Sonny Gray not too happy with Rocco...

[Rosterman]

Gray did fine tonight (Monday). A starter is expected to maybe give up 1-2-3 runs in his work of 5-7 innings.

[nicksaviking]

1 hour ago, notoriousgod71 said:

Rocco says, "I am the manager" as he takes Gray out after 69 pitches 

The bullpen gave up zero runs. 
 

This team is being driven into the ground by the weak plastic bats, not the pitchers nor the pitching decisions.

[gunnarthor]

1 hour ago, nicksaviking said:

The bullpen gave up zero runs. 
 

This team is being driven into the ground by the weak plastic bats, not the pitchers nor the pitching decisions.

The pitchers, as a unit, have amassed 4.7 bWAR (27th in baseball) or 7.4 fWAR (23rd). Hitters are 5th and 8th, respectively. The bats need help from the pitching pipeline that has failed to develop.

[Squirrel]

If I were Gray I wouldn’t be upset with my usage. I’d be more upset with the lack of run support

 

[SwainZag]

11 hours ago, gunnarthor said:

The pitchers, as a unit, have amassed 4.7 bWAR (27th in baseball) or 7.4 fWAR (23rd). Hitters are 5th and 8th, respectively. The bats need help from the pitching pipeline that has failed to develop.

The Twins are 15th in the league in runs scored.....14th in the league in runs given up.  bWAR is a great stat......but clutch hits have been few and far between for this club.  They have been absolutely putrid with RISP for awhile now.  Last night was the 22nd game they have scored 0 or 1 runs.  Blaming this all on the pitching is so disingenuous. 

[SwainZag]

12 hours ago, gunnarthor said:

Eh. He had a rough sixth,  I suppose,  but he had the bottom of the lineup coming up. I don't know why they pull him then. But it's our philosophy. 

Rangers were on his stuff in the 6th, 5 balls hit at 95+ MPH in the 6th, including two outs that traveled 375+ feet, both were a couple feet from breaking the game wide open.  Bullpen came in and shut them down for the remaining 3 innings and gave the team a chance if the offense could produce absolutely anything.

[gunnarthor]

28 minutes ago, SwainZag said:

The Twins are 15th in the league in runs scored.....14th in the league in runs given up.  bWAR is a great stat......but clutch hits have been few and far between for this club.  They have been absolutely putrid with RISP for awhile now.  Last night was the 22nd game they have scored 0 or 1 runs.  Blaming this all on the pitching is so ingenious. 

I think people haven't come to terms on how much pitching has dominated hitting the last few years. You complain that the Twins have 22 games with 0 or 1 runs but the Yankees have 21, Rays 18, Cleveland 26, Astros 17, Seattle 21, etc. 

Twins pitching staff is 23rd in ERA+ (they play in a pitcher friendly park) and the hitters are 5th in mlb in OPS+. They are top 10 in obp, slg, ops, wRC+, bWAR, fWAR, etc. Basically every stat that takes parks into account. The offense can be frustrating but it's a top 10 unit. The pitching is a bottom 10 unit.

[SwainZag]

39 minutes ago, gunnarthor said:

I think people haven't come to terms on how much pitching has dominated hitting the last few years. You complain that the Twins have 22 games with 0 or 1 runs but the Yankees have 21, Rays 18, Cleveland 26, Astros 17, Seattle 21, etc. 

Twins pitching staff is 23rd in ERA+ (they play in a pitcher friendly park) and the hitters are 5th in mlb in OPS+. They are top 10 in obp, slg, ops, wRC+, bWAR, fWAR, etc. Basically every stat that takes parks into account. The offense can be frustrating but it's a top 10 unit. The pitching is a bottom 10 unit.

5th in OPS+ is great!  But that has produced the 15th most runs in the MLB.  Don't you see the disconnent here?    Every stat says the Twins should be a top 10 offense...except actually pushing runs across.  They are very close to Atlanta in stats across the board....except Atlanta has scored 74 more runs than they have.  The Twins are 7th in wRC+ at 111...yet have only scored 18 more runs than Cincy with their wRC+ of 86.  Everything says great offense....except actually executing....which is kinda the main point of offense. 

The problem lies with clutch hitting. 

The Twins line of .244/.318/.383 with RISP ranks 21st/22nd/22nd in the league. Their tOPS+ is 93 which sits 27th .  It gets even worse when we get to 2 outs with RISP.  The Twins currently have a line of: .200/.297/.322 which ranks 27th/28th/27th in the league.  That's good for a tOPS+of 71 which is by far the worst in the league.  If the Twins even hit close to league average with RISP they are easily Top 10...possibly top 5 in runs, and probably have at least 5-7 more wins, if not more under their belt.

The comparison is like an NFL team who moves the ball at ease, but can't find the end zone.  Everything between the 20's is great, but this team has had MASSIVE problems hitting in clutch situations...and it directly shows in those statistics.  It makes a top 10 offense all over the board, into a merely average one when it's all said and done.

Edit: This probably deserves it's own post

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I am seeing people using modern Statcast-type data to justify how the pitching has been used, but then fall back on the old fashioned stuff to lament how the offense has been struggling. Lack of 2 out hitting, can’t hit with runners in scoring position, and so on. (Not singling anyone out.)

The recent stretch of games notwithstanding, it’s been the pitching, specifically the bullpen, that has hurt this team the most. Leads in the 8th and 9th inning, whether the score is 3-1 or 8-6, should result in wins, and too often this year, they haven’t, 
 

[Battle ur tail off]

1 hour ago, gunnarthor said:

I think people haven't come to terms on how much pitching has dominated hitting the last few years. You complain that the Twins have 22 games with 0 or 1 runs but the Yankees have 21, Rays 18, Cleveland 26, Astros 17, Seattle 21, etc. 

 

Can't wait for the shift to be done. I also hate the zillion strikeouts that now seem to dominate the game as well. 

[chpettit19]

12 minutes ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

I am seeing people using modern Statcast-type data to justify how the pitching has been used, but then fall back on the old fashioned stuff to lament how the offense has been struggling. Lack of 2 out hitting, can’t hit with runners in scoring position, and so on. (Not singling anyone out.)

The recent stretch of games notwithstanding, it’s been the pitching, specifically the bullpen, that has hurt this team the most. Leads in the 8th and 9th inning, whether the score is 3-1 or 8-6, should result in wins, and too often this year, they haven’t, 
 

You're comparing 2 different things here, though. The "Statcast-type data" to justify the pitching is the same type of data that is used to justify not stealing bases, bunting, etc. as frequently as before. But at the end of the day the execution of the pitching strategies and hitting strategies have each been lacking at different parts of the season. Talking about strategy and execution are 2 different things. The "modern" data is about the strategy (pulling starters earlier, not bunting, etc.) which is different than saying the Twins simply aren't getting enough guys out and aren't scoring enough runs.