Is Emphasizing Depth Charges Like Ty France the Right Offseason Strategy?

[NYCTK]

10 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

Agreed, but that's why I understand the France complaints and am mystified by the Bader ones.  Bader clearly fits.

I think it must just boil down to hometown fans, having heard about Player X for so long, unwilling to come to understand that X isn't nearly as good as the outsider.

 

[TheLeviathan]

59 minutes ago, NYCTK said:

I think it must just boil down to hometown fans, having heard about Player X for so long, unwilling to come to understand that X isn't nearly as good as the outsider.

 

I think most of the bad arguments around Bader are Terry Ryan Free Agency PTSD.  TRFAPTSD is a real condition.  One I totally understand, but does lead to some conclusions I don't always agree with.

[KirbyDome89]

3 hours ago, TheLeviathan said:

Agreed, but that's why I understand the France complaints and am mystified by the Bader ones.  Bader clearly fits.

Usage and opportunity. 

[TheLeviathan]

20 minutes ago, KirbyDome89 said:

Usage and opportunity. 

In the case of Bader, I don't think those are valid criticisms.  Might he be over-used by the front office/manager due to platooning?   Sure, but if that's the usage it blocks literally no one of importance in the farm.  If (when) Buxton misses time, his primary role is one no one else in the minors is ready to fill. So I find that half of the criticism bunk.

Opportunity?  Well, maybe on E-Rod, but he has his own health concerns and his call-up likely depends more on the available ABs at DH/LF/RF, on which Bader may have some impact but is unlikely to cost him a roster spot for those positions.  Those opportunities are going to be driven by his production and the health of Larnach, Wallner, Castro, etc.

If we're going to apply those "when/how/why" we ought to do so more fairly than we seem to be doing in the case of Bader.  "But what about Austin Martin!" just doesn't motivate me much Mrs. Flanders.

[KirbyDome89]

20 hours ago, TheLeviathan said:

In the case of Bader, I don't think those are valid criticisms.  Might he be over-used by the front office/manager due to platooning?   Sure, but if that's the usage it blocks literally no one of importance in the farm.  If (when) Buxton misses time, his primary role is one no one else in the minors is ready to fill. So I find that half of the criticism bunk.

Opportunity?  Well, maybe on E-Rod, but he has his own health concerns and his call-up likely depends more on the available ABs at DH/LF/RF, on which Bader may have some impact but is unlikely to cost him a roster spot for those positions.  Those opportunities are going to be driven by his production and the health of Larnach, Wallner, Castro, etc.

If we're going to apply those "when/how/why" we ought to do so more fairly than we seem to be doing in the case of Bader.  "But what about Austin Martin!" just doesn't motivate me much Mrs. Flanders.

The "blocking," aspect is irrelevant, and it's being used as a strawman of sorts by other posters. Is Bader going to be used as a true short side platoon OF and late innings defensive replacement/pinch runner, or are we going to see him getting starts in the corner vs. RHP + CF on Buxton rest days as well as entering games early (5th inning on) as a PH? 

How long will the least be with that $7M price tag? Again, E-Rod or whoever aren't even part of this discussion. How many PAs will this team feed to a glove only OF in the name of "depth," or defensive flexibility? Is this team actually going to discard a vet they've spent that type of money on?

Agreed, we should be fair, but the issue seems to be his idealized role vs. reality. 

[NYCTK]

35 minutes ago, KirbyDome89 said:

The "blocking," aspect is irrelevant, and it's being used as a strawman of sorts by other posters. Is Bader going to be used as a true short side platoon OF and late innings defensive replacement/pinch runner, or are we going to see him getting starts in the corner vs. RHP + CF on Buxton rest days as well as entering games early (5th inning on) as a PH? 

How long will the least be with that $7M price tag? Again, E-Rod or whoever aren't even part of this discussion. How many PAs will this team feed to a glove only OF in the name of "depth," or defensive flexibility? Is this team actually going to discard a vet they've spent that type of money on?

Agreed, we should be fair, but the issue seems to be his idealized role vs. reality. 

The season is 162 games long. Pretending Bader starting a game against a lefty instead of career Larnach or Wallner with their combined career 550 OPS against lefties is some sort of travesty is just stupid. Trying to act as though career OPS+ 102 Larnach, or career 35% K rate Wallner, each with their bad outfield defense, are perfect players that must see 650 PAs and every inning in the field, again, is just stupid. 

There's plenty of playing time for all of Wallner, Larnach, Buxton, Bader, and probably some left over for Keirsey still, since he's still on the 40 man. And, yes, sadly even some, too much in fact, for the worst amongst them, Austin Martin. 

[KirbyDome89]

23 minutes ago, NYCTK said:

The season is 162 games long. Pretending Bader starting a game against a lefty instead of career Larnach or Wallner with their combined career 550 OPS against lefties is some sort of travesty is just stupid. Trying to act as though career OPS+ 102 Larnach, or career 35% K rate Wallner, each with their bad outfield defense, are perfect players that must see 650 PAs and every inning in the field, again, is just stupid. 

There's plenty of playing time for all of Wallner, Larnach, Buxton, Bader, and probably some left over for Keirsey still, since he's still on the 40 man. And, yes, sadly even some, too much in fact, for the worst amongst them, Austin Martin. 

Larnach and Wallner (who each held their own against LHP in the minors) combined for 67 PAs vs LHP pitching last year. That's enough to sit them vs. LHP without a second thought, but notorious lefty killer Harrison Bader and his .612 OPS vs LHP in 153 PAs last year gets a pass? Odd. I'll gladly listen to a SSS argument, but I'll also direct you to the 67 combined PAs. Maybe you misread my post (such a "stupid," thought might not have come across clearly) but I'm not opposed to Bader as a short side OF, I just have zero faith that'll actually be his role. 

The number of options this team can shuffle through isn't what's in question. How they'll choose to invest that playing time is what we're discussing. 

[NYCTK]

13 minutes ago, KirbyDome89 said:

Larnach and Wallner (who each held their own against LHP in the minors) combined for 67 PAs vs LHP pitching last year. That's enough to sit them vs. LHP without a second thought, but notorious lefty killer Harrison Bader and his .612 OPS vs LHP in 153 PAs last year gets a pass? Odd. I'll gladly listen to a SSS argument, but I'll also direct you to the 67 combined PAs. Maybe you misread my post (such a "stupid," thought might not have come across clearly) but I'm not opposed to Bader as a short side OF, I just have zero faith that'll actually be his role. 

The number of options this team can shuffle through isn't what's in question. How they'll choose to invest that playing time is what we're discussing. 

I'm not even saying they shouldn't ever be allowed to face lefties. But there's a real chance that one or both of them continue to struggle. Especially with Larnach, when do you stop hoping that his 2019 AA splits are more telling of ability than the entirety of his MLB career? 

It's just a fact that in nearly 300 PAs against LHP Wallner and Larnach have hit a combined .182 with about a .550 OPS.  And we don't need to pretend as if that's just going get better for both players if they see more LHP. 

I think I agree with most of the people here that Wallner deserves another chance to prove himself against them. But Larnach? I just really don't care if he sits in favor of the much better hitting and much, much better fielding Bader against them, even if it were on opening day or in a tough spot in the 5th inning. Especially since he's a pretty bad outfielder and baserunner as well. 

 

[KirbyDome89]

19 minutes ago, NYCTK said:

I'm not even saying they shouldn't ever be allowed to face lefties. But there's a real chance that one or both of them continue to struggle. Especially with Larnach, when do you stop hoping that his 2019 AA splits are more telling of ability than the entirety of his MLB career? 

It's just a fact that in nearly 300 PAs against LHP Wallner and Larnach have hit a combined .182 with about a .550 OPS.  And we don't need to pretend as if that's just going get better for both players if they see more LHP. 

I think I agree with most of the people here that Wallner deserves another chance to prove himself against them. But Larnach? I just really don't care if he sits in favor of the much better hitting and much, much better fielding Bader against them, even if it were on opening day or in a tough spot in the 5th inning. Especially since he's a pretty bad outfielder and baserunner as well. 

 

I think there's an equal or greater chance that Bader continues his struggles, except there's no upside vs. RHP which he'll see at least 50% of the time. Larnach's career vs LHP is essentially 2ish months of PAs spread over 4 years. We're talking about less than 50 PAs per season. It's a moot point, because this organization is determined to never let these guys face LHP, but it borders on self fulling prophecy territory. 

Again, 300 PAs spread over a combined 6-7 seasons between the two. Isn't pretending exactly what we're doing with Bader? Is his role not being understated? Are we not advocating for a guy who was borderline replacement level last year to get a starter-esque workload into his 30s following three seasons of decline? 

I'm fine with Larnach sitting vs. LHP, but the alternative should be somebody who can actually hit. LF defense and baserunning take a back seat when we're talking about a .570 OPS vs. low .600s OPS. I couldn't cringe any harder thinking about Bader entering the game as a PH in the 5th, then coming up in the 8th vs. a RHP with RISP.   

[NYCTK]

39 minutes ago, KirbyDome89 said:

Larnach's career vs LHP is essentially 2ish months of PAs spread over 4 years. We're talking about less than 50 PAs per season. It's a moot point, because this organization is determined to never let these guys face LHP, but it borders on self fulling prophecy territory. 

If, like Larnach, you haven't hit lhp since 2019, when does it start to become concerning? You can cry about 50 PAs being too small a sample but when do you actually force the guy to actually perform?

If he weren't also a bad fielder he'd get more chances I'm sure.

43 minutes ago, KirbyDome89 said:

Is his role not being understated? Are we not advocating for a guy who was borderline replacement level last year to get a starter-esque workload into his 30s following three seasons of decline? 

Understated? No?  He should probably play about 100 games and get 400 PAs. And if you think he was borderline replacement, well, you're just very wrong.  

If you're gonna reduce a baseball player exclusively down to OPS, we'll, you're not really appreciating the game man. 

[KirbyDome89]

13 minutes ago, NYCTK said:

If, like Larnach, you haven't hit lhp since 2019, when does it start to become concerning? You can cry about 50 PAs being too small a sample but when do you actually force the guy to actually perform?

If he weren't also a bad fielder he'd get more chances I'm sure.

Understated? No?  He should probably play about 100 games and get 400 PAs. And if you think he was borderline replacement, well, you're just very wrong.  

If you're gonna reduce a baseball player exclusively down to OPS, we'll, you're not really appreciating the game man. 

Lol "since 2019," is an interesting way to phrase it, Each subsequent year he's been either injured or predominately with the Twins who, as we've already gone over, won't let him face LHP. You have to give them a chance to perform. He can't pencil himself into the lineup, or stop his manager from sending in a PH. Ditto for Wallner. Is there some magic threshold beyond which you can be certain? 

Ok, so he's not a 4th OF. I think if you're dumping 400 PAs into a guy coming off the season Bader just had, that player should have upside, or options, or a potential future with the club. 400 PAs ties Bader for 5th most on the team last year. You have to hit if you're getting that kind of run. He's not being reduced to anything; I'm pointing out that handing that many PAs to a negative contributor is poor strategy. I can appreciate a player's ability to catch the ball while simultaneously understanding that he also has to hit it in order to maintain any surplus value. 

[NYCTK]

15 minutes ago, KirbyDome89 said:

You have to give them a chance to perform.

So his 300 PAs against LHP wasn't a chance and don't count? Pretty convenient.  

 

17 minutes ago, KirbyDome89 said:

Ok, so he's not a 4th OF.

Sounds like you just don't understand the importance of a quality 4th OF in a 162 game season. Especially for a team that has a CF made of glass .

 

25 minutes ago, KirbyDome89 said:

I'm pointing out that handing that many PAs to a negative contributor is poor strategy.

Bader is solidly above replacement and this is a team that gave 250 PAs to the much worse player Austin Martin. 

There is plenty of playing time for Bader, and he improves the team. 

[USAFChief]

1 hour ago, KirbyDome89 said:

Lol "since 2019," is an interesting way to phrase it, Each subsequent year he's been either injured or predominately with the Twins who, as we've already gone over, won't let him face LHP. You have to give them a chance to perform. He can't pencil himself into the lineup, or stop his manager from sending in a PH. Ditto for Wallner. Is there some magic threshold beyond which you can be certain? 

Ok, so he's not a 4th OF. I think if you're dumping 400 PAs into a guy coming off the season Bader just had, that player should have upside, or options, or a potential future with the club. 400 PAs ties Bader for 5th most on the team last year. You have to hit if you're getting that kind of run. He's not being reduced to anything; I'm pointing out that handing that many PAs to a negative contributor is poor strategy. I can appreciate a player's ability to catch the ball while simultaneously understanding that he also has to hit it in order to maintain any surplus value. 

All of this is not a Bader problem. 

It's a Rocco problem.

Or perhaps, if I'm feeling generous, a Rocco/Front Office problem. 

 

[TheLeviathan]

6 hours ago, KirbyDome89 said:

The "blocking," aspect is irrelevant, and it's being used as a strawman of sorts by other posters. Is Bader going to be used as a true short side platoon OF and late innings defensive replacement/pinch runner, or are we going to see him getting starts in the corner vs. RHP + CF on Buxton rest days as well as entering games early (5th inning on) as a PH? 

How long will the least be with that $7M price tag? Again, E-Rod or whoever aren't even part of this discussion. How many PAs will this team feed to a glove only OF in the name of "depth," or defensive flexibility? Is this team actually going to discard a vet they've spent that type of money on?

Agreed, we should be fair, but the issue seems to be his idealized role vs. reality. 

Look, I can't help how they pinch hit.  That's an issue whether it's Bader or Kiersey or Martin.  So I'm not sure how that applies as a criticism of Bader.  As for CF - he should be starting in CF anytime Buxton isn't.  That's basically the main reason he has a role on this team.  (And why I think the signing was right)  We don't have any other legitimate major league centerfielders, certainly not any that are good at playing it.

As for how many ABs...I don't know.  Unfortunately, his defense I think buys him a lot of time until they can either acquire a replacement or one magically springs up out of the farm.  (Which...I don't know about you...but do you see a guy who can do that?  I don't.)

My issue with this is people are misdirecting their anger I think.  They're mad we don't have better, younger, cheaper options.  Totally fair complaint.  But....the FO would be fools to roll into the season with Byron Brittle Buxton in CF and no capable defensive backup.  That or they're mad at the way the team substitutes.  Also legit...I share that.  Bader or not...they're doing it.  So at least with Bader we have a guy with some history of hitting LHP and brings a known quantity in his glove.

So I guess that's where I'm at....it seems like misdirected frustration leading to less than fair arguments.

[KirbyDome89]

1 hour ago, NYCTK said:

So his 300 PAs against LHP wasn't a chance and don't count? Pretty convenient.  

 

Sounds like you just don't understand the importance of a quality 4th OF in a 162 game season. Especially for a team that has a CF made of glass .

 

Bader is solidly above replacement and this is a team that gave 250 PAs to the much worse player Austin Martin. 

There is plenty of playing time for Bader, and he improves the team. 

His? 300 is the combined number of career PAs between the two....

Speaking of convenient, Bader is back to being a 4th OF now? You just said you want/expect him to finish with enough PAs to put him in the top 5 from last season. I understand that locking yourself into that many PAs of a below average at best hitter isn't a great idea. Happy to be wrong though...

Austin Martin outhit Bader last year. I know you hate him, and yes his OF defense was brutal, but for all his warts, rookie Austin Martin outhit Harrison Bader, the same Harrison Bader you're hoping gets 400 PAs.   

[KirbyDome89]

52 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

Look, I can't help how they pinch hit.  That's an issue whether it's Bader or Kiersey or Martin.  So I'm not sure how that applies as a criticism of Bader.  As for CF - he should be starting in CF anytime Buxton isn't.  That's basically the main reason he has a role on this team.  (And why I think the signing was right)  We don't have any other legitimate major league centerfielders, certainly not any that are good at playing it.

As for how many ABs...I don't know.  Unfortunately, his defense I think buys him a lot of time until they can either acquire a replacement or one magically springs up out of the farm.  (Which...I don't know about you...but do you see a guy who can do that?  I don't.)

My issue with this is people are misdirecting their anger I think.  They're mad we don't have better, younger, cheaper options.  Totally fair complaint.  But....the FO would be fools to roll into the season with Byron Brittle Buxton in CF and no capable defensive backup.  That or they're mad at the way the team substitutes.  Also legit...I share that.  Bader or not...they're doing it.  So at least with Bader we have a guy with some history of hitting LHP and brings a known quantity in his glove.

So I guess that's where I'm at....it seems like misdirected frustration leading to less than fair arguments.

You answered your own question. His salary probably more than his defense will buy him time. 

Bader hasn't hit for  3 seasons, and two of those three he wasn't good against LHP either. Is this the lefty bounce back year, or is he almost/already cooked? Eh, Idk if I'd call the angst misplaced. This organization seeks out this type of player. Like I said, it's idealized role vs. reality. I don't begrudge Bader for accepting the contract, but I don't for one second believe he'll be utilized as an actual 4th OF, or that this organization will move on if/when his presence at the bottom of the lineup starts to become an albatross. 

[KirbyDome89]

1 hour ago, USAFChief said:

All of this is not a Bader problem. 

It's a Rocco problem.

Or perhaps, if I'm feeling generous, a Rocco/Front Office problem. 

 

Concur, square peg round hole yada yada, but that doesn't change the fact this FO sought out Harrison Bader for a specific role, one which I don't believe he's capable of actually filling. 

[NYCTK]

56 minutes ago, KirbyDome89 said:

His? 300 is the combined number of career PAs between the two....

And he's not hit lefties since 2019. 

58 minutes ago, KirbyDome89 said:

Bader is back to being a 4th OF now? You just said you want/expect him to finish with enough PAs to put him in the top 5 from last season.

Was Buxton the 4th OF last season? That tells you how dumb I think this question is. And I'm obviously guessing. Maybe it's 350. Maybe Buxton is incredibly healthy and it's 220. Why get fixated on this? 

1 hour ago, KirbyDome89 said:

Austin Martin outhit Bader last year. I know you hate him, and yes his OF defense was brutal, but for all his warts, rookie Austin Martin outhit Harrison Bader, the same Harrison Bader you're hoping gets 400 PAs.   

Great. Let me know when OF no longer need to play the OF and then this is relevant. 

[NYCTK]

42 minutes ago, KirbyDome89 said:

Bader hasn't hit for  3 seasons

You people are so hyperfixated on half the game. Was Ozzie Smith a bad player in your eyes? 

[Aerodeliria]

Don't get me wrong, but landing Bader and France feels a lot more like a double-shot of Margot than a double-shot of Nelson Cruz...

I'd be stunned if either of these guys even raise an eyebrow let alone the ceiling...

What's worse is that as a couple of TD contributors have mentioned, we'll probably hang on to them for the whole season rather than DFN them...

[TheLeviathan]

9 hours ago, KirbyDome89 said:

You answered your own question. His salary probably more than his defense will buy him time. 

Bader hasn't hit for  3 seasons, and two of those three he wasn't good against LHP either. Is this the lefty bounce back year, or is he almost/already cooked? Eh, Idk if I'd call the angst misplaced. This organization seeks out this type of player. Like I said, it's idealized role vs. reality. I don't begrudge Bader for accepting the contract, but I don't for one second believe he'll be utilized as an actual 4th OF, or that this organization will move on if/when his presence at the bottom of the lineup starts to become an albatross. 

The utilization is a function of organizational philosophy.  His spot will get that usage, be it him or Austin Martin.  So the complaint is misplaced IMO.

To me it's simple: Buxton is the starting CF.  As of two weeks ago plan B was Martin.  If (when) Buck gets hurt that plan is the kind that gets your entire season sunk.  It's the kind of contigency that doesn't require hindsight in August to see needed to be addressed.

Does it suck we always fish in these flawed waters to plug those holes?  Absolutely.....but it would've been roster malfeasance to walk in to the season without a better Plan B.  And yes, Bader quite clearly represents a better Plan B.

[Riverbrian]

12 hours ago, TheLeviathan said:

Look, I can't help how they pinch hit.  That's an issue whether it's Bader or Kiersey or Martin.  So I'm not sure how that applies as a criticism of Bader.  As for CF - he should be starting in CF anytime Buxton isn't.  That's basically the main reason he has a role on this team.  (And why I think the signing was right)  We don't have any other legitimate major league centerfielders, certainly not any that are good at playing it.

As for how many ABs...I don't know.  Unfortunately, his defense I think buys him a lot of time until they can either acquire a replacement or one magically springs up out of the farm.  (Which...I don't know about you...but do you see a guy who can do that?  I don't.)

My issue with this is people are misdirecting their anger I think.  They're mad we don't have better, younger, cheaper options.  Totally fair complaint.  But....the FO would be fools to roll into the season with Byron Brittle Buxton in CF and no capable defensive backup.  That or they're mad at the way the team substitutes.  Also legit...I share that.  Bader or not...they're doing it.  So at least with Bader we have a guy with some history of hitting LHP and brings a known quantity in his glove.

So I guess that's where I'm at....it seems like misdirected frustration leading to less than fair arguments.

If I understand this post correctly and I think I do. 

We have no argument. I 100% understand that Bader checks boxes in regards to organizational philosophy. I knew that him or someone like him was coming based on organizational philosophy.

Capable defensive CF when Buxton is hurt, the DH or getting a maintenance day... Check.

Someone with some speed on a team that is well below average in that department... check...

And of course... Someone who will prevent Wallner from facing left handers. Check. 

Mad... Nope... Knew it was coming. France as well. Knew it was coming. Check... Check. I've been saying this was coming for quite some time.

As Jocko pointed out... It's all I've been saying for quite some time and I know it's all I've got because this thing controls our roster construction and nothing else really matters. It's why he is here. I want off this merry go round... I know why they are doing this... you know why they are doing this. It's not Bader that I'm railing against. It's the self created need for Bader and the 6.25 million spent because they self created this need. 

Mad? Nope... Resigned to it is what I am. I just got done reading an article in the local paper. It says "The Twins are going to spend this spring getting Bader reintroduced to Left Field". Yep... of course they are. 

There was a reason they were looking for right handed hitters and not left handed hitters with only two left handed hitters guaranteed to make the 26 man roster. 

When Chief asks me why I'm not demanding a new front office. It's a fair question. How did we get here? 

[USAFChief]

8 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

If I understand this post correctly and I think I do. 

We have no argument. I 100% understand that Bader checks boxes in regards to organizational philosophy. I knew that him or someone like him was coming based on organizational philosophy.

Capable defensive CF when Buxton is hurt, the DH or getting a maintenance day... Check.

Someone with some speed on a team that is well below average in that department... check...

And of course... Someone who will prevent Wallner from facing left handers. Check. 

Mad... Nope... Knew it was coming. France as well. Knew it was coming. Check... Check. I've been saying this was coming for quite some time.

As Jocko pointed out... It's all I've been saying for quite some time and I know it's all I've got because this thing controls our roster construction and nothing else really matters. It's why he is heere. I want off this merry go round how dog this... you know why they are doing this. It's not Bader that I'm railing against. It's the self created need for Bader and the 6.25 million spent because they self created this need. 

Mad? Nope... Resigned to it, I just got done reading an article in the local paper. It says "The Twins are going to spend this spring getting Bader reintroduced to Left Field". Yep... of course they are. 

There was a reason they were looking for right handed hitters and not left handed hitters with only two left handed hitters guaranteed to make the 26 man roster. 

When Chief asks me why I'm not demanding a new front office. It's a fair question. How did we get here? 

At least if he's playing LF it's probably for Larnach instead of Wallner.

 

[Riverbrian]

35 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

At least if he's playing LF it's probably for Larnach instead of Wallner.

 

Yeah but...  France will be here to cover the other... If France doesn't make the team... It'll be Martin or Miranda. 

Wallner and Larnach are the key to getting out of this thing. Wallner and Larnach are also the key to being stuck in this thing. 

[TheLeviathan]

11 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

Yeah but...  France will be here to cover the other... If France doesn't make the team... It'll be Martin or Miranda. 

Wallner and Larnach are the key to getting out of this thing. Wallner and Larnach are also the key to being stuck in this thing. 

To combine your two posts, I share your frustrations.  I just can't level them at Bader because I think it would be FO malfeasance not to add someone for that role.

France - every at-bat he takes from Wallner, Larnach, Miranda, or the guy selling beers in LF will piss me off.

[Riverbrian]

1 hour ago, TheLeviathan said:

To combine your two posts, I share your frustrations.  I just can't level them at Bader because I think it would be FO malfeasance not to add someone for that role.

France - every at-bat he takes from Wallner, Larnach, Miranda, or the guy selling beers in LF will piss me off.

And this means that we are in agreement.

I'm not leveling my frustrations at Bader. If the Twins are going to operate how they operate and they are going to operate how they operate. Bader checks boxes.

I just think it's FO malfeasance to be in the position of needing what Bader represents and it is going to repeat itself... the team has committed to the bit. We are going to spend another X amount of millions next year just to find a replacement for Bader in 2026 to avoid the same FO malfeasance next year that you are talking about this year.

This train isn't going to stop because if Wallner is kept away from left handers this year for the third year in a row. What's going to change in the 4th year? Oh... He's ready now. Nope... he will require Margot/Bader/Connor Joe. It won't stop until they just stop doing this.

We have two left handers practically guaranteed to make the roster. Why don't we spend that 6 million on someone who bats left handed instead. You won't hear me complain as loud if they did that... but you and I both know that they are searching for right handed bats despite having right handed bats all over the place. 

I can't (won't) go down the rabbit hole of specific names. I realize that the discussion and subjective opinions of certain players is the lifeblood of forums like this one but... it doesn't seem to matter how many times I say... It's not Bader specifically... I still got some guy from New York City with no idea what I'm saying. Bader is great... Martin sucks. Well... that's it then... Go see Joe Pohlad and whip out the check book and pay that 6.25 million I guess there is nobody else on the planet. Keirsay is the only option and he sucks... well that's it then... go see Joe Pohlad and whip out that check book. The end of creativity as we know it and I feel fine. 

Ash calls it a stupidity tax... he's right... can't produce a catcher who can OPS .575. Well... Go see Joe Pohland and whip out that check book and pay 30 million for Vazquez. Can't find that CF who can OPS .657 and catch the baseball. Go see Joe Pohland and whip out that check book. Want to spend some money on someone bigger that doesn't need to be platooned... someone who can join Correa, Buxton and Lewis as actual talent at the plate. Go see Joe Pohlad but guess what... he's saying no because we already spent 16 million filling holes with low bar guys that someone making the minimum could replicate.  

All of us should know by now... the Twins can't afford to pay for players developed by other organizations... As much as this board gets worked up over the Pohlads... We know... we all know that they won't pay for players developed by other organizations. Unfortunately... It turns out that the best we can do... is develop a Wallner who requires a 6.25 million dollar player to stand along side of him... a 6.25 million dollar player developed by another organization. Keep the low bar coming... don't stop. Grab an innings eater while you are at it.  

Signing Bader may actually help us this year. The front office thinks he will help us. I won't argue... He check the boxes... We may squeeze some drops of lemon juice out of this lemon this year. However... Eventually we will all be looking at a lemon carcass.  

[NYCTK]

42 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

Martin sucks

Correct.

I get your frustration, and I don't know the reasons why, but the Twins haven't produced a good fielder since Buxton and Kepler. 

Larnach Wallner and Martin are all iffy to downright bad. There's no reason to think Keirsey was a plus defender in CF. Julien, Lewis, and even Lee (so far) all disappointments. Kiriloff and Miranda, oofda. 

You can wish they could but they haven't and while everyone else is discussing the reality of the current state of the organization, looking to the 2025 season, you're here talking as if they just wished harder everything would be roses and they wouldn't need to bring in a valuable player that improves the team. 

[NYCTK]

54 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

We may squeeze some drops of lemon juice out of this lemon this year.

And you can say you don't hate Bader all you want but when you and others are talking like this or lamenting the fact he can't be optioned, that's more telling. 

Man up and tell the truth if you hate the player. I think Austin Martin sucks and I'm obviously not shy about it. 

[Linus]

57 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

And this means that we are in agreement.

I'm not leveling my frustrations at Bader. If the Twins are going to operate how they operate and they are going to operate how they operate. Bader checks boxes.

I just think it's FO malfeasance to be in the position of needing what Bader represents and it is going to repeat itself... the team has committed to the bit. We are going to spend another X amount of millions next year just to find a replacement for Bader in 2026 to avoid the same FO malfeasance next year that you are talking about this year.

This train isn't going to stop because if Wallner is kept away from left handers this year for the third year in a row. What's going to change in the 4th year? Oh... He's ready now. Nope... he will require Margot/Bader/Connor Joe. It won't stop until they just stop doing this.

We have two left handers practically guaranteed to make the roster. Why don't we spend that 6 million on someone who bats left handed instead. You won't hear me complain as loud if they did that... but you and I both know that they are searching for right handed bats despite having right handed bats all over the place. 

I can't (won't) go down the rabbit hole of specific names. I realize that the discussion and subjective opinions of certain players is the lifeblood of forums like this one but... it doesn't seem to matter how many times I say... It's not Bader specifically... I still got some guy from New York City with no idea what I'm saying. Bader is great... Martin sucks. Well... that's it then... Go see Joe Pohlad and whip out the check book and pay that 6.25 million I guess there is nobody else on the planet. Keirsay is the only option and he sucks... well that's it then... go see Joe Pohlad and whip out that check book. The end of creativity as we know it and I feel fine. 

Ash calls it a stupidity tax... he's right... can't produce a catcher who can OPS .575. Well... Go see Joe Pohland and whip out that check book and pay 30 million for Vazquez. Can't find that CF who can OPS .657 and catch the baseball. Go see Joe Pohland and whip out that check book. Want to spend some money on someone bigger that doesn't need to be platooned... someone who can join Correa, Buxton and Lewis as actual talent at the plate. Go see Joe Pohlad but guess what... he's saying no because we already spent 16 million filling holes with low bar guys that someone making the minimum could replicate.  

All of us should know by now... the Twins can't afford to pay for players developed by other organizations... As much as this board gets worked up over the Pohlads... We know... we all know that they won't pay for players developed by other organizations. Unfortunately... It turns out that the best we can do... is develop a Wallner who requires a 6.25 million dollar player to stand along side of him... a 6.25 million dollar player developed by another organization. Keep the low bar coming... don't stop. Grab an innings eater while you are at it.  

Signing Bader may actually help us this year. The front office thinks he will help us. I won't argue... He check the boxes... We may squeeze some drops of lemon juice out of this lemon this year. However... Eventually we will all be looking at a lemon carcass.  

Of all the comments on this topic this sums it up best for me.  And as much as I try to stay neutral on Falvey the actual results after 9 years is just not going to cut it.

[TheLeviathan]

1 hour ago, Riverbrian said:

And this means that we are in agreement.

I'm not leveling my frustrations at Bader. If the Twins are going to operate how they operate and they are going to operate how they operate. Bader checks boxes.

I just think it's FO malfeasance to be in the position of needing what Bader represents and it is going to repeat itself... the team has committed to the bit. We are going to spend another X amount of millions next year just to find a replacement for Bader in 2026 to avoid the same FO malfeasance next year that you are talking about this year.

This train isn't going to stop because if Wallner is kept away from left handers this year for the third year in a row. What's going to change in the 4th year? Oh... He's ready now. Nope... he will require Margot/Bader/Connor Joe. It won't stop until they just stop doing this.

We have two left handers practically guaranteed to make the roster. Why don't we spend that 6 million on someone who bats left handed instead. You won't hear me complain as loud if they did that... but you and I both know that they are searching for right handed bats despite having right handed bats all over the place. 

I can't (won't) go down the rabbit hole of specific names. I realize that the discussion and subjective opinions of certain players is the lifeblood of forums like this one but... it doesn't seem to matter how many times I say... It's not Bader specifically... I still got some guy from New York City with no idea what I'm saying. Bader is great... Martin sucks. Well... that's it then... Go see Joe Pohlad and whip out the check book and pay that 6.25 million I guess there is nobody else on the planet. Keirsay is the only option and he sucks... well that's it then... go see Joe Pohlad and whip out that check book. The end of creativity as we know it and I feel fine. 

Ash calls it a stupidity tax... he's right... can't produce a catcher who can OPS .575. Well... Go see Joe Pohland and whip out that check book and pay 30 million for Vazquez. Can't find that CF who can OPS .657 and catch the baseball. Go see Joe Pohland and whip out that check book. Want to spend some money on someone bigger that doesn't need to be platooned... someone who can join Correa, Buxton and Lewis as actual talent at the plate. Go see Joe Pohlad but guess what... he's saying no because we already spent 16 million filling holes with low bar guys that someone making the minimum could replicate.  

All of us should know by now... the Twins can't afford to pay for players developed by other organizations... As much as this board gets worked up over the Pohlads... We know... we all know that they won't pay for players developed by other organizations. Unfortunately... It turns out that the best we can do... is develop a Wallner who requires a 6.25 million dollar player to stand along side of him... a 6.25 million dollar player developed by another organization. Keep the low bar coming... don't stop. Grab an innings eater while you are at it.  

Signing Bader may actually help us this year. The front office thinks he will help us. I won't argue... He check the boxes... We may squeeze some drops of lemon juice out of this lemon this year. However... Eventually we will all be looking at a lemon carcass.  

I'm torn.  I don't like the archetypes we draft for offense, though I like that we target offense early.  I don't like that our young players always seem to be lesser defenders than I expect them to be given their athleticism and pedigree.  On the flip side - the pitching pipeline does seem to be up and running.

But all teams have to patch holes in their roster that the farm system fails to produce.  I'm just fully on board with this patch.  That's where I think some of the disconnect is, even if we largely agree.