Wolfson: DFA'd Borbon a possibility

[ThePuck]

Revere isn't exactly tearing it up either...I mean, compared to Hicks he is, but still...

 

211/.268/.211 Nothing to write home about...

 

Span is doing well...

[cmathewson]

Mastro is what he is, a 4th OF. And nothing in Benson's recent health and performance history suggested that he should have been seriously considered ready to be a viable third option.

 

It's easy to say: "We have a dearth of talent at position X, ergo the FO had no good plan on position X." It's quite another to say "we should have acquired player y for position X before the season."

 

But of course, that is not what you do. You pick easy targets when things don't go well after the fact. Again I ask you, whom should Ryan have acquired as Plan B?

[jokin]

It's easy to say: "We have a dearth of talent at position X, ergo the FO had no good plan on position X." It's quite another to say "we should have acquired player y for position X before the season."

 

But of course, that is not what you do. You pick easy targets when things don't go well after the fact. Again I ask you, whom should Ryan have acquired as Plan B?

 

I don't pick easy targets, just obvious ones, which on this team are frequently low-hanging fruit.

 

Plenty of fallback veteran options were available (most weren't great, but better than the current situation- which soon may prove to be untenable).

[greengoblinrulz]

know that Gardy is irate with Hicks for not running out a dropped flyball and that more-so than the BAve could be a reason they would send Hicks down if they claim Borbon.

[Kwak]

A few points: The Twins showed considerable patience with Butera, Plouffe, Hendriks, and Dozier yet Hicks gets a week and a half--and "nuts to him"? A second point--if the Twins are ever going to get serious about building a winner they need to stop "dumpster-diving" and focus on those that have a track record of success. As was pointed out earlier the Twins have his equivalent in Rochester, there is no need to sift through the trash.

[TKGuy]

I'd give Benson a shot.

[Pius Jefferson]

A few points: The Twins showed considerable patience with Butera, Plouffe, Hendriks, and Dozier yet Hicks gets a week and a half--and "nuts to him"? A second point--if the Twins are ever going to get serious about building a winner they need to stop "dumpster-diving" and focus on those that have a track record of success. As was pointed out earlier the Twins have his equivalent in Rochester, there is no need to sift through the trash.

 

The biggest difference between Hicks and the others is he's hitting lead-off and was suppose to be a table setter for the rest of the lineup. If he can't even draw a walk than that's not helping the rest of the team.

[Thrylos]

It makes sense for our current situation. I'm for it.

 

Who would we release from the 40 man?

 

Butera

[Thrylos]

know that Gardy is irate with Hicks for not running out a dropped flyball and that more-so than the BAve could be a reason they would send Hicks down if they claim Borbon.

 

This is major BS by the manager of the millennium, btw. That field was so bad, that his second baseman fell on his rear end trying to work a double play, so gassing it on the bases was not an option last night.

 

And if Gardy needs to throw someone under the bus for the 3 game series, he can start with Mauer, Morneau and Doumit who all have been hitting like Hicks has been hitting that series (and Mauer has been taking unexplainable hacks) moving to Pelfrey and end up looking in the mirror for keeping Correia in too long.

 

Sick and tired of that guy throwing rookies under the bus. Hicks will be ok. He is pressing. The last thing he needs is for his manager to publicly throw him under the bus.

 

Right now, Hicks is the best defensive Centerfielder in the 4 higher teams in the organization (at least.) You got to have him out there playing, just for that. Not many other options...

[ashbury]

The biggest difference between Hicks and the others is he's hitting lead-off and was suppose to be a table setter for the rest of the lineup. If he can't even draw a walk than that's not helping the rest of the team.

 

The opposing pitchers aren't cooperating, throwing him first-pitch strikes at a humiliating rate. He should charge the mound or something.

[snepp]

"Why won't you just hit me? I want to get on base!"

[Kobs]

It's easy to say: "We have a dearth of talent at position X, ergo the FO had no good plan on position X." It's quite another to say "we should have acquired player y for position X before the season."

 

But of course, that is not what you do. You pick easy targets when things don't go well after the fact. Again I ask you, whom should Ryan have acquired as Plan B?

 

At least the Twins' front office has a high bar to clear to for you. If some guy on a message board can't beat out JR, they are doing a bang up job.

[kab21]

I don't get it. People are now complaining about trading Revere but aren't interested in a player similar to Revere for almost nothing?

[John Bonnes]

A few points: The Twins showed considerable patience with Butera, Plouffe, Hendriks, and Dozier yet Hicks gets a week and a half--and "nuts to him"? A second point--if the Twins are ever going to get serious about building a winner they need to stop "dumpster-diving" and focus on those that have a track record of success. As was pointed out earlier the Twins have his equivalent in Rochester, there is no need to sift through the trash.

 

Its one thing to struggle. What Hicks is doing is on a whole other level. It might be several levels beyond struggling. He could hit three times as much AND cut his strikeout rate down to 1/3 of what it is - and THEN he would be as good as Butera.

 

That doesn't mean he won't be good someday, but sooner or later you have to ask yourself:

 

1) what evidence is there that he was not promoted too early?

2) how much more evidence do you need to believe he was promoted too early?

[ashbury]

you have to ask yourself:

 

1) what evidence is there that he was not promoted too early?

2) how much more evidence do you need to believe he was promoted too early?

 

Yes, but then question 3) ought to be, what do you do about it? Which is actually a two part question, what is the best thing for him, and (if you do yank him as CF starter) what is the best thing for the parent club? Past decisions, even those from about 2 weeks ago, are by now irrelevant to making an important decision now.

[jokin]

It's easy to say: "We have a dearth of talent at position X, ergo the FO had no good plan on position X." It's quite another to say "we should have acquired player y for position X before the season."

 

But of course, that is not what you do. You pick easy targets when things don't go well after the fact. Again I ask you, whom should Ryan have acquired as Plan B?

 

Christy- just to reiterate and to be fair to you as I don't think you were around at the time, we had lengthy debates on TD in the offseason after the big trades were made, and what a devastating impact they would have on the top of the order, no heirs apparent, whether or not they would move Mauer up, and who could possibly lead off for this team and if/who the Twins should acquire who could lead off ( FYI- I suggested signing and later trading Bourn at the deadline or keep him for a year and regain the lost pick after the presumed-declined QO), should Hicks not be ready. So your second paragraph is way off the mark here.

[Shane Wahl]

Um, they already have fill-ins ready. Borbon is not good. Why are people so eager to add players who aren't good to the team? Brandon Boggs is actually better than Borbon, for instance.

 

Look, the Twins, as I said, should have just sent Hicks to AAA. They didn't, but they now have to live with the decision.

[Craig in MN]

Borbon is at least as good, in general, as Ramirez (if not, then Ramirez wouldn't be a minor league free agent while Borbon is someone multiple teams seem to want on their 40 man roster).

Borbon provides some depth in the event that Hicks gets demoted, whether that is tomorrow, in ten days, or August. If he keeps struggling, at some point it will happen.

But Borbon also provides some depth in case Parmalee proves to be bad, or if Parmalee, Mastroianni, Morneau, Willingham, Mauer, Doumit or Hicks.

There's some dead wood on the 40 man roster.

 

If he's free, why not grab him?

[LaBombo]

A few points: The Twins showed considerable patience with Butera, Plouffe, Hendriks, and Dozier yet Hicks gets a week and a half--and "nuts to him"? ....... As was pointed out earlier the Twins have his equivalent in Rochester, there is no need to sift through the trash.

All of those guys got at least some time in AAA before they moved up. The fact is that even though usually only the most talented Twins AA position players are considered for skipping AAA to start in the majors, they have almost all ended up needing to go back to AAA anyway.

 

Also, if you're saying the Twins have Borbon's "equivalent" in Rochester, well, I can't imagine who you're talking about. Please explain.

[jokin]

Um, they already have fill-ins ready. Borbon is not good. Why are people so eager to add players who aren't good to the team? Brandon Boggs is actually better than Borbon, for instance.

 

Look, the Twins, as I said, should have just sent Hicks to AAA. They didn't, but they now have to live with the decision.

 

Boggs is most certainly not better than Borbon. He can't play CF, he's 3 years older than Borbon, the Rangers had both Boggs and Borbon at the same time, Borbon was starting, Boggs wasn't, and then they got rid of Boggs- this was 3 years ago! and he's had all of 22 PAs since then. Borbon's been slowed by ankle surgery since 2011, but the reports in Texas are that he can still play- and the Rangers stuck with him until now, when they ran into a numbers game with 2 better options in CF and a pitcher they needed to activate.

[LaBombo]

Past decisions, even those from about 2 weeks ago, are by now irrelevant to making an important decision now.

Get what you're saying, but disagree, brother. If the Twins intentionally rolled the dice and hoped Hicks would run with a chance at a job he may well not be ready for, well, then they should have seen enough.

 

On the other hand, if they thought that despite his contact issues and lack of AAA experience that he absolutely would be ready, then he stays until they see enough evidence to contradict their belief.

[LaBombo]

Look, the Twins, as I said, should have just sent Hicks to AAA. They didn't, but they now have to live with the decision.

Why? It's certainly a stretch that it would hurt the team in the short term. And more importantly, at least to me, are we sure a "demotion" will be worse for him than what's happening now?

 

To me, his body language is that of a young man who's been a gifted athlete his whole life, and suddenly feels like he's the kid who gets picked last for kickball.

 

So promoting him to the level above where he played last year to work on his hitting looks like a win for him, and very likely for the franchise.

[old nurse]

I don't pick easy targets, just obvious ones, which on this team are frequently low-hanging fruit.

 

Plenty of fallback veteran options were available (most weren't great, but better than the current situation- which soon may prove to be untenable).

So it is not easy to find an obvious target? Still curious as to what AAAA /veteran player that was still out there after the Revere trade you thought they should have picked up. Saying they should have picked up someone as a plan B is easy, stating a reasonable response is not obvious.

[jay]

To jump in here...

I had been hoping the Twins would have signed Andres Torres. He's no huge upgrade over Mastroianni, but he would have given us better depth in the OF (including CF) in any event at a pretty reasonable price (signed for $2M). Torres signed a week after the Revere trade.

[StormJH1]

I don't get it. People are now complaining about trading Revere but aren't interested in a player similar to Revere for almost nothing?

 

Not sure it's the same people making both arguments, but amen brother! Let's have a honest discussion about what Ben Revere was. He played two full seasons with OPS of .619 and .675. The guy was elite at "making contact", but you simply can't be effective at taking walks in the majors if the guys pitching to you have zero fear of you hitting the ball past the outfielders. Defensively, yes, his range was very good at an important position, but his arm was SO bad, that it virtually changed the entire way the Twins had to play defense with him.

 

Nevertheless, Revere had perceived value because of his youth, position, and because he can steal bases (an ability that is vastly overrated). We flipped that for two pretty good pieces. Worley may not be a "good" starter, but he's good enough to "improve" over the back end guys in our rotation. And Trevor May is the type of power pitching prospect this team simply does not seem to produce.

 

The difference between Julio Borbon and Ben Revere, at least in the short term, is probably not as big as people think. At least worth a shot (with Borbon or somebody like him).

[Shane Wahl]

Boggs is most certainly not better than Borbon. He can't play CF, he's 3 years older than Borbon, the Rangers had both Boggs and Borbon at the same time, Borbon was starting, Boggs wasn't, and then they got rid of Boggs- this was 3 years ago! and he's had all of 22 PAs since then. Borbon's been slowed by ankle surgery since 2011, but the reports in Texas are that he can still play- and the Rangers stuck with him until now, when they ran into a numbers game with 2 better options in CF and a pitcher they needed to activate.

 

Career minor league OPS for Boggs? .814. Borbon? .770. Other things are pretty comparable, though Borbon can steal some bases. Boggs is also a switch hitter and played some CF as recently as a year ago . . .

 

But Julio Borbon is the answer!

[Boom Boom]

Career minor league OPS for Boggs? .814. Borbon? .770. Other things are pretty comparable, though Borbon can steal some bases. Boggs is also a switch hitter and played some CF as recently as a year ago . . .

 

But Julio Borbon is the answer!

 

If the Twins thought that Boggs was as good of a CF option as Borbon, why would they have interest in picking up Borbon at all?

 

I didn't hear anybody claiming Borbon was an answer... at least not to any question worth asking.

[bobby_baseball]

Its one thing to struggle. What Hicks is doing is on a whole other level. It might be several levels beyond struggling. He could hit three times as much AND cut his strikeout rate down to 1/3 of what it is - and THEN he would be as good as Butera.

 

That doesn't mean he won't be good someday, but sooner or later you have to ask yourself:

 

1) what evidence is there that he was not promoted too early?

2) how much more evidence do you need to believe he was promoted too early?

 

I have no problem with Hicks earning the starting job. I think 30 AB's is a bit quick to send him down - if he's at 60-70 AB's and no sign of things trending in a positive direction you send him down to AAA and let him get some confidence back. You can live with a rookie hitting .200 and doing some other things to help the club NOT with a guy hitting .050.

 

A LH/RH duo of Mastro/Borbon would be good enough IMO to carry us through the All-Star break and see where we are at that point.

[kab21]

Career minor league OPS for Boggs? .814. Borbon? .770. Other things are pretty comparable, though Borbon can steal some bases. Boggs is also a switch hitter and played some CF as recently as a year ago . . .

 

But Julio Borbon is the answer!

 

Borbon is a great 4th OF'er that can start in CF for an extended period of time. Boggs potentially has a better bat but you really don't want to play him in CF for more than a game or two.

 

With Mastro and Benson dinged up, borbon makes sense since he can actually fill in in CF. It's a little inconvenient to make the move since Hicks should be given a couple more weeks to try to play through this adversity but adding Borbon to the team makes sense.

[bobby_baseball]

Career minor league OPS for Boggs? .814. Borbon? .770. Other things are pretty comparable, though Borbon can steal some bases. Boggs is also a switch hitter and played some CF as recently as a year ago . . .

 

But Julio Borbon is the answer!

 

Shane with all due respect - Borbon would platoon with Mastro in CF. That L/R combo could be as good as Revere was for the team last year. Borbon a a plus-defender and plus-base runner entering his prime at 27. Not to mention he's a .283 MLB hitter. Add that to some of the things Mastro can do and that's a nice little platoon for 2013. Not a long term solution by any stretch - but two guys who can compliment each other well.

 

Boggs was brought in as an organizational filler - like Clete Thomas a year ago. They shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence.