Lewis Optioned

[Otto von Ballpark]

1 hour ago, Squirrel said:

 What’s his trade clause like anyway?

Per Cot's Baseball Contracts, Correa has a limited no-trade clause right now, which allows him to block deals to 5 teams. (The specific teams have not been disclosed.)

If he doesn't opt out after the season, it becomes a full no-trade clause.

[Otto von Ballpark]

5 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

I'd love to be in the room as these discussions are taking place to see the thought process.

If nothing else, they probably have good refreshments!

Quote

Once the Zoom ended [with Correa and Boras], Falvey and Levine headed to a conference area to eat. A smorgasbord of pizza had arrived, including a large Maui Wowie, which consists of pesto, jerk chicken, applewood smoked bacon, ham and pineapple. The group also ordered a medium pepperoni pizza, wings and two salads. Assistant GM Daniel Adler requested a meatball hoagie.

 

[chpettit19]

2 minutes ago, Otto von Ballpark said:

If nothing else, they probably have good refreshments!

 

Now I'm hungry.

[Brock Beauchamp]

23 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

I'm generally not one for "this sends a bad message to future free agents" kind of talk, but if they sign him and then trade him despite being in first place in the division it may actually send a terrible message to future free agents and everyone in the clubhouse. It's not the fan ire they should worry about there, but the player ire.

He has a full no trade clause that kicks in (if I'm remembering correctly) if he picks up his option so the only time they could trade him without his approval is by the deadline and he even has a limited no trade now (again, if I'm remembering correctly). The players all know it's a business, but trading Correa in the middle of a division race would be an awful message to send to the team and I'd think you could kiss any hope of "hometown" discounts for anyone currently on the roster goodbye. That's an awful way to run an organization.

Trading Correa would be disastrous. It's not even on the Twins' radar, I guarantee that much.

[bunsen82]

20 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

I'm generally not one for "this sends a bad message to future free agents" kind of talk, but if they sign him and then trade him despite being in first place in the division it may actually send a terrible message to future free agents and everyone in the clubhouse. It's not the fan ire they should worry about there, but the player ire.

He has a full no trade clause that kicks in (if I'm remembering correctly) if he picks up his option so the only time they could trade him without his approval is by the deadline and he even has a limited no trade now (again, if I'm remembering correctly). The players all know it's a business, but trading Correa in the middle of a division race would be an awful message to send to the team and I'd think you could kiss any hope of "hometown" discounts for anyone currently on the roster goodbye. That's an awful way to run an organization.

The Twins traded Berrios and Cruz last year -  yet Buxton still signed an extension with us.  Lets say you trade Correa for a young top end SP, I don't think that changes the calculus on the Twins players and signing extensions in the future.  Those 2 trades are one helping us immensely this year (Ryan) - and dramatically improved our pipeline and talent with Martin and SWR.  This years trades was primarily moving the deck chairs around opening up some money flexibility and Correa fell in our laps.  If Correa states the Twins were a great organization and helped he either get his contract or helped him succeed this year,  future free agents will take that more into consideration than fan optics.   I think we are slowly improving free agents opinions for SP who want to come to improve their stock on 1 year deals,  but with the pitching pipeline coming up that won't be nearly as necessary.   

[bunsen82]

6 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Trading Correa would be disastrous. It's not even on the Twins' radar, I guarantee that much.

I am willing to make that bet.   They have traded Rogers Cruz and Berrios -  what makes you think they wouldn't consider trading Correa?   If they received a good offer or an overpay similar to last years Berrios trade.  

[Squirrel]

1 hour ago, Major League Ready said:

Of course, he is not going to tell the team he is opting out.  However, if his performance is solid he would be able to sign a $275-$300M contract this off-season.  There is no chance  he does not opt out if he and Boras believe that kind of contract is waiting for him.  Age has the biggest impact on short-stops and Center Fielders in terms of free agent contracts.  His career earnings are going to be the highest if he can get a 7+ year deal this off-season.

I would hope the deadline decisions are made based on our chances to actually contend as opposed to what place we are in.

If we are in line for a playoff we are contending so it would be massively stupid to trade our best player who mans one of the most important positions. I hope we are trading anyone of that importance to the team just because he might now be with us next year

[chpettit19]

22 minutes ago, bunsen82 said:

The Twins traded Berrios and Cruz last year -  yet Buxton still signed an extension with us.  Lets say you trade Correa for a young top end SP, I don't think that changes the calculus on the Twins players and signing extensions in the future.  Those 2 trades are one helping us immensely this year (Ryan) - and dramatically improved our pipeline and talent with Martin and SWR.  This years trades was primarily moving the deck chairs around opening up some money flexibility and Correa fell in our laps.  If Correa states the Twins were a great organization and helped he either get his contract or helped him succeed this year,  future free agents will take that more into consideration than fan optics.   I think we are slowly improving free agents opinions for SP who want to come to improve their stock on 1 year deals,  but with the pitching pipeline coming up that won't be nearly as necessary.   

They traded Berrios and Cruz during a completely lost season, not a division title race. They're not even remotely comparative situations. At some point you can't keep playing for the future. A team trading for Correa with his current deal is looking to win this season. So that's cutting down who's going to even be willing to negotiate with you. They aren't giving you any pitching that could help this season because, again, they're trying to win themselves and trading away pitching is never the move a contender makes at the deadline. So you're getting prospects at maybe AA, but more likely high A or below. I don't know what type of "young top end SP" you're suggesting they get, but it wouldn't be anyone who can help anytime soon since no contender is trading that away.

[Riverbrian]

1 minute ago, Squirrel said:

If we are in line for a playoff we are contending so it would be massively stupid to trade our best player who mans one of the most important positions. I hope we are trading anyone of that importance to the team just because he might now be with us next year

 MLR is probably only mentioning the Correa trade possibility if we are out of contention and he isn't ruling that out. 

If we are in contention... We will not trade Correa. I'm sure MLR would agree with that. 

[Squirrel]

45 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

We've established our differing opinions on the Lewis situation, but I'm curious as why you think Lewis would be the call instead of Kirilloff at the end of the month. Assuming Miranda was kept because of his ability to play 1B while the Twins don't feel comfortable with anyone else on the current roster doing it I'd think Kirilloff has the leg up. I mean if 1B is the reason Miranda is up now I don't know why it's so obvious he goes down when another OFer comes back. I agree that's the obvious call, but to me that'd suggest his ability to play 1B isn't all that important to them since there's still no 1B on the roster when Larnach comes back.

As you would agree, we’ve all seen head scratching moments, although those differ, probably, for each of us. Mostly I think until they think Kirilloffs wrist can handle it they will keep him down. That’s all I’m basing it off of. I find the wrist thing iffy and don’t think of first base as that vital of a position anyway. But, I may change my mind in a week if we don’t see Lewis start in other positions as they said that was part of the reason for sending him down. Whether or not we agree with that reasoning, if I don’t see him playing around the field then I may join the camp of ‘What was the purpose in that?’

[Brock Beauchamp]

13 minutes ago, bunsen82 said:

I am willing to make that bet.   They have traded Rogers Cruz and Berrios -  what makes you think they wouldn't consider trading Correa?   If they received a good offer or an overpay similar to last years Berrios trade.  

They're not in last place this season.

[chpettit19]

4 minutes ago, Squirrel said:

As you would agree, we’ve all seen head scratching moments, although those differ, probably, for each of us. Mostly I think until they think Kirilloffs wrist can handle it they will keep him down. That’s all I’m basing it off of. I find the wrist thing iffy and don’t think of first base as that vital of a position anyway. But, I may change my mind in a week if we don’t see Lewis start in other positions as they said that was part of the reason for sending him down. Whether or not we agree with that reasoning, if I don’t see him playing around the field then I may join the camp of ‘What was the purpose in that?’

I'm with ya on the wrist concerns and I'd generally agree with you, but it all feels like such crisscrossing lines of reasoning to me that I don't feel at all comfortable betting that Lewis is back in 10 or so days. Kirilloff is starting to show some pop again, but I have no idea what they'll need to see to feel comfortable with him back in Minneapolis. We still don't know where they're going to move Lewis around to so no idea what that situation really is. Miranda going down for Larnach after they kept him presumably because of his ability to play 1B just makes the Lewis thing weirder to me. On Wednesday it mattered he was the only experienced 1B on the roster, but by the weekend it doesn't matter? I generally like and trust this FO, but this week has been very confusing and frustrating to me.

[Major League Ready]

38 minutes ago, Squirrel said:

If we are in line for a playoff we are contending so it would be massively stupid to trade our best player who mans one of the most important positions. I hope we are trading anyone of that importance to the team just because he might now be with us next year

I agree with your position in part but don't believe it's as simple as are they in the running for a playoff spot.  I sure hope that they are not managing assets based on year 1 returns.  A 2nd year finance student knows better.  IMO, and that's all it is.  The other influences will be.

1) What's the return / value proposition.  This FO and the Rays / As have demonstrated that they will trade based on value.  It has been very productive for the As and Rays.   

2) Is Correa's performance modest or poor by his standards.  They may not want to provide him the option of staying and trading him resolves that issue.

3) Are they a playoff team with a very modest chance at post season success or a real contender.  I don't see them being in the same league as the Yankees / Astros and perhaps Angels.

Trading Correa is massively stupid in the current year context because it obviously reduces their 2022 outlook.   Outlook for what is the question?  If they have a playoff team but not a realistic contender, the gain is likely of little impact.   If they could get an impact player in return its potentially a massive loss for 6 seasons.  All I am saying is that the decision likely won't be made based solely on if they are a playoff team.  I would take a pitcher who ends up a 1 or even two over keeping Correa on a fringe contender without hesitation.  Obviously, there is no assurance the prospect ends up a 1 or 2 so I am speaking very hypothetically.  Do you suppose the Rays wish they had not made the Ryan trade?

[bunsen82]

36 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

They traded Berrios and Cruz during a completely lost season, not a division title race. They're not even remotely comparative situations. At some point you can't keep playing for the future. A team trading for Correa with his current deal is looking to win this season. So that's cutting down who's going to even be willing to negotiate with you. They aren't giving you any pitching that could help this season because, again, they're trying to win themselves and trading away pitching is never the move a contender makes at the deadline. So you're getting prospects at maybe AA, but more likely high A or below. I don't know what type of "young top end SP" you're suggesting they get, but it wouldn't be anyone who can help anytime soon since no contender is trading that away.

If we signed Correa to win this season why did we trade Rogers?   If you trade Correa you are likely getting a top end SP similar to Ryan with higher upside from AAA maybe AA nothing lower.  It isn't for this year.  Nothing that the Twins have done screams that they are playing for this year other than the Correa signing.  I don't pretend to know who the Twins would want.  Your most likely trade partner is the Yankees,  especially since the Red Sox probably wouldn't trade them Bogaerts.   They have 3 pitchers in their top 10 at AAA -  one lefty 2 righty's. The also have Wells a Catcher at high A that will likely get promoted to AA shortly. they then have 3 shortstops.    

Right now I don't see something that pops up right now.  Its just I think I have a pretty good handle on this front office,  and I have predicted all 3 of the trades,  and know they wouldn't want to sign Correa for nothing in return,  even if they are doing well, because lets not kid ourselves,  this current iteration isn't ready to excel in the playoffs,  but we are getting closer.  The front office was able to put a good product on the field for us this year though.   I think they will get some cheap relief pitching even if they trade away Correa.  Maybe I am wrong,  but you also have to admit this front office isn't worried about the current impact of today, they are worried about the long term view of the team.  At some point we may see them put their chips to the center and try to win it all.  Right now isn't that time.  

[bunsen82]

1 hour ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

They're not in last place this season.

Were they in last place when they traded Rogers?

[CRF]

Lewis just went 3 for 3 in his first game back with the Saints, with a homer and a SB. He's going to make it very hard to keep him at AAA. 

[chpettit19]

2 minutes ago, bunsen82 said:

If we signed Correa to win this season why did we trade Rogers?   If you trade Correa you are likely getting a top end SP similar to Ryan with higher upside from AAA maybe AA nothing lower.  It isn't for this year.  Nothing that the Twins have done screams that they are playing for this year other than the Correa signing.  I don't pretend to know who the Twins would want.  Your most likely trade partner is the Yankees,  especially since the Red Sox probably wouldn't trade them Bogaerts.   They have 3 pitchers in their top 10 at AAA -  one lefty 2 righty's. The also have Wells a Catcher at high A that will likely get promoted to AA shortly. they then have 3 shortstops.    

Right now I don't see something that pops up right now.  Its just I think I have a pretty good handle on this front office,  and I have predicted all 3 of the trades,  and know they wouldn't want to sign Correa for nothing in return,  even if they are doing well, because lets not kid ourselves,  this current iteration isn't ready to excel in the playoffs,  but we are getting closer.  The front office was able to put a good product on the field for us this year though.   I think they will get some cheap relief pitching even if they trade away Correa.  Maybe I am wrong,  but you also have to admit this front office isn't worried about the current impact of today, they are worried about the long term view of the team.  At some point we may see them put their chips to the center and try to win it all.  Right now isn't that time.  

They traded Rogers because a starter is better than a reliever. Rogers still hasn't thrown as many innings this year as Paddack has and Paddack hasn't thrown a pitch in almost 2 weeks. They got a reliever back in that deal to replace Rogers for this year. If you had such a great handle on this front office you'd know they don't value individual relievers and find them to be quite replaceable. The Twins pen being second in baseball in WPA would seem to suggest they're right about that.

The Yankees already turned down trading either of their top SSs or Dominguez for Montas or Olson so find it hard to believe they'd turn around and trade them for half a season of Correa. Wells is an awful defensive catcher so I'd be surprised if that's someone the Twins would find to be an acceptable centerpiece for a Correa trade. Think you'd find it hard to find any evaluator who believes Sweeney is a shortstop. He's a worse defender than Martin and Martin is no SS. So you don't have any position players in their top 10 that the Twins would want as a centerpiece. None of their top pitching prospects (including Gil who I'd be shocked if this FO traded for after trading him away originally) are any better than what they already have in their system and would cause a major 40-man clog which means they'd be trading Correa away and also have to risk losing guys as they take them off the 40-man.

What trades did you predict? Rogers? They tried to trade him last year so that's not any great guess. Donaldson? They wanted to get out from the money so also an easily predictable result. Garver? They had 3 ML catchers and holes at short and SP so it wasn't any great shock that they'd trade the oldest of the catchers. Or are you talking about Berrios and Cruz who everyone knew they'd trade during a lost season? Do you have an example of a trade this FO made where they traded a star during a playoff season? That's the proof I'd believe that they're likely to trade Correa in the middle of a pennant chase.

[bunsen82]

36 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

They traded Rogers because a starter is better than a reliever. Rogers still hasn't thrown as many innings this year as Paddack has and Paddack hasn't thrown a pitch in almost 2 weeks. They got a reliever back in that deal to replace Rogers for this year. If you had such a great handle on this front office you'd know they don't value individual relievers and find them to be quite replaceable. The Twins pen being second in baseball in WPA would seem to suggest they're right about that.

The Yankees already turned down trading either of their top SSs or Dominguez for Montas or Olson so find it hard to believe they'd turn around and trade them for half a season of Correa. Wells is an awful defensive catcher so I'd be surprised if that's someone the Twins would find to be an acceptable centerpiece for a Correa trade. Think you'd find it hard to find any evaluator who believes Sweeney is a shortstop. He's a worse defender than Martin and Martin is no SS. So you don't have any position players in their top 10 that the Twins would want as a centerpiece. None of their top pitching prospects (including Gil who I'd be shocked if this FO traded for after trading him away originally) are any better than what they already have in their system and would cause a major 40-man clog which means they'd be trading Correa away and also have to risk losing guys as they take them off the 40-man.

What trades did you predict? Rogers? They tried to trade him last year so that's not any great guess. Donaldson? They wanted to get out from the money so also an easily predictable result. Garver? They had 3 ML catchers and holes at short and SP so it wasn't any great shock that they'd trade the oldest of the catchers. Or are you talking about Berrios and Cruz who everyone knew they'd trade during a lost season? Do you have an example of a trade this FO made where they traded a star during a playoff season? That's the proof I'd believe that they're likely to trade Correa in the middle of a pennant chase.

You just answered my question.  Rogers would have made this team better in the W and L category this year than Paddack and the reliever.  However the long term value was beneficial to the Twins.   Go read my posts on relievers,  I have stated they don't pay squat on relievers.      

The Yankees didn't forgo trading shortstops in the offseason,  they decided to not pay up at the time for an elite shortstop contract.  The Yankees have a legit team this year to win it all.  Would they be a better team with Correa or Kiner-Falefa.   Again I have no idea who the Twins would want.  As to Wells lets just look at him - he has improved quite a bit on the defensive side.  Add in we are on our way to electronic calls and strikes in the next 2-3 years defensive catchers would be as big of an advantage.  Also my personal opinion based off of Sanchez is he has actually been a decent defensive backstop for us this year (he was abysmal for the Yankees),  so maybe we are better at teaching how to be better pitch framing than the Yankees have been.   As to Yankees trading for Olson and not trading a top prospect they were able to get rid of Sanchez that was an albatross to them and have actually done pretty well with their trade from us.  As to the pitchers I have no clue and it could be a 3 way trade.   The Yankees may be willing to move chips in at the deadline and marginally improve their team.    

As to your example regarding whether this front office have traded an elite player while in the hunt - this situation is different than any other situation.   We have never been in this situation before to have an elite talent on essentially a 1 year contract, with a prospect who looks ready to take over the reigns and be a generational star.   No offense this doesn't happen on a regular basis.  Maybe I am wrong, and the Twins don't trade him.  However the Twins haven't really let any decent player walk without trading them first and getting compensation back.   Based on the trades earlier,  this also doesn't preclude the twins of making other trades to be beneficial to the team to avoid a 40 man jam at the end of the year.  No one projected 3 trades and Correa signing this offseason.  

I answered your question,  name 1 decent player in the last 5 years the Twins have let walk and go to free agency?  You had Gibson who was sick and not performing well and Odorizzi that was injured that I can think of.  

[chpettit19]

1 minute ago, bunsen82 said:

You just answered my question.  Rogers would have made this team better in the W and L category this year than Paddack and the reliever.  However the long term value was beneficial to the Twins.   Go read my posts on relievers,  I have stated they don't pay squat on relievers.      

The Yankees didn't forgo trading shortstops in the offseason,  they decided to not pay up at the time for an elite shortstop contract.  The Yankees have a legit team this year to win it all.  Would they be a better team with Correa or Kiner-Falefa.   

As to your example regarding whether this front office have traded an elite player while in the hunt - this situation is different than any other situation.   We have never been in this situation before to have an elite talent on essentially a 1 year contract, with a prospect who looks ready to take over the reigns and be a generational star.   No offense this doesn't happen on a regular basis.  Maybe I am wrong, and the Twins don't trade him.  However the Twins haven't really let any decent player walk without trading them first and getting compensation back.   Based on the trades earlier,  this also doesn't preclude the twins of making other trades to be beneficial to the team to avoid a 40 man jam at the end of the year.  No one projected 3 trades and Correa signing this offseason.  

I answered your question,  name 1 decent player in the last 5 years the Twins have let walk and go to free agency?  

Agree to disagree on Rogers. Again, the Twins have the 2nd most WPA among all major league bullpens. The bullpen has been more than fine without him. You're confusing your predictions with reality. The reality is that the Twins haven't needed Rogers.

The Yankees 100% passed on trading shortstops this offseason. It's a really easy google search to find numerous articles on them refusing to trade either Volpe or Peraza and those 2 are the reason they didn't pay up for the shortstop. 

Almost everyone predicted a ton of trades for this team this offseason. Like you can go back and look at dozens of threads on this very site where there's dozens of people talking about all the trades that were expected to happen. I'll give you nobody was really expecting the Correa move. But the trades were predicted by just about everyone.

Decent players walk for nothing? Trevor May. Eddie Rosario. Shoot, Ehire Adrianza was decent. Jason Castro. Kyle Gibson. Robbie Grossman. Jake Odorizzi. CJ Cron. Michael Pineda. Sergio Romo. Jonathan Schoop. Rich Hill. Matt Wisler. Tyler Clippard. Andrelton Simmons. Those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head, but there may be more. They're all different levels of decent, but all of which walked out the door for nothing and many of them could've gotten something back in return. But the Twins were in division title races during the last year of many of their contracts so they didn't trade them. Weird.

[bunsen82]

14 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Agree to disagree on Rogers. Again, the Twins have the 2nd most WPA among all major league bullpens. The bullpen has been more than fine without him. You're confusing your predictions with reality. The reality is that the Twins haven't needed Rogers.

The Yankees 100% passed on trading shortstops this offseason. It's a really easy google search to find numerous articles on them refusing to trade either Volpe or Peraza and those 2 are the reason they didn't pay up for the shortstop. 

Almost everyone predicted a ton of trades for this team this offseason. Like you can go back and look at dozens of threads on this very site where there's dozens of people talking about all the trades that were expected to happen. I'll give you nobody was really expecting the Correa move. But the trades were predicted by just about everyone.

Decent players walk for nothing? Trevor May. Eddie Rosario. Shoot, Ehire Adrianza was decent. Jason Castro. Kyle Gibson. Robbie Grossman. Jake Odorizzi. CJ Cron. Michael Pineda. Sergio Romo. Jonathan Schoop. Rich Hill. Matt Wisler. Tyler Clippard. Andrelton Simmons. Those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head, but there may be more. They're all different levels of decent, but all of which walked out the door for nothing and many of them could've gotten something back in return. But the Twins were in division title races during the last year of many of their contracts so they didn't trade them. Weird.

Again all those players  no one else would want in a trade that year.  Odorizzi was on the DL who is trading for him?   None of those players will move the needle for a team trying to win the world series.  We non tendered Rosario and didn't want to pay him anymore that is a different situation.  My guess is they were willing to trade him and couldn't find a trade partner,  we were willing to let him go for nothing.   When you can dream up a situation similar to the current situation to Correa and state that is the reason it would be crazy to trade him I will agree with you.  But your examples again prove my point.    

If we had kept Rogers we would have 2 more wins most likely.  This isn't a dream scenario we would be a better team with Rogers this year.  Pagan has done well and I would have done that trade any day of the week, but these are 2 wins we get if Rogers is here.  

 

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/tyler-duffey-blows-twins-lead-in-4-3-loss-to-royals/id1349600088?i=1000558106980

https://www.espn.com/mlb/game/_/gameId/401354277

[nicksaviking]

3 hours ago, Otto von Ballpark said:

Per Cot's Baseball Contracts, Correa has a limited no-trade clause right now, which allows him to block deals to 5 teams. (The specific teams have not been disclosed.)

If he doesn't opt out after the season, it becomes a full no-trade clause.

And there seems little reason to include any kind of trade clause on a contract like this unless both parties understood a trade was possible if the Twins imploded.

But I'm with everyone else, he's not being traded while the Twins are in playoff position. Heck, it looks like every team in the AL Central has no designs on letting the Twins sink out of contention.

[chpettit19]

39 minutes ago, bunsen82 said:

Again all those players  no one else would want in a trade that year.  Odorizzi was on the DL who is trading for him?   None of those players will move the needle for a team trying to win the world series.  We non tendered Rosario and didn't want to pay him anymore that is a different situation.  My guess is they were willing to trade him and couldn't find a trade partner,  we were willing to let him go for nothing.   When you can dream up a situation similar to the current situation to Correa and state that is the reason it would be crazy to trade him I will agree with you.  But your examples again prove my point.    

If we had kept Rogers we would have 2 more wins most likely.  This isn't a dream scenario we would be a better team with Rogers this year.  Pagan has done well and I would have done that trade any day of the week, but these are 2 wins we get if Rogers is here.  

 

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/tyler-duffey-blows-twins-lead-in-4-3-loss-to-royals/id1349600088?i=1000558106980

https://www.espn.com/mlb/game/_/gameId/401354277

Nobody would've wanted Trevor May? That's your stance? Nobody ever wants a back end of the bullpen arm at the deadline?  That's a ridiculous claim. I don't have hard numbers in front of me, but I'd be willing to bet bullpen arms are the first or second most acquired players at the trade deadline. Nobody would've wanted Eddie Rosario who had a 116 OPS+ his last year with the Twins? Nobody would trade for him at the deadline? Not someone like the Braves who literally traded for him last year at the deadline when he was having a career worst season and went on to win the World Series with him winning the NLCS MVP. They let Rosario walk for nothing and you trying to pretend that's a different situation is you trying to play mental gymnastics to get around being wrong.

You asked for 1 decent player the Twins let walk away for nothing. I named 15 (we'll call it 14 since I forgot Odo was hurt) decent players. If you're asking about superstars it's a different question. The Twins haven't had anyone close to Correa's talent level outside of Buxton. The argument you should be trying to make is that they tried to trade Buxton last year. But I'd counter with the same thing I did about Berrios and point out it was a lost season, not a season in which they're trying to win the division. Jaime Garcia is probably the best example of this FO ever trading away a "decent" MLB player during a competitive season. Name 1 other "decent" player they've traded away in the middle of a pennant chase in the last 5 years.

Those are 2 games the Twins MAY have won if Rogers were here. Who says he wouldn't blow a save? Who says he wouldn't have thrown the game before and been unavailable? Who says he wouldn't have been used earlier in the game? It is a dream scenario because there's literally no way to know. So I'll take the Twins pen being 2nd in major league baseball in getting outs with the game on the line and be ok with that since that's the actual reality. Again, you're using your expectations and guesses while I'm giving you actual data on things that actually happened. That doesn't even bring up who would've started the games Paddack started and who knows what those results would've been. Maybe they'd have been terrible. The Twins won 3 of his 5 starts. Maybe it'd have been 0 with someone else starting. You can't know this. You can guess. That's it. Suggesting the Twins would be 2 wins better with Rogers on the roster instead of Paddack and Pagan isn't even an educated guess. It's taking 2 blown saves and suggesting the only possible outcome is that Rogers saves those 2 games despite the fact that the Twins hadn't used him as anything even resembling a strict closer since 2019. Oh, and who's pitching the innings Pagan has pitched? Would it just automatically be the lefty Rogers or would it have been someone like Stashak or Duffey?

[Riverbrian]

Sometimes I find it helpful to watch the other teams. 

I realize the context is different than our situation with Royce Lewis but I would like to point out that the Cardinals called up Nolan Gorman yesterday to play 2B. 

To accommodate this move they are shifting 2B Tommy Edman on the fly to SS. 

Other details worth mentioning. 

OF Tyler O'Neill is the injured player that created roster space for Gorman

Gorman was a 3B throughout his minor league career. Switched to 2B after Arenado was acquired. 

Edman has played a total of 12 games at SS. 

I realize the context is different and not completely comparable but this is another organization moving pieces around to get the best player called up despite the injury created opportunity occurring in the OF.  

Other organizations do this sort of thing... all the time. 

I'll put my helmet on now and wait for the blows. ?

[bunsen82]

36 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Nobody would've wanted Trevor May? That's your stance? Nobody ever wants a back end of the bullpen arm at the deadline?  That's a ridiculous claim. I don't have hard numbers in front of me, but I'd be willing to bet bullpen arms are the first or second most acquired players at the trade deadline. Nobody would've wanted Eddie Rosario who had a 116 OPS+ his last year with the Twins? Nobody would trade for him at the deadline? Not someone like the Braves who literally traded for him last year at the deadline when he was having a career worst season and went on to win the World Series with him winning the NLCS MVP. They let Rosario walk for nothing and you trying to pretend that's a different situation is you trying to play mental gymnastics to get around being wrong.

You asked for 1 decent player the Twins let walk away for nothing. I named 15 (we'll call it 14 since I forgot Odo was hurt) decent players. If you're asking about superstars it's a different question. The Twins haven't had anyone close to Correa's talent level outside of Buxton. The argument you should be trying to make is that they tried to trade Buxton last year. But I'd counter with the same thing I did about Berrios and point out it was a lost season, not a season in which they're trying to win the division. Jaime Garcia is probably the best example of this FO ever trading away a "decent" MLB player during a competitive season. Name 1 other "decent" player they've traded away in the middle of a pennant chase in the last 5 years.

Those are 2 games the Twins MAY have won if Rogers were here. Who says he wouldn't blow a save? Who says he wouldn't have thrown the game before and been unavailable? Who says he wouldn't have been used earlier in the game? It is a dream scenario because there's literally no way to know. So I'll take the Twins pen being 2nd in major league baseball in getting outs with the game on the line and be ok with that since that's the actual reality. Again, you're using your expectations and guesses while I'm giving you actual data on things that actually happened. That doesn't even bring up who would've started the games Paddack started and who knows what those results would've been. Maybe they'd have been terrible. The Twins won 3 of his 5 starts. Maybe it'd have been 0 with someone else starting. You can't know this. You can guess. That's it. Suggesting the Twins would be 2 wins better with Rogers on the roster instead of Paddack and Pagan isn't even an educated guess. It's taking 2 blown saves and suggesting the only possible outcome is that Rogers saves those 2 games despite the fact that the Twins hadn't used him as anything even resembling a strict closer since 2019. Oh, and who's pitching the innings Pagan has pitched? Would it just automatically be the lefty Rogers or would it have been someone like Stashak or Duffey?

Your definition of decont are much different than mine.  May is your only decent example, but we all know relievers are the cheapest and easiest thing to trade. I will give you the Twins we’re willing to run out the season rather than trade. Again May is no where near Correa.  We can agree to disagree. I think you will be mighty disappointed when August rolls around.  

[chpettit19]

1 minute ago, bunsen82 said:

Your definition of decont are much different than mine.  May is your only decent example, but we all know relievers are the cheapest and easiest thing to trade. I will give you the Twins we’re willing to run out the season rather than trade. Again May is no where near Correa.  We can agree to disagree. I think you will be mighty disappointed when August rolls around.  

I mean you're actively ignoring actual events that took place. The Twins actively kept Rosario knowing they wouldn't pay him in the offseason because they were in the playoff race. A team the very next year literally traded for him when he was having a worse season.

Of course he's not Correa. Very few players are. Can you name a time when another team has traded an All Star during a pennant chase they were in? Like you're claiming they're going to do something that basically has never happened before. It's actually impressive how sure you are in your stance that the Twins are about to do what no team has ever done before. I'll give you props for that. Confidence is important in life.

[bunsen82]

23 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

I mean you're actively ignoring actual events that took place. The Twins actively kept Rosario knowing they wouldn't pay him in the offseason because they were in the playoff race. A team the very next year literally traded for him when he was having a worse season.

Of course he's not Correa. Very few players are. Can you name a time when another team has traded an All Star during a pennant chase they were in? Like you're claiming they're going to do something that basically has never happened before. It's actually impressive how sure you are in your stance that the Twins are about to do what no team has ever done before. I'll give you props for that. Confidence is important in life.

What did the braves trade to get the mighty Rosario.  Pablo Sandoval who was immediately cut.  Rosario doesn’t have the value you think he does. The only reason he got the contract he did was because he got on one of his streaks during the playoffs.   
 

I am not going to say it’s positively going to happen, but it is a very strong possibility and that you completely ignore it as a possibility is just as questionable. I have given the reasons as to why.  The Twins leadership isnt specifically playing for this year. Just like this off-season we could see trades where they are buyers and sellers at the same time.  

[chpettit19]

1 minute ago, bunsen82 said:

What did the braves trade to get the mighty Rosario.  Pablo Sandoval who was immediately cut.  Rosario doesn’t have the value you think he does. The only reason he got the contract he did was because he got on one of his streaks during the playoffs.   
 

I am not going to say it’s positively going to happen, but it is a very strong possibility and that you completely ignore it as a possibility is just as questionable. I have given the reasons as to why.  The Twins leadership isnt specifically playing for this year. Just like this off-season we could see trades where they are buyers and sellers at the same time.  

As I pointed out he was having the worst year of his career and a team with championship aspirations still felt he was worth bringing in. Your argument is that when he had 116 OPS+ with the Twins he wasn't worth more than 86 OPS+ with the Indians. I'm not suggesting he'd have brought back the top prospect in the game, I'm suggesting they could've traded him in season and gotten pretty solid prospects back if their concern is always to not lose above average ML players for nothing. 

Comparing the offseason trades to in season trades is ignoring all context. Again, name me 1 time a team traded an All Star in the middle of a season that they were leading a division or in the heat of a playoff run? You're suggesting they're so focused on the future that they'll do something nobody has ever done.

[Otto von Ballpark]

3 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

Edman has played a total of 12 games at SS.

Edman was drafted as a shortstop out of college, and also started 231 games at SS in the minors. He’s well established as a MLB hitter too.

[bunsen82]

2 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

As I pointed out he was having the worst year of his career and a team with championship aspirations still felt he was worth bringing in. Your argument is that when he had 116 OPS+ with the Twins he wasn't worth more than 86 OPS+ with the Indians. I'm not suggesting he'd have brought back the top prospect in the game, I'm suggesting they could've traded him in season and gotten pretty solid prospects back if their concern is always to not lose above average ML players for nothing. 

Comparing the offseason trades to in season trades is ignoring all context. Again, name me 1 time a team traded an All Star in the middle of a season that they were leading a division or in the heat of a playoff run? You're suggesting they're so focused on the future that they'll do something nobody has ever done.

Trevor Bauer Cleveland 2019 July trade for Puig, Reyes and Logan Allen July 31 

 

 

[Riverbrian]

12 minutes ago, Otto von Ballpark said:

Edman was drafted as a shortstop out of college, and also started 231 games at SS in the minors. He’s well established as a MLB hitter too.

Yeah but that information isn't helping the point I'm trying to make. ?