Tigers 4, Twins 3: Bailey Ober Good, Bullpen and Defense Let Twins Down Late

[Jocko87]

1 hour ago, DJL44 said:

I like Okert, he's been good and they control him for two more seasons after this one. They didn't give Nick Gordon away for nothing.

I do too and was stunned they got so much for Gordon. It seemed obvious that the Twins would be forced to cut him eventually so they could have waited. He's got value, just not to the Twins.

[bean5302]

15 hours ago, Jocko87 said:

Fair. If you can find a serious discussion on keeping Gordon over any of the mentioned individuals at the time I'd read it.  In the meantime, Gordon is still who we thought he was. 

 

15 hours ago, jorgenswest said:

There was plenty of discussion in January through his trade where I pointed out that he was projected to be the better hitter than the other utility options and had posted RAA’s of 0 at his various positions since 2022...

...As for the “we” I am not sure that there is one opinion on who we thought he was. I see an inexpensive player that can play several positions with four years of control and a projected OPS against right handed pitching of .726. I would not have tendered Farmer and planned on rostering Gordon...

 

I absolutely agree with @jorgenswest. I'd have kept Gordon over Farmer/Margot and it's not remotely close. Gordon's batted ball profile suggested he certainly wasn't great in the SSS, but he was quite unlucky in his brief 2023 stint. wRC+ 119 is just about exactly where Gordon was in 2022 (111).

Saving $9MM by keeping Gordon + Martin on the opening day roster vs. Farmer + Margot takes a big chunk out of the cost of improving the rotation, and that's how the front office should have been handling the budget crunch, IMHO.

Gordon seems to be at least adequate as a utility guy with a league minimum salary.

[bean5302]

Note: Bailey Ober #1 starter last year would have been legit for a short period... if Maeda wasn't in the rotation as well.
Ober vs. Maeda (after IL) last 6 starts through 7/24/23
2.92 ERA, 3.63 FIP, 4.20 xFIP Ober
vs.
2.48 ERA, 2.77 FIP, 3.34 xFIP Maeda

[Jocko87]

4 minutes ago, bean5302 said:

 

I absolutely agree with @jorgenswest. I'd have kept Gordon over Farmer/Margot and it's not remotely close. Gordon's batted ball profile suggested he certainly wasn't great in the SSS, but he was quite unlucky in his brief 2023 stint. wRC+ 119 is just about exactly where Gordon was in 2022 (111).

Saving $9MM by keeping Gordon + Martin on the opening day roster vs. Farmer + Margot takes a big chunk out of the cost of improving the rotation, and that's how the front office should have been handling the budget crunch, IMHO.

Gordon seems to be at least adequate as a utility guy with a league minimum salary.

Are you playing him in the infield? Multiple coaching staffs seem to agree that's a bad idea.

When you evaluate him as an outfielder only, the equation changes dramatically. Then refer to the previous list of LH outfield bats ahead of him.

[bean5302]

Just now, Jocko87 said:

Are you playing him in the infield? Multiple coaching staffs seem to agree that's a bad idea.

When you evaluate him as an outfielder only, the equation changes dramatically. Then refer to the previous list of LH outfield bats ahead of him.

Really? Why was the he opening day 2B for the Twins last year? Graded out neutral at SS/2B for his career. OAA, UZR/150, whatever metric you like.

[David Maro]

This one is on the manager,Theibar should not have been brought into the game.He needed to get settled before pitching in this game.And can someone tell me why Wallner is still not back in St.Paul.The only ball he hit was a 61 mph cookie in the middle of the zone.This is starting to look like a long season already,and it is April.

[Jocko87]

1 hour ago, bean5302 said:

Really? Why was the he opening day 2B for the Twins last year? Graded out neutral at SS/2B for his career. OAA, UZR/150, whatever metric you like.

Ahh, the opening day with a myriad of trades, injuries, starting pitcher combination to get him a desperation start. Only to be hit for/defensively replaced by Farmer in a tight game. Of the 8 whole starts he got at 2B he was able to finish 4 of them.  He didn't touch the infield for a month before he got hurt.

Quote any defensive statistics you like, just know they are more effected by small sample size than most considering they aren't terribly effective in the first place.

Gordon has a small sample size for a reason. This is one of those times where the coaches tell you before the data does. That he doesn't have an infield appearance with the Marlins and their stellar infield defense tells me that they agree with Rocco and Co.  Perennial unobtainium glove candidate Luis Arraez is holding off Gordon at 2B.

This was not a discussion I thought was serious at the start but holy cow.

[joefish]

I am finding that all of this versatility and utility to be a weakness. 

I look forward to CC and Royce getting us back to stability, if Rocco can manage that.

[RpR]

2 hours ago, joefish said:

I am finding that all of this versatility and utility to be a weakness. 

I look forward to CC and Royce getting us back to stability, if Rocco can manage that.

Lewis has had two at bats; don't put all your apples in one basket.

Until the Twins at least reach the Mendoza line as a whole, it will not get better.

[ashbury]

2 hours ago, RpR said:

Lewis has had one at bat

You are off by 100%.  😀

[RpR]

19 minutes ago, ashbury said:

You are off by 100%.  😀

OOPS -- 2 at bats.

[bean5302]

8 hours ago, Jocko87 said:

Ahh, the opening day with a myriad of trades, injuries, starting pitcher combination to get him a desperation start. Only to be hit for/defensively replaced by Farmer in a tight game. Of the 8 whole starts he got at 2B he was able to finish 4 of them.  He didn't touch the infield for a month before he got hurt.

Quote any defensive statistics you like, just know they are more effected by small sample size than most considering they aren't terribly effective in the first place.

Gordon has a small sample size for a reason. This is one of those times where the coaches tell you before the data does. That he doesn't have an infield appearance with the Marlins and their stellar infield defense tells me that they agree with Rocco and Co.  Perennial unobtainium glove candidate Luis Arraez is holding off Gordon at 2B.

This was not a discussion I thought was serious at the start but holy cow.

Statistics say Nick Gordon seems to be a perfectly acceptable backup utility infielder/outfielder based on actual results, and he's cheap. The price you want for a backup utility infielder when the team is on a tight budget.

Your response "statistics, logics, facts, and reason do not matter to me because they do not match my opinion!"

[Jocko87]

7 hours ago, bean5302 said:

Statistics say Nick Gordon seems to be a perfectly acceptable backup utility infielder/outfielder based on actual results, and he's cheap. The price you want for a backup utility infielder when the team is on a tight budget.

Your response "statistics, logics, facts, and reason do not matter to me because they do not match my opinion!"

Yeah, that's pretty much exactly what I said. Did you even read it?

Every avaliable data point disagrees with you except the cheap part.

With your reading comprehension this willfully bad I'm going to assume you are trolling and disengage but I'll be keenly tuned for the next time Nick Gordon puts on an infield glove for any reason.