Should Fans Trust the Twins' Front Office?

[RpR]

It has Zero to do with trust; front office is going to do what they do, without regard to any trust in any form.

 

Now appreciate or dismiss as being , not right, that fans can do.

I accept what they do ,  but have different attitudes on moves made.

[jorgenswest]

Yes

[DocBauer]

Isn't this basically the 3rd version of this conversion just this week?

Oh well.

I don't like standing pat this past deadline. I felt there was STILL a chance to add a single pen arm at least to help out that wouldn't have cost much.. I wouldn't have minded a RH bat...usually plenty available...but it did seem there were few moved, and I'm not sure who might have made a significant difference.

I've never been afraid to call out the FO if I disagree with a move, or a lack of one. But what they've done to rebuild the entire system in 6 1/2yrs has been impressive to me. 3 playoff appearances and a pair of exciting back to back division wins has been impressive to me. While the FO doesn't run the draft, they are in charge of the scouting department that has produced some great drafts. And despite a very disappointing 2022, I just can't demand their dismissal or any lack of trust because of it. They had a team that was in 1st place all but a handful of games all the way in to early August. They were unusually aggressive at the deadline to make additions. And while we can look back at those trades and how bad they turned out, they sure seemed smart, exciting, and geared to help move the team to a 3rd ALC banner. Injuries just decimated the team to a degree that nobody could recover from. And I'm just going to debate for the umpteenth time, with revisionist thinking, about the merit of those moves.

And I'm not completely upset with the current "power plays" offensive format. Why? Because power plays, always has, and always will. Recent drafts, and Martin acquired via trade, shows that in the system they have been looking more and more at speed and "hitting" ability, while still looking to keep adding power as well. But you can't just flip a switch overnight for those changes to take place.

Where the FO is STARTING to lose at least some of my faith is their approach to THIS season. And I will state yet again that I felt they got the offseason 90% right, and then STOPPED. And that's where I have issue. I loved adding all 3 of Vazquez, Farmer, and Taylor. And while none of the 3 have done as well as hoped, and have been pressed in to more time than wanted here and there, they have been quality additions. Castro has turned out far better than hoped for, and I liked his addition as well. And Solano was a surprise that has also paid back his late addition in surprising fashion. 

But while I had high hopes for both Alcala and Moran...and I still have a lot of faith in the potential of Moran...I simply didn't understand just trusting in them to be counted on vs making additions to the pen. I advocated many times for 1 RH BP option for experience and depth. It didn't have to be Fulmer, but he seemed obvious. I haven't looked him up recently, but after a rough start to the year, he's been good for the Cubs. I believe his deal was only around $4-5M. Even with a record payroll, that extra few $M should have been affordable. Why not keep both veterans Coulombe...very good when healthy for the club...and Hoffman...doing a good job with the Phillies this year...who were having very good springs? They cost very little monetarily, and would be inexpensive DFA cuts if they washed out. I have ZERO problems saving $ by building a smart and deep pen with prospects, failed starters, and reclamation and bounceback candidates. But then why cut those types of players when you have them right in your hands???

Imagine a pen that had Coulombe, Hoffman, Fulmer on hand, PLUS, the bounceback of Stewart and DeLeon?  You'd still have Moran available and...at the time...a hopeful Alcala.

Just a BLOWN opportunity for a better, deeper pen with little $ investment if things didn't turn out right.

Again, I liked the trade for Taylor, and I still do. And I HATED the signing of Gallo. I still wouldn't have done it. I do GET why they did it...questions about the health of AK and Larnach...a possible rebound in his career that might pay dividends, but as a mid market team you have to trust in your available talent all the more. If you really believe in Kepler and want to keep him...that might yet turn out to be way smarter than I ever believed...then don't sign Gallo at all! 

To be 100% fair, Gallo was signed before the Correa saga played out. And they were obviously looking for/hoping for a rebound version that would help the offense with power and OB%. But while I applauded the Taylor trade, there was still a need for a legitimate RH OF bat for this team. And it's been ongoing for a few years now. Signing Gallo took that away. At some point you have to trust in your talent on hand and run with them! Larnach, Kirilloff, Wallner, and Gordon SHOULD have been trusted if you were keeping Kepler, and a RH bat should have been added. And if you guessed wrong...and it happens...then you adjust later. But Gallo was a mistake...one I tried to accept and understand...and is a mistake even now.

If they had trusted more in what they had available in the pen already, had added a RH OF bat, the trade deadline might have been obviously null, or might have been a SINGLE need and opportunity to add a single missing piece. Imagine the RH bat they added didn't turn out, for example.

I miss Arraez as a fan tremendously. But I'd make the trade of him for Lopez every day of the week. No insult to a favorite of mine and most everyone's, but Julien is basically a younger, potentially even better, replacement and we have a high quality SP under control, very good, with room to be even better.

The Twins are trusting in their young talent more and more in regard to Julien, Lewis, Kirilloff, even the surprising Castro, and FINALLY in Wallner. Personally, I still believe they are just wrong not letting Larnach come up right now to replace Gallo out of some stubborn sense lightning will suddenly strike. OR, the hell with it, let Larnach sit for a while longer if you want to, but bring up Williams to play 1B. So what if he's a RH bat, and so is Solano. At least Solano can be OK at 2B/3B. Could Williams possibly be worse than a 43% K bat who only hits .160 with a sub .300 OB%?

Being patient can be a good thing. Being patient has allowed our FO to make some really good moves here and there. Or not make some moves. 

But where they have failed at times, despite being very aggressive at times, is being TOO patient, OR, stubborn. And they have failed at times to not identifying with what they have. Or holding on too long for what they don't have.

And that frustrates the hell out of me!

I know it's about the FO, but the manager is part of that. I don't think Rocco is a great manager. I think he's pretty good though. And at the end of the day, he can only deal with he's given. By his own admission, his first couple of seasons was sitting back and letting the Bomba Squad do their thing. NOW, he's been actually managing. The whole "nobody gets to pitch beyond 5 innings" is SO TIRED. It's always been based on the arms available. 

I don't like some of the early exits, or the late exits he's employed.  I don't like him playing to the ego of SP at times this season and asking a RP to come in mid inning, but I also love the trust he's placed in his SP. But I have to admit I do love him letting his SP just telling him "I got this" and letting him go.  I also love how many SB and bunts and suicide squeezes and the such have happened this year. Rocco has stated this is the first year he's had a real opportunity to manage the game and do the little things. And Rocco is the FO manager, signed to an extension. 

So do I trust the FO?

My answer is YES. 

A virtual decade of disappointment baseball without ultimate results but obvious improvements and some good seasons doesn't make me ask for a change in the FO, or the manager, at this point. 

But do I feel they have been SLOW to make some obvious changes needed for THIS season, and did they stop short of what they COULD have done for this season? 

YES.

And that gives me pause. IMO, how the Twins finish this year, and what the FO does this offseason, will define what I think of them. There's an awful lot to like with a few tweaks and a couple of additions to make it all work.

The trust is still there. But just be smarter over the next 2 months, and the offseason.  Blow that, and I'm on board for change

 

 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

1 hour ago, DocBauer said:

Rocco has stated this is the first year he's had a real opportunity to manage the game and do the little things

Has he said why that is?

[DocBauer]

50 minutes ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

Has he said why that is?

I'm sure it was rather off the cuff and hyperbolic, but the comment was in regard to 2019 and 2020 when the Bomba Squad was in play. Again, off the cuff and hyperbolic. But also doesn't take a genius to look at changes since then to see some truth there, as well as watching changes in bunting, squeezes, and SB recently.

[old nurse]

LaMonte Wade for nothing

Tyler Wells for nothing

Luis Gil for Jake Cave when a warm body should have done it. True Gil has been out with TJ, but darn near who hasn’t

Huscar Ynoa for Garcia . 

Graterol for Maeda.. Maeda was used as a swing man. It should not cost overpays.

It isn’t that they made the mistakes as much as it was the compounding mistakes of the overpays for Mahle, Lopez the reliever, Pagán and Paddack, and Gallo

They essentially gave away Ryan’s better prospects. Just seemed vindictive or stupid Sort of like they want their players .The all or nothing hitting first round draft picks. How many times must it not come close to working. 

Analytics have a place. Somewhere someone has to have a feel for the management of the game.  They are like the piano player that can hit all the notes but not make music

[Nine of twelve]

Do I trust the FO? I don't think that's the right question. To me, it's how well have Falvey and Levine done their jobs? Evaluating that would require a wide-ranging detailed analysis. While looking at trades and draft choices is certainly part of the matter, this goes far further than that. Who has been hired and how have they performed? This applies to everyone in baseball operations, from the manager and coaches to scouts to player development to clubhouse attendants. Beyond that, for lack of a better way to say it, what is the corporate culture like? Are employees treated fairly and respectfully? Does the FO create an environment in which employees want to do all they can for the betterment of the organization? How well is the organization positioned for long-term success, both on the field and as a business? I'm sure there's much more that someone who understands how large organizations function would look at.

Do the same thing for every other MLB franchise. Then look at how the Twins' front office compares with the other 29 teams.

[farmerguychris]

I think the term 'trust', is an interesting choice for this headline.  Fact is - it doesn't matter if we (as fans) trust them or not.  The ownership's opinion of them is all that matters.  While we openly question many of their moves - or lack of moves - it is not 'trust' that is under evaluation IMO - instead the word I might use may be 'do I have confidence' in the F.O.  Do they get it 'right' more often than other teams F.O. teams.  I think the jury is still out.  Something this team has done since their arrival is to try and get 'bargains' by hoping below market contracts for oft injured players we might never otherwise get.  That doesn't really seem to be working well I'm sad to say, but I understand why they want to go that route - swing big and hope for the best MAY be a better plan than signing lower ceiling guys who may stay healthy would be a good subject to dig more into.

 

[sjunisu]

On 8/6/2023 at 12:06 PM, JoeCool said:

Time will tell, but I think they are doing a better job than they get credit for as a duo calling the shots.

The Good:

1) Recent Drafts:  Royce Lewis, Brooks Lee and Walter Jenkins are franchise altering talents.  Ryan Jeffers, Bailey Ober, Alex Kiriloff all look to be great picks.  They missed on Saboto and Cavaco, but the draft is very complex and with top picks they appear better than the prior regime who made a lot of whiffs with top picks. 

2) Attracting Top Talent: Before this regime top talents did not consider Minnesota.  This regime has attracted top tier players to this organization. They also have got the Pohlad’s to spend more and while not all talents worked out this is a great improvement from what he had seen historically.

 

3) Pitching: Particularly the starting pitching is the best we have seen in a long time if not ever.  The starting pitching depth is incredible.  We don’t have a Johan Santana, however he was a generational talent and we may have a few of those coming up in our system or even at the big league level.  

The Bad: 

1) Coaching Staff:  I am not sold on Rocco’s game management. The hitting coach also is a disaster and they continue to let it happen.  It would be great to see how Joe Masson would handle this club. Also a competent hitting coach could for sure get more out of this lineup.

2) Trades: Sonny Gray and Joe Ryan are both great adds.  Tyler Mahle, Emilio Pagan/Chris Paddack, Jorge Lopez were disasters that were masked by our deep farm system thankfully. I give the FO credit for having a deep farm system, but  we got fleeced in an epic way on those trades.  Perhaps Pagan/Paddack will still pan out better. 

3) Hanging on too long to failed projects: Too much talent is in the minors to allow Joey Gallo to take a roster spot. Same with Jorge Lopez and even to an extent Pagan who is performing now but was a huge reason for last years failures. We have too much young talent knocking at the door. We need to cut bait sometimes and much faster.  

Final Assessment: If they can upgrade coaching I sense this current roster could perform much better than today.  I would be for keeping them given how much they improved the short and long term prospects. With Lee, Lewis and Jenkins on the way. The future is bright for this team.  

 

Couple of counter points - 1) Royce Lewis is not a 'recent' draft pick (6 yrs ago) plus he has not been able to stay on the field up to this point.  While we all have high hopes for Lee and Jenkins, way to early to put this in the win column - not until we see MLB performance.  If you are going back to when the Duo first started, Rooker was a 1st round failure, Larnach has not even been an average MLB, nothing needs to be said about Cavaco and Sabato, too soon to tell on Noah Miller and everyone from 2021 and after.  2) Attracting what talent?  Correa?  That is looking like a mistake at this point.  Donaldson?  That was an unmitigated disaster that we had to basically pay to get out from under that contract (by giving up Garver (indirectly) and Rortvedt.  I can't think of other high profile player the Duo has signed during their tenure.  3)  Trades - you also forget the faiure that was the Pressley trade.  That has not worked out at all.  I would also add in the Maeda trade.  One decent season and giving up Graterol was not a win.  If you consider the Escobar trade that netted Duran a win then the Maeda trade was a loss.