the decisions). I'm saying it is not sustainable at all. They are over the cap next year because he can't draft and has to sign FAs and trade for expensive guys. They have a QB who isn't ready for a veteran team, but have built a veteran team. It's a bad strategy. 

[The Great Hambino]

22 minutes ago, gunnarthor said:

Again, it's not really Kwesi, it's the 50+ people involved in the scouting/drafting rooms.

I think we're all pretty well aware that Kwesi isn't doing the scouting, writing the reports, and making the picks all by himself.  But he's the one in charge.  He's the one determining the shape of the roster, he's the one telling them what name to write on the card, he's the one choosing the director of college scouting.  It's ultimately his responsibility. 

It's not the only area to judge him on - I think he's done pretty well overall, especially in threading the needle with the "competitive rebuild" mandate from ownership.  I think he nailed his coaching hires as well as 2024 free agency.  But it's hard to spin his draft record (and it is his draft record at the end of the day) as any sort of a positive.  

[nicksaviking]

40 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Trackman sims. First time going. We'll see how I like it. 

My buddy talked me into joining a league last year. Still in it. It's a good time. 

[Mike Sixel]

Just now, nicksaviking said:

My buddy talked me into joining a league last year. Still in it. It's a good time. 

This place opened last year, and it is for overly serious dudes who want to get good at golf, as far as I can tell. It is not about playing, mostly, so no bar, no tvs, etc.....so we'll see. 12 bays, ten in the one row. I'm interested in seeing how I like the league, but as a winter practice area it is great. I'm going to stay a member at the place for 17 more weeks or so, at least. 850 square foot putting green, sand trap, workout area, ping pong table, etc.

[Mike Sixel]

3 minutes ago, The Great Hambino said:

I think we're all pretty well aware that Kwesi isn't doing the scouting, writing the reports, and making the picks all by himself.  But he's the one in charge.  He's the one determining the shape of the roster, he's the one telling them what name to write on the card, he's the one choosing the director of college scouting.  It's ultimately his responsibility. 

It's not the only area to judge him on - I think he's done pretty well overall, especially in threading the needle with the "competitive rebuild" mandate from ownership.  I think he nailed his coaching hires as well as 2024 free agency.  But it's hard to spin his draft record (and it is his draft record at the end of the day) as any sort of a positive.  

These are my thoughts as well. They've been very good, esp. given the QB situation. They've done a ton of stuff right. The draft is not one of them. 

[nicksaviking]

The Vikings are drawing a short straw with this Thursday night game. I was at the Vikings/Chargers game in LA five years ago, it was 70% Vikings fans. Most other northern city road teams that play there tend to be at least 50/50. And same as other destination cities that don't care about their teams. LV, AZ, Jacksonville. 

But those fans make a weekend out of it. This might be the only Chargers game all year where the road team isn't the home team.

[Mike Sixel]

In any event, I expect another loss tonight, because Wentz is just not good. 

[nicksaviking]

6 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

This place opened last year, and it is for overly serious dudes who want to get good at golf, as far as I can tell. It is not about playing, mostly, so no bar, no tvs, etc.....so we'll see. 12 bays, ten in the one row. I'm interested in seeing how I like the league, but as a winter practice area it is great. I'm going to stay a member at the place for 17 more weeks or so, at least. 850 square foot putting green, sand trap, workout area, ping pong table, etc.

Ah, yeah we have one of those but I've never been. You're right, the places that don't serve beer are for the super serious and the high school teams looking to stave off the rust during the winter. 

The one I do has a bar and we picked Sunday nights to do it so we can watch the late football game. And we're terrible, so it's just for fun.

[nicksaviking]

3 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

In any event, I expect another loss tonight, because Wentz is just not good. 

I remember when Harbaugh was hired from Michigan, I was posting about my secret hopes that the Vikings could swing a trade getting Herbert for McCarthy and a 1st or so.

 

[Cap'n Piranha]

19 hours ago, gunnarthor said:

Statements like this are kinda all over here and Daily Norseman and are troubling, to say it nicely. The Vikings, like every team, have dozens - over 50 - people involved in the draft. It's not one person. Kwesi is not "identifying talent".* He's the GM. He is not a scout. Fans seem to think this is a Madden video game. Kwesi is the guy in charge of the football side of operations and oversees everything from the draft to roster construction to payroll to relationships with agents to hiring staff (and a lot more). Which is generally why GMs should be evaluated not on one single thing - the draft - but rather actual results. Which for him is 37-20, most of the games started by the presumed back-up QB. That is in incredibly good result. For some reason, Kwesi's results are often ignored as are his strategies. 

Second, fans seem to overestimate the draft and how impactful it is. The average NFL career is something like 3.3 years. People complain about Ed Ingram, for example, but he was a good pick. He was taken 59th overall and amassed, at the time we traded him, the 45th most value of players in the 2022 draft. Fans seem to think that every player should be an immediate starter (he was) and a top 10 at his position. While the 24/25 draft classes are still developing, they don't look that bad. JJ is the key, obviously, but Turner has played a lot on a pretty good defense and seems to be a good scheme fit, TID, Redmond, and Levi-Rodriguez have turned themselves into solid rotational pieces on the DL, Reichard is a really good kicker. Before that, Addison, Nailor have both been good WR picks. And the team has generally been pretty good while this has been happening.

Third, fans who want to complain about the draft argue that it is a logical place to complain about because the draft can get a team cheap talent. But then those same people simply ignore that the Vikings have some good young talent and focus on age b/c the Hitman hasn't retired. But we have young guys at QB, RB, WR, LT, LG, IDL, Edge, and safety. Also, Kwesi, unlike Speilman, seems more willing to use draft picks to acquire players. This seems pretty good but others may favor hoarding picks instead. 

I'm pretty optimistic about this team in the long term. I think the coaching staff and FO are really good. Right now, a lot rides on KOC getting JJ into a stud QB. I think he will but JJ has to get and stay healthy. 

* Also, the scouting people ID talent for the draft but there are then, again, literally, dozens of people (coaches and trainers) involved in trying to get the talent into a playable form. We see every NFL team struggle with this. Was Detroit wrong to pick Okudah #3 overall because he wasn't talented? Does talent = NFL readiness? Or did coaching fail him? Or was he not a fit for their system? A combination? etc. Did every NFL team that passed on Jefferson and Addison miss? Or would they have been different players in different environments? 

Is Kwesi in charge of the drafting process? Do all 50 of those people roll up to him?  Is it his job to synthesize all the data he's given, and make the ultimate decision on which player to select?  I remember hearing you're a lawyer, so imagine a scenario where a paralegal or research assistant gives you a brief, which you use in court.  That brief gets ripped to shreds, and causes you to lose your case.  Your senior partner calls you into his office and asks why you lost that case, and why you used a bad brief; do you think saying "I can't be held responsible for the information I was given by someone else" will fly with him?  If the drafts are bad, it's either because Kwesi is getting bad information and can't identify that it's bad, has a bad drafting staff and hasn't fixed it, or just doesn't care that he's getting bad info.

You are correct that the Vikings with Kwesi as GM are 37-20; although if you won't blame him for objectively bad drafts, I'm not sure how you can credit him for on-field results--certainly that credit should be better attributed to the coaching staff and players?  If you want to say Kwesi gets credit because he brought those players in, then you have to acknowledge that he has failed to bring in sufficient players through the draft, which is why he's had to splurge in FA.  That 37-20 record is also built on consistently beating non-playoff teams (26-6 through 2024) while consistently losing to playoff teams (8-13 including the playoff games in 2022 and 2024).  That has carried through this year, where the Vikings have played 2 teams currently in the playoffs, and lost to both of them (Steelers and Eagles).  So Kwesi has built a team that seems like the best of the non-playoff teams, or the worst of the playoff teams.  Excuse me for wanting more.  Given that winning percentage against playoff teams, the Vikings have a 5% chance of winning 3 straight games in the playoffs, or a 2% chance of winning 4.  Not great odds to win a superbowl.

The fact that you think the draft is not important in modern football makes me wonder if you're even following the NFL at all.  Name me the last team that won a superbowl, or even played in one, based mostly on free agents.  Far and away the most important thing for any organization is to be good at drafting, and that is the exact thing that Vikings have been worst at under Kwesi.  The team has young guys sure, but that doesn't mean they're good.  The young QB has been bad so far, and while he could still get better, he also might not.  The young edge is mostly a non-factor, and given the capital required to get him, looks like one of the worst busts in Vikings history.  The young LT is already 26 (meaning he's no longer young), the young RB is 26 (meaning he's no longer young, especially for an RB), the young LG is 69th out of 114 guards in PFF, the young WR (I assume you mean Addison) might get traded this offseason because the Vikings can't afford the big extension he will surely want, the young IDL (I assume you mean TID, Williams, LDR, and Redmond) have combined for 46 tackles and 4 sacks in 6 games, not to mention Redmond is 26 and LDR is 25, so not exactly young.

I find it interesting that your defense of Turner is that he's played a lot on a good defense, as if that somehow makes him good.  He's 68th out of 113 Edges in PFF--not great.  Reichard is obviously great, but Nailor in his last 23 games has 41 receptions; you think a guy in his 3rd/4th season who can't even get to 2 receptions a game (despite the fact that he should be open constantly given the attention Jefferson/Addison get) is a good pick?  He's going to be off the team next year, because why in the world would the Vikings pay him for that production?  If he was such a good pick, why did the Vikings panic-trade a 4th rounder for a washed Adam Thielen in August, as opposed to just use him as their 2nd WR for 3 games?

So in short, the young players you mention are all either not particularly good, not particularly young, or not particularly likely to be on the team long term, with the possible exception of JJ and Turner.  The team is not set up for the future, and the only reason they've managed to win games in the past couple of years (hitting on their FA signings) is a well that has now run dry, since the Vikings are already over the 2026 cap (pending the increase); the Vikings in fact have the most money committed to players next year of any team in the NFL, and are therefore in the worst position to add talent in FA.  I find it much more likely that the Vikings have a new GM/Coach 3 years from now than a Lombardi.

[Cap'n Piranha]

1 hour ago, Mike Sixel said:

These are my thoughts as well. They've been very good, esp. given the QB situation. They've done a ton of stuff right. The draft is not one of them. 

They have done a lot of stuff right.  Unfortunately none of it matters at all if you can't be at least average in drafting.  The complete incompetence of the Kwesi regime in drafting has negated everything else.

[TheLeviathan]

2 hours ago, The Great Hambino said:

It's  not the only area to judge him on - I think he's done pretty well overall, especially in threading the needle with the "competitive rebuild" mandate from ownership.  

This needs to be mentioned more often....that needle was a real problem and a major part of the 2022 draft debacle IMO.

[Vanimal46]

4 hours ago, The Great Hambino said:

Geez Louise, might as well keep JJ in bubble wrap if Rouse and Skule are going to be prominently involved

Pictured: Carson Wentz preparing for this OL tonight 

[Vanimal46]

3 hours ago, nicksaviking said:

The Vikings are drawing a short straw with this Thursday night game. I was at the Vikings/Chargers game in LA five years ago, it was 70% Vikings fans. Most other northern city road teams that play there tend to be at least 50/50. And same as other destination cities that don't care about their teams. LV, AZ, Jacksonville. 

But those fans make a weekend out of it. This might be the only Chargers game all year where the road team isn't the home team.

I know nothing about the Inglewood area where the stadium is. But I would still make a weekend out of it driving down to the Chargers’ original location… San Diego is one of my favorite US cities 

[nicksaviking]

43 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

I know nothing about the Inglewood area where the stadium is. But I would still make a weekend out of it driving down to the Chargers’ original location… San Diego is one of my favorite US cities 

San Diego is 100x more fun than Inglewood. There is absolutely nothing to do at the LA stadium, it takes you all morning to get there, and another couple hours to get back.

It's one of those new suburban stadiums where the owners and developers get to design a giant patch of real estate. The only bar or or restaurant is in a new casino on the lot. Food and drinks at the casino were stadium priced, you have to ante each hand to play blackjack, (I'm not sure how that's even legal, no one will ever win and dummies will still play), and it's the only place to walk to after the game so it's hours wait for ride share. Which obviously was intentional as they want you to stay; see the part about it being a rigged casino.

This is the future. Screw the local businesses in downtown San Francisco, New England, New York, Phoenix, Dallas and soon to be Cleveland. Just keep giving us more money while getting next to nothing in return.

Stadium itself is nice though.

[The Great Hambino]

1 hour ago, Vanimal46 said:

Pictured: Carson Wentz preparing for this OL tonight 

I think they might be an injury away from that kid playing left tackle

[Vanimal46]

Excellent last minute news!