2023 Vikings Regular Season Thread

[Aggies7]

54 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

KoC noncommittal at QB for the next game, and he considered benching Dobbs last night ....

The great mystery is why he was trying to make him be a pocket passer all night when he so obviously can’t be. The perfect time to roll him out and give him a RPO was the drive after the fumble. Instead of running into a brick wall twice and then throwing a pass with almost zero chance of even getting enough yardage for a first down or closer FG try. That last series of downs was criminal negligence on his part. Trying to bleed the clock with 3:40 left 

[nicksaviking]

14 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

The great mystery is why he was trying to make him be a pocket passer all night when he so obviously can’t be. The perfect time to roll him out and give him a RPO was the drive after the fumble. Instead of running into a brick wall twice and then throwing a pass with almost zero chance of even getting enough yardage for a first down or closer FG try. That last series of downs was criminal negligence on his part. Trying to bleed the clock with 3:40 left 

I was upset about him not rolling out too, but then I remembered how often I complained about O'Neill getting destroyed. Rolling out to the right side probably would have had him getting smoked by Montez Sweat and the OLBs all night too. Rolling out left and throwing across his body may have turned out even worse.

But rolling out or not, KOC completely gave up on that last series. They just needed one first down and they didn't even try to get it.

[Aggies7]

The NFL has a problem with quarterbacks.

Its amazing to me that, considering all the people that play football,(estimated to be about 5 million/year) from pee wee up through the pros, only a handful of guys can play the position competently at the NFL level. How many decent starting qbs are there in the nfl? A dozen? 15? Imagine any other profession having that few competent people who can do the job. 

A contact sport that relies so heavily on one position for a team’s success or failure is not good. No other sports relies so heavily on one position. And the drop off between the starter and the back up is immense. The difference between a Dobbs and a Cousins when it comes to passing is huge. I don’t know how the NFL fixes the problem, I don’t think it can. But it is a problem.

[Mike Sixel]

19 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

The NFL has a problem with quarterbacks.

Its amazing to me that, considering all the people that play football,(estimated to be about 5 million/year) from pee wee up through the pros, only a handful of guys can play the position competently at the NFL level. How many decent starting qbs are there in the nfl? A dozen? 15? Imagine any other profession having that few competent people who can do the job. 

A contact sport that relies so heavily on one position for a team’s success or failure is not good. No other sports relies so heavily on one position. And the drop off between the starter and the back up is immense. The difference between a Dobbs and a Cousins when it comes to passing is huge. I don’t know how the NFL fixes the problem, I don’t think it can. But it is a problem.

Ya, that was kind of my point above....Dobbs might be one of the 50 best people on the planet at what he does, and it doesn't matter at all. That's kind of mind boggling, really.

[Parfigliano]

51 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

The NFL has a problem with quarterbacks.

Its amazing to me that, considering all the people that play football,(estimated to be about 5 million/year) from pee wee up through the pros, only a handful of guys can play the position competently at the NFL level. How many decent starting qbs are there in the nfl? A dozen? 15? Imagine any other profession having that few competent people who can do the job. 

A contact sport that relies so heavily on one position for a team’s success or failure is not good. No other sports relies so heavily on one position. And the drop off between the starter and the back up is immense. The difference between a Dobbs and a Cousins when it comes to passing is huge. I don’t know how the NFL fixes the problem, I don’t think it can. But it is a problem.

No problem.  Pretty boys that cant get hit is the so called probkem.

 

 

[Aggies7]

18 minutes ago, Parfigliano said:

No problem.  Pretty boys that cant get hit is the so called probkem.

 

 

I mean, it was ok to whack quarterbacks in the 70s when teams threw 18 passes a game. I don’t really care to watch backups attempt to play quarterback. It’s bad football

[Mike Sixel]

22 minutes ago, Parfigliano said:

No problem.  Pretty boys that cant get hit is the so called probkem.

 

 

this is a really stupid post. Have you watched these guys get drilled, from age 10-35? Come on. You get hit by a 350 pound guy and let me know how it goes.

[Parfigliano]

1 hour ago, Mike Sixel said:

this is a really stupid post. Have you watched these guys get drilled, from age 10-35? Come on. You get hit by a 350 pound guy and let me know how it goes.

Im guessing it goes about 8 or more million in my bank account.

[Vanimal46]

2 hours ago, Aggies7 said:

The NFL has a problem with quarterbacks.

Its amazing to me that, considering all the people that play football,(estimated to be about 5 million/year) from pee wee up through the pros, only a handful of guys can play the position competently at the NFL level. How many decent starting qbs are there in the nfl? A dozen? 15? Imagine any other profession having that few competent people who can do the job. 

A contact sport that relies so heavily on one position for a team’s success or failure is not good. No other sports relies so heavily on one position. And the drop off between the starter and the back up is immense. The difference between a Dobbs and a Cousins when it comes to passing is huge. I don’t know how the NFL fixes the problem, I don’t think it can. But it is a problem.

That's always been the case in the NFL. A dozen or so QBs that matter, and a revolving door of QBs for the rest of the league. Football is cyclical, and teams will opt back into a powerful running game when they continue to fail finding a QB worth a damn. 

[Aggies7]

1 hour ago, Vanimal46 said:

That's always been the case in the NFL. A dozen or so QBs that matter, and a revolving door of QBs for the rest of the league. Football is cyclical, and teams will opt back into a powerful running game when they continue to fail finding a QB worth a damn. 

I think that’s the big difference lately though: such a reliance on the passing game that you really don’t have a realistic shot if your QB goes down. At least in the older days you could lean on a run game. But not now. The bengals season was over the minute burrow went down. Same way with cousins/vikings and Rodgers/jets. Seasons were done the second they went down. 
 

It’s just tough when the health of one position out of 22 guys on the field controls the fate of every team. 

[Vanimal46]

42 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

The bengals season was over the minute burrow went down.

I'll argue at least for the Bengals in your examples, that Burrow hides so many warts in that organization, including bad coaching. I read a stat before the Sunday games that Zac Taylor is 4-28 as a HC in games that Burrow is out. 

[Parfigliano]

10 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

My more rational thoughts, after the Bears fiasco (raather than the emotional ones during it).

1. Dobbs is a backup. Heck, he might be a starter for some team. But he's not a good NFL QB. He's probably in the top 25-45 on the planet, but that's not good enough to win in the NFL. He's slow to make decisions, and his ball placement is bad.

2. KOC .... still can't manage the clock and is too conservative at the end of games. I'm not sure how good he is yet, at OC stuff. The fact this team, as is, and with these TOs is 6-6 shows he's likely a good HC. He might follow the Parcell's track, get fired, and be better the second time. That largely depends on them getting a legit QB next year.

3. Cousins is making millions watching these games. Either in MN or elsewhere. I still think someone else gives him 3 years, and the Vikings won't, though.

4. I have no idea what Flores was doing at the end of the game. But, let's be real. The D has like 4 legit NFL starters on the roster. I mean, Barr and Day played A LOT....they weren't even employed 1-2 weeks ago.

5. Risner is NOT the answer at all. The OL looked overmatched last night, and I don't know why.

6. Mattison showed if there is any hole, he is a good number 2. 

7. They need to draft a QB in round 1. I'm guessing it is Nix if they only win 7 games, or Penix or the LSU QB if they win more.

8. Back to KoC......something is JUST off on his play calling, imo. But, he's in year 2 in his job, and I'm not giving up on him. At least he's making less stupid challenges.

9. If Jefferson says "I want out, not signing", and I HATE THIS, I trade him . Not trading Hunter is going to hurt when the gets one of the biggest FA deals for a DE (can they tag him again, I think not?). 

They are not gonna do any off that.  They should.  They wont.

[nicksaviking]

5 hours ago, Parfigliano said:

Im guessing it goes about 8 or more million in my bank account.

This is all foolishness. Tom Brady is my age. No matter how much money I made, I’d still be in the hospital if I took any number of hits he somehow got back up from. Thiesman never came back from his broken leg, but Rodgers and Cousins should play without an achilles? Burrow should throw without wrist ligaments? How? Rethink your take.
 

And any of these “Old school players were tougher” whines is complete crap. Dick Butkus and Alan Paige wouldn’t even make a DII college team these days. Everyone trying to kill the QB is exponentially faster and stronger than they used to be. Players have been able to develop better muscles, but no one is developing better bones, ligaments or brains.

[nicksaviking]

4 hours ago, Vanimal46 said:

That's always been the case in the NFL. A dozen or so QBs that matter, and a revolving door of QBs for the rest of the league. Football is cyclical, and teams will opt back into a powerful running game when they continue to fail finding a QB worth a damn. 

Life finds a way. Unlike the MLB the NFL constantly evolves. 

[Parfigliano]

Didnt Page win a MVP and sit on The Minnesota Supreme Court?

[nicksaviking]

8 hours ago, Parfigliano said:

Didnt Page win a MVP and sit on The Minnesota Supreme Court?

As a 240 lb defensive tackle. What's your point?

[Vanimal46]

9 hours ago, nicksaviking said:

Life finds a way. Unlike the MLB the NFL constantly evolves. 

The NFL will keep tweaking the rules to get the results they're looking for. The pendulum is swinging too far in favor of passing offense. 20 years ago we had crazy results rushing the ball with Ladanian Tomlinson, Shaun Alexander, and Priest Holmes getting 20+ TDs in a season. I think running the ball will be cool again in the future. 

[Mike Sixel]

56 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

The NFL will keep tweaking the rules to get the results they're looking for. The pendulum is swinging too far in favor of passing offense. 20 years ago we had crazy results rushing the ball with Ladanian Tomlinson, Shaun Alexander, and Priest Holmes getting 20+ TDs in a season. I think running the ball will be cool again in the future. 

Tennessee has tried that strategy, and was close for a while. I think a great defense, great running game, and ok passing could win again, but it's not been done......

[Aggies7]

1 hour ago, Mike Sixel said:

Tennessee has tried that strategy, and was close for a while. I think a great defense, great running game, and ok passing could win again, but it's not been done......

It could win but hard to compete going up against an elite passing team that can score quickly. You get down by two touchdowns as a run first team and it’s awfully hard to come back 

[Danchat]

5 hours ago, Vanimal46 said:

The NFL will keep tweaking the rules to get the results they're looking for. The pendulum is swinging too far in favor of passing offense. 20 years ago we had crazy results rushing the ball with Ladanian Tomlinson, Shaun Alexander, and Priest Holmes getting 20+ TDs in a season. I think running the ball will be cool again in the future. 

I think part of the problem is that defensive lines are generally better than offensive lines these days, preventing good RBs from being great ones. The upside of a passing play is just so much higher than a run play, breaking a long run is rare while completing a deep pass happens at least once per game... not to mention you can get a DPI and get a bunch of free yardage. It's gonna take better O-linemen and more favorable rules to let the running game become more dominant.

[Parfigliano]

21 hours ago, Aggies7 said:

I mean, it was ok to whack quarterbacks in the 70s when teams threw 18 passes a game. I don’t really care to watch backups attempt to play quarterback. It’s bad football

Was Fran Tarke...a back up?

[Parfigliano]

14 hours ago, nicksaviking said:

This is all foolishness. Tom Brady is my age. No matter how much money I made, I’d still be in the hospital if I took any number of hits he somehow got back up from. Thiesman never came back from his broken leg, but Rodgers and Cousins should play without an achilles? Burrow should throw without wrist ligaments? How? Rethink your take.
 

And any of these “Old school players were tougher” whines is complete crap. Dick Butkus and Alan Paige wouldn’t even make a DII college team these days. Everyone trying to kill the QB is exponentially faster and stronger than they used to be. Players have been able to develop better muscles, but no one is developing better bones, ligaments or brains.

Alan Page developed a brain.  MN Supreme Court 

[gunnarthor]

On the QB issue, some of it (maybe a lot of it) is probably on coaching. Jalen Hurts is awesome but what if he was in Carolina? He's not even top 10 in yards or rating. But he has an offense that works to his strengths. Is Justin Fields capable with good coaching? Somehow, Pitt can win with Kenny Pickett but Mac Jones is a complete failure in NE. Statistically, Baker Mayfield and Trevor Lawrence are pretty similar, with Mayfield throwing a lot more touchdowns. 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/stats/player/_/table/passing/sort/adjQBR/dir/desc

Dobbs isn't a traditional pocket passer but KOC wants him to be. But it we had a playbook that was better suited to a running QB? And an o-line developed to do that? Is Dobbs better?

[Parfigliano]

Yes.

[Danchat]

10 hours ago, gunnarthor said:

Is Justin Fields capable with good coaching?

Fields just isn't accurate at all, there's only so much you can coach up. With better coaching he could improve his vision and pocket presence, but he's still missing some key components that will keep him away from becoming a franchise QB.

I noticed similar things with Marcus Mariota, he got plugged into some bad offenses in Tennessee and got a second shot in Atlanta with the best OL and weapons (Pitts was coming off a 1000 yard rookie year) he'd ever had, yet he still played like a bust and eventually got benched. And while their coaching isn't the cream of the crop, Mariota got his chances and failed.

Even the best QB coach there is, Kyle Shanahan, gave up on a ultra-talented QB prospect in Trey Lance for a wimpy 4th round pick. There are limits to how much coaching can fix.

10 hours ago, gunnarthor said:

Somehow, Pitt can win with Kenny Pickett but Mac Jones is a complete failure in NE.

Pittsburgh's defense has mostly been responsible for the wins, as their passing game has been atrocious. Bad enough that they just fired a coach mid-season for the first time since 1941. Belichick's defense hasn't been as good, and they also don't have a run game like Pittsburgh does.

I do think Jones could be a low-end starter as we saw flashes of that in his rookie year, but he's been coached by the likes of Matt Patricia and Bill O'Brien...

[nicksaviking]

8 hours ago, Danchat said:

Fields just isn't accurate at all, there's only so much you can coach up. With better coaching he could improve his vision and pocket presence, but he's still missing some key components that will keep him away from becoming a franchise QB.

I noticed similar things with Marcus Mariota, he got plugged into some bad offenses in Tennessee and got a second shot in Atlanta with the best OL and weapons (Pitts was coming off a 1000 yard rookie year) he'd ever had, yet he still played like a bust and eventually got benched. And while their coaching isn't the cream of the crop, Mariota got his chances and failed.

Even the best QB coach there is, Kyle Shanahan, gave up on a ultra-talented QB prospect in Trey Lance for a wimpy 4th round pick. There are limits to how much coaching can fix.

I agree with all of the Fields stuff, and would add that in addition to the inaccuracy, poor vision and pocket presence, Fields also suffers from severe indecisiveness and a lack of faith in himself. He holds onto the ball way too long and ends up checking down anyway. He's like the worst parts of Mariota, Christian Ponder and Mac Jones, he just so happens to have Jalen Hurts' legs. I think some of those things can be coached, but not the indecisiveness. 

I disagree that Shanahan is a QB guru though. He can coach one very specific kind of niche QB. If you want an immobile game managing pocket passer, he can work that to a T. But if you're looking for a QB who plays a modern style, he's 0 for 1. At least 0 for 1 in trying to get a modern QB to play within the niche he likes. Shanahan would probably be the last guy who could get anything out of Fields.

[gunnarthor]

Draft-wise, QBs tend to move up a lot between the end of the season and the actual draft. One of the first mocks last year had Richardson being available for the Vikings. That didn't work out. Williams, Maye, Daniels, Nix, Penix, McCarthy are the six QBs I've seen that have a 1st round grade from various sources. Not sure where the Vikings will draft but I assume they'll make the playoffs so late teens, early 20s. One will probably slip that far but maybe not two.

This report says the Vikings like McCarthy from his connections with Harbaugh/Kwesi. Depending on how the college playoffs go, I'm not sure McCarthy won't move up a lot. 

[nicksaviking]

25 minutes ago, gunnarthor said:

Draft-wise, QBs tend to move up a lot between the end of the season and the actual draft. One of the first mocks last year had Richardson being available for the Vikings. That didn't work out. Williams, Maye, Daniels, Nix, Penix, McCarthy are the six QBs I've seen that have a 1st round grade from various sources. Not sure where the Vikings will draft but I assume they'll make the playoffs so late teens, early 20s. One will probably slip that far but maybe not two.

This report says the Vikings like McCarthy from his connections with Harbaugh/Kwesi. Depending on how the college playoffs go, I'm not sure McCarthy won't move up a lot. 

Even four QBs going in the top 20 seems like it would be a record. But in any case, trading up from the middle of the draft to closer to say number 10 is easily do-able unless this organization continues to think drafting is a fantasy game and having more picks is more fun than having high picks.

Also, if Quinn Ewers comes out he's a wild card and we haven't seen the 'under-looked' small school guy pop up yet. Michael Pratt possibly.

And guys like Spencer Rattler, Carson Beck and Riley Leonard probably would have headlined the 2022 QB class. There will be interesting QBs available deep into this draft. I'd be fine if the Vikings took two.

[Mike Sixel]

Guessing here....

Three QBs go in the top ten. That means they'll have to trade up to get the fourth one. The fifth might drop to around fifteen, I'd guess. This is a deep QB draft, but ten teams need better QB play.....

I'm guessing Nix goes third, but JJ might. Penix goes fifth or sixth, depending on how people feel about the LSU QB. Six could go in round one.

[Aggies7]

4 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

Guessing here....

Three QBs go in the top ten. That means they'll have to trade up to get the fourth one. The fifth might drop to around fifteen, I'd guess. This is a deep QB draft, but ten teams need better QB play.....

I'm guessing Nix goes third, but JJ might. Penix goes fifth or sixth, depending on how people feel about the LSU QB. Six could go in round one.

Ha, I said that weeks ago and everyone boo’ed me soundly. The longer the season goes, the more teams appear to be in the market for a drafted QB.

The following teams could draft one IMO: cardinals, bears, giants, falcons, saints, Bucs, rams, falcons, patriots, jets, and possibly Vegas and the broncos. Pretty much all those teams will finish ahead of the Vikings except for maybe Denver. The position is so important to success and failure, teams will overdraft on QBs. Remember, Zack Wilson went TWO OVERALL. He doesn’t even appear to be a competent backup at this point. 
 

Vikings went on a run and hurt their draft status. And they may not even make the playoffs, at the benefit of the packers. Worst of all worlds