Keep on losing!

[Dance with Disco Dan]

I don't think we need them to lose intentionally.

They've been doing a very good job of it unintentionally!

 

Exactly. Even a team of Bill James, Nate Silver, and Matlock would be unable to determine if and when the Twins shift from losing-because-that's-how-bad-we-are to actual deliberate tanking. Can you ever really tell when a fish is bathing?

[greengoblinrulz]

I'm with you. In fact, if the Twins did end up in a position to draft Carlos Rodon, the organization from the very top to the very bottom would probably be completely overhauled. Some readers might love that idea; personally, I wouldn't. Someone is (or more likely may people are) responsible for a farm system that ranks near the top of all of baseball. It would be nice if those not-talked-about people got to see the fruits of their labor. And a new GM likely means a complete overhaul of the scouting staff.

 

Bill Smith didn't get to stick around to see his prospects flourish so why should Terry Ryan?

 

Don't root for Twins to lose...tho I caught myself doing it this yr.....but rather for specific players that don't belong to fail

[Riverbrian]

I'll continue to do what I do. Watch them play and hope for improvement. Hopefully they will learn how to win.

 

The team won't tank on purpose... It's not a possibility. Players are playing for Contracts... Careers... Jobs.

 

The front office can trade way all assets and go young but the young guys will still be expected to try and win and compete. You can acquire minor league talent to build for the future but what they learn at the MLB level is still critical when you build for the future and that includes so called stop gap players.

 

Whoever is in the lineup from now until October... Strap it on... Get your eye black on and compete.

 

Let the record be what it will be.

[70charger]

Exactly. Even a team of Bill James, Nate Silver, and Matlock would be unable to determine if and when the Twins shift from losing-because-that's-how-bad-we-are to actual deliberate tanking. Can you ever really tell when a fish is bathing?

 

When it pulls out the soap?

 

Seriously though, there are pluses to losing, but I don't think (and I wouldn't want) the team to intentionally lose games.

[DaveW]

It's a real shame the Twins didn't end up with the number 1 pick a couple years ago, that Buxton kid they had to take at #2 was sure a bust.

[Lonestar]

I was just about to post the current 2014 draft order when I saw this thread.

 

[TABLE=width: 330]

[TD=class: xl65, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent]Order[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 119, bgcolor: transparent, align: center] after 7/10[/TD]

[TD=class: xl65, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]W[/TD]

[TD=class: xl65, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]L[/TD]

[TD=class: xl65, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent]PCT[/TD]

[TD=class: xl65, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent]GB[/TD]

[TD=class: xl65, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]6[/TD]

[TD=class: xl67, width: 119, bgcolor: transparent]Seattle[/TD]

[TD=class: xl68, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]40[/TD]

[TD=class: xl68, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]50[/TD]

[TD=class: xl69, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent]0.444[/TD]

[TD=class: xl70, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent]15.0[/TD]

[TD=class: xl65, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]5[/TD]

[TD=class: xl67, width: 119, bgcolor: transparent]Minnesota[/TD]

[TD=class: xl68, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]37[/TD]

[TD=class: xl68, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]50[/TD]

[TD=class: xl69, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent]0.425[/TD]

[TD=class: xl70, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent]16.5[/TD]

[TD=class: xl65, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]4[/TD]

[TD=class: xl67, width: 119, bgcolor: transparent]Milwaukee[/TD]

[TD=class: xl68, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]37[/TD]

[TD=class: xl68, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]52[/TD]

[TD=class: xl69, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent]0.416[/TD]

[TD=class: xl70, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent]17.5[/TD]

[TD=class: xl65, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]3[/TD]

[TD=class: xl67, width: 119, bgcolor: transparent]Chicago Sox[/TD]

[TD=class: xl68, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]35[/TD]

[TD=class: xl68, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]52[/TD]

[TD=class: xl69, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent]0.402[/TD]

[TD=class: xl70, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent]18.5[/TD]

[TD=class: xl65, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]2[/TD]

[TD=class: xl67, width: 119, bgcolor: transparent]Miami[/TD]

[TD=class: xl68, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]32[/TD]

[TD=class: xl68, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]57[/TD]

[TD=class: xl69, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent]0.360[/TD]

[TD=class: xl70, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent]22.5[/TD]

[TD=class: xl65, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]1[/TD]

[TD=class: xl67, width: 119, bgcolor: transparent]Houston[/TD]

[TD=class: xl68, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]32[/TD]

[TD=class: xl68, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent, align: center]58[/TD]

[TD=class: xl69, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent]0.356[/TD]

[TD=class: xl70, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent]23.0[/TD]

[/TABLE]

 

I agree with Twins Fan From Afar.

 

I don't think we need them to lose intentionally.

They've been doing a very good job of it unintentionally!

[Highabove]

Well, it looks like the Brewers will win tonight along with the White Sox. They will most likely pass the Twins (I think) and that leaves the Marlins and Astros. Keep on losing! Let's get Rodon!

 

To h#ll with the Fans who have bought tickets to see the Twins play at Target Field.

[Guest USAFChief]

The very existence of this thread is an indictment of the organization. A strong one.

[cmb0252]

Tanking is not only an ugly word for what the Twins could be doing but an inaccurate word. The organization isn't sitting their best players (like basketball ball teams often do). They aren't trading every player that has more than one years experience (like the Astros or Marlins). They actively tried to get FAs in the off season but found most guys didn't want to come to MN unless over payed. Over paying for mediocre talent is how teams stay bad for a long time. Players, managers, and front office people are "playing" for their jobs.

 

Now, realizing you will not make the playoffs so might as well plan for the following years is completely different from tanking. Finding at bats or innings for younger players to see what you got and trading pieces to play off contenders for prospects or cost controlled players isn't tanking. Its being smart. While normally it results in more losses, which leads to higher draft picks, it isn't the sole reason.

[cmb0252]

It's a real shame the Twins didn't end up with the number 1 pick a couple years ago, that Buxton kid they had to take at #2 was sure a bust.

 

Having the team drafting above you pass on the #1 talent in the draft isn't a normal occurrence. If the Twins won just 2 more games they wouldn't have had a chance at him because the M's would have taken him.

[Smcginnity]

Speaking of which, the Marlins just won! Yes!

[BabyJesusBuxton]

I enjoy the buzz come draft time when the Twins have a top pick as much as the next guy but in all seriousness anyone who thinks the team would not give 100% every game to win is crazy. These guys are professional athletes playing for their next paycheck. If someone starts to slack off he is going to lose playing time to another player busting his @$$. The simple fact is that the Twins don't have the starting pitching to compete currently partially due to lack of FA spending and partially due to lack of development from the young pitchers.

 

There is another thread to argue about TR's role in the current situation. By no means does that mean the team is tanking the season. I do believe that TR envisioned this happening this year when putting the team together but I also believe that if he thought he could have put together a team that would challenge the Tigers for the central this year he would have spent more in FA. I also think he has a vision for how to return the team to a winning ball club.

 

As a STH I am hoping there are a couple trades made at the deadline to be able to see some new prospects up in Minnesota and watch them develop. I try to find the silver lining watching the team so the scoreboard isn't quite as hard to look at and getting to see Hicks and Arcia has been fun (mostly). It is much easier to do so this year when I expected the Twins to struggle as compared to 2011 when they were supposed to be good! I definitely won't be happy if there isn't progress in the W/L column next year!!

[AlwaysinModeration]

I don't get the indignation over this thread. Anyone on this thread rooting for the team to lose over the next couple of months--when we all perfectly understand they aren't going to the playoffs this year--is rooting for the Twins to win a World Series in the years ahead. The best chance they have of winning a World Series is to amass as much young talent as possible. So I'll be cheering for trades for prospects, Marlins and Astro and White Sox and Brewers victories, and yes, Twins losses.

 

I also want the young guys to get their chances, knowing they will be trying their hardest to play well and establish themselves...Parmelee, Plouffe, Gibson, Hicks, Arcia, Colabello, Tonkin. But I am not going to mind them losing (here's looking at you Correia, Pelfrey, and Diamond...) this year. The future is bright.

[ThePuck]

I don't get the indignation over this thread. Anyone on this thread rooting for the team to lose over the next couple of months--when we all perfectly understand they aren't going to the playoffs this year--is rooting for the Twins to win a World Series in the years ahead. The best chance they have of winning a World Series is to amass as much young talent as possible. So I'll be cheering for trades for prospects, Marlins and Astro and White Sox and Brewers victories, and yes, Twins losses.

 

I also want the young guys to get their chances, knowing they will be trying their hardest to play well and establish themselves...Parmelee, Plouffe, Gibson, Hicks, Arcia, Colabello, Tonkin. But I am not going to mind them losing (here's looking at you Correia, Pelfrey, and Diamond...) this year. The future is bright.

 

Some people have a hard time wrapping their head around the idea of wanting their favorite team to lose. Not sure why you have such a hard time understanding that.

[diehardtwinsfan]

Now, realizing you will not make the playoffs so might as well plan for the following years is completely different from tanking. Finding at bats or innings for younger players to see what you got and trading pieces to play off contenders for prospects or cost controlled players isn't tanking. Its being smart. While normally it results in more losses, which leads to higher draft picks, it isn't the sole reason.

 

This times a thousand. It's not tanking. Trading guys, especially guys that have some value but are not long term fixtures should be what Ryan is aggressively pursuing. I'd go a step further and add that trading a guy like Perkins, who has significant value and is likely overvalued as a reliever would make a ton of sense IF the return was significant. It will result in more losses in the short term and add additional pieces in the long term.

[clutterheart]

2013: Fiasco for Carlo?

This kid looks pretty good. if we are going to be bad anyway...why not?

 

Maybe its time to put Hendricks back in the rotation to "see what we got in him"

 

Here is a scouting report:

from Don Olson on 6/18/2013

Stout wide frame, impressive present strength and build, think maturation and power potential TORL. FB was 90-94 mph (95), cruising speed is never an issue. 4S was solid 92-95 mph, nice backspin with arm slot tails away from RHH. Works both sides of the plate, attacks the inside, and changes eye levels constantly with the offering, all natural late subtle movement. Command is average, think it can improve with his ability, losses it a little too much low, point of improvement. He hides the ball well and can get hitters to stretch the zone. 2S 90-91 mph (92) with a good amount of hand side tail that is hard, showed good command, hits it consistently L/O. Cutter/Baby Slider was tight with good bite, more horizontal than vertical tilt at 89-91, safe plus grade with room to grow, effective action to both sides hitters, shows action that forces swings. Curve has good shape, a lot of spin with late drop action, but not a heavy rotation offering at any view this spring. He shows a projectable change, showed good arm action and potentially highly deceptive, but it is a work in progress, point to monitor in the future.

 

 

They have video if you click the link:

2014 MLB Draft Profile: Carlos Rodon

[InfraRen]

Yes, Rodon is a likely top 3 pick (maybe 1 overall.) He, Beede, Touissant are 3 pitchers expected to be in the top 5 range (as of now.)

[Guest USAFChief]

I don't get the indignation over this thread. Anyone on this thread rooting for the team to lose over the next couple of months--when we all perfectly understand they aren't going to the playoffs this year--is rooting for the Twins to win a World Series in the years ahead. The best chance they have of winning a World Series is to amass as much young talent as possible. So I'll be cheering for trades for prospects, Marlins and Astro and White Sox and Brewers victories, and yes, Twins losses.

 

I also want the young guys to get their chances, knowing they will be trying their hardest to play well and establish themselves...Parmelee, Plouffe, Gibson, Hicks, Arcia, Colabello, Tonkin. But I am not going to mind them losing (here's looking at you Correia, Pelfrey, and Diamond...) this year. The future is bright.

I long to see the Twins lose 95+ games (yet again) with the likes of the "young" Chris Colabello getting a chance to establish himself.

 

I also wish Hicks, Arcia, Parmelee, Plouffe, Gibson and the rest weren't languishing away in AAA, where they can't try their hardest to play well and establish themselves.

[cmb0252]

2013: Fiasco for Carlo?

This kid looks pretty good. if we are going to be bad anyway...why not?

 

Maybe its time to put Hendricks back in the rotation to "see what we got in him"

 

Here is a scouting report:

 

 

 

They have video if you click the link:

2014 MLB Draft Profile: Carlos Rodon

 

I have seen Rodon compared to David Price on more than one occasion. While Rodon looks like a stud, next years draft is considered about 7-8 deep in elite talent, so its not like the Twins need to finish last. Its strengths are front of the rotation starters and SS prospects.....I wonder if the Twins need either of those.

[howieramone1406390264]

I have seen Rodon compared to David Price on more than one occasion. While Rodon looks like a stud, next years draft is considered about 7-8 deep in elite talent, so its not like the Twins need to finish last. Its strengths are front of the rotation starters and SS prospects.....I wonder if the Twins need either of those.

 

I agree. The Twins still desperately need additional starting pitching prospects, but no way I would pass up our SS of the future. Ryan knows he has only so many solid shots. With Perkins and then the 2014 draft, I'd be very surprised if he doesn't pick up a SP and SS, in whatever order. After that IMO things get more complicated and expensive.

[AlwaysinModeration]

Some people have a hard time wrapping their head around the idea of wanting their favorite team to lose. Not sure why you have such a hard time understanding that.

 

Fair enough, but they are rooting for their team to win...playoff games.

[AlwaysinModeration]

I long to see the Twins lose 95+ games (yet again) with the likes of the "young" Chris Colabello getting a chance to establish himself.

 

I also wish Hicks, Arcia, Parmelee, Plouffe, Gibson and the rest weren't languishing away in AAA, where they can't try their hardest to play well and establish themselves.

 

First of all, kind of harsh. And second, I've said before that I think Colabello could be a valuable part of the team for 3-4 years, as a DH or 1B. The only way to find out if he can actually hit like he has been hitting this year, is to give him a shot in the bigs. And what better time than during a 90+ loss campaign?

[ThePuck]

Fair enough, but they are rooting for their team to win...playoff games.

 

 

I root for my team to win, period. It's not conditional on playoffs, though of course that's what we all want to happen. Having high drafts choices doesn't guarantee winning playoffs games. Certainly there's plenty of examples to disprove that theory. Even if it was true, have to pick the right guys, develop them properly, and then they have to be used properly and work out. Also have to utilize all ways to get good players. There's a lot to it, and losing to get high picks doesn't guarantee playoff victories.

[AlwaysinModeration]

I don't think anyone is arguing that high draft picks guarantee playoff victories.

 

But can we agree that having better players on your team improves your chances of making the playoffs?

 

I'ved lived in DC for the entire Nats existence. The first several years were brutal, and it was the two years that they got the top picks that landed them Strasburg and Harper.

[cmb0252]

I root for my team to win, period. It's not conditional on playoffs, though of course that's what we all want to happen. Having high drafts choices doesn't guarantee winning playoffs games. Certainly there's plenty of examples to disprove that theory. Even if it was true, have to pick the right guys, develop them properly, and then they have to be used properly and work out. Also have to utilize all ways to get good players. There's a lot to it, and losing to get high picks doesn't guarantee playoff victories.

 

You are right. Having high draft choices doesn't guarantee future success but it has be researched several times, most recently BA, that higher the pick the more likely for not only big league success but stardom. You are also right that development, picking the right player, and proper use all have a big effect on the players future. Heck, I would add injury and immaturity to that as well as reasons that drafting high players doesn't guarantee success. While losing to get a higher pick doesn't guarantee playoff victories, nothing truly does, there is value (even more value because of the new system) in getting a higher pick.

 

There are no participation trophies in the major league but there is the opportunity to draft better prospects.

[ThePuck]

I don't think anyone is arguing that high draft picks guarantee playoff victories.

 

But can we agree that having better players on your team improves your chances of making the playoffs?

 

I'ved lived in DC for the entire Nats existence. The first several years were brutal, and it was the two years that they got the top picks that landed them Strasburg and Harper.

 

Your post sure seemed to suggest you were arguing exactly that, since you're advocating it's a good idea to lose games then you talk about how we want to have playoffs wins in a counter argument against someone saying they don't like the idea of wanting the Twins to lose.I'll take your word for it you didn't mean that and I misunderstood.

 

Yes, having better players on your team improves your chances of making the playoffs...but those are players that get to the major leagues and actually prove they are better players. Since a drafted player doesn't go directly to the majors after being drafted, we don't know for sure they are better players. Plenty of busts to show that.

 

We had 6 chances to get Pedroia in one draft and passed on him. Boston got him with their first pick. Talent can be found in rounds other than the first, or high in the first, but yeah, there's a better chance they best players come in the highest parts of the draft as a general rule.

 

How many high drafted picks have the Pirates and Royals had in the last, say, twenty years or so? When was the last time either made the playoffs.

 

I say root for them to win, period. They'll lose plenty of games, I don't need to hope they do. That's me though. You have your own way to be a fan, that's fine.

[launchingthrees]

This season is a lost cause. I'd like another top 5 pick to complete the rebuilding process!

[clutterheart]

I root for my team to win, periods.

 

Me too. 95% of the time I always want them to win. But taking solace in the loses due to the draft potential is not so bad. And if the team tries out the young guys at the expense of a few wins, thats not so bad. If the young guys show improvement but the club loses, thats not so bad.

 

But if there is 10 games left in the season and a chance to "secure" the top draft spot by avoiding winning, I would have no problem with Mauer pitching to keep his bat out of the line up.

[Thegrin]

I want to see the Twins keep trying. I want to see the young guys learning. I want to see Gardy bring these players to the playoffs in a few years. I watch what is happening and I see many reasons to hope.

[diehardtwinsfan]

I root for my team to win, period. It's not conditional on playoffs, though of course that's what we all want to happen. Having high drafts choices doesn't guarantee winning playoffs games. Certainly there's plenty of examples to disprove that theory. Even if it was true, have to pick the right guys, develop them properly, and then they have to be used properly and work out. Also have to utilize all ways to get good players. There's a lot to it, and losing to get high picks doesn't guarantee playoff victories.

 

You have a point here... to an extent. I don't think anyone would tell you that having a good farm system, hot prospects, high picks, etc. will guarantee that you win regular season games/playoff games. However, while some prospects fail, the more you have, the more likely you are to end up with the ML talent that does win games and playoff games.

 

You are correct on the development piece as well.

 

The problem is that when the ML team sucks, which it has for several years, there really isn't any way to get out of that funk except to develop a good farm. The Twins don't have the budget to plug in every high priced FA out there, and quite frankly, the FA market typically doesn't have enough pieces to do that either. There are examples of how this works as well. The Marlins are one of the more recent ones, where just two years ago they spent a bazillion dollars on expensive FAs and even tried and failed to bring in Pujols. It didn't work.

 

Where the team sits presently, it is in the best LONG TERM interest to aquire as many high ceiling prospects as possible and see what it has in terms of talent that can be used to augement them. The best way to do that is to trade off what won't contribute to the next wave and let the talent that's in the majors take some lumps. The end result will be more losses in the short term as well.