What should be done with the Twins outfield?

[KirbyDome89]

5 hours ago, Major League Ready said:

I am not really sure what you are asking or what point you are trying to make now.  There are countless examples where teams were unable to come to terms with a player they attempted to extend.  My original point was a response to someone insisting this is a Twins problem.  History is quite clear that other teams, especially below average revenue teams trading these players instead of losing them for nothing.  

It’s really quite common for players to start out with an asking price considerably higher than the market will bear. Ian Desmond comes to mind because he got an extension offer considerably above what he ended up getting but there are many others.  There are also many examples of players who ended up getting an outrageous amount and the team letting them walk dodged a bullet.  The Cardinals are well run and they let Pujlos go.  That contract hurt the Angels badly for 5 years.  Of course, they also resigned Jason Heyward instead of letting him go and that was a mistake.  The Yankees let Ellsbury go.  You may remember there was someone here who insisted the Twins needed to sign him.  

The primary point here being even the high revenue teams part with players.  It's also not a complicated premise that lower revenue teams have to be more careful given these players represent a much higher percentage of available payroll when compared to the top revenue teams.   It’s also very clear some players insist on testing free agency and there are also many examples of players who did not get anywhere near what they started out asking.  The constant insistence it’s a Twins thing requires we simply ignore very clear facts/examples.
 

The same one I made in my original post. Your definition of reasonable is one that slants in favor of the team, and the implication from the above quote is that players who aren't willing to take a discount, or negotiate from a position of low leverage aren't being "reasonable."

I'm sure teams aren't starting at their ceiling either, such is a negotiation. Desmond was one of, if not the best, SS in baseball for the 2 years leading into Washington offering him an extension below what his piers at the top had secured. That's proving the point I'm making, no? 

How often do we actually see high end players lose out in FA? Honestly. Even in the Desmond example you cited, it took a massive down year, a historically awful offseason with rumors of collusion, and even then he was able to spend a year in TX, and parlay that into a 5 year $70M deal with Colorado, recouping nearly all of the original offer from Washington.

Boiling it down to "Boston did it and they generate X revenue," is overly simplistic IMO.

[RonCoomersOPS]

Trade Kepler, extend Buxton, move Larnach to RF where he belongs, and ride the hottest hand between Arraez and Celestino in LF until Martin arrives (probably late this upcoming year). Get a fourth OF whose name isn't Jake Cave. Continue to invest in pitching and player development.

[Major League Ready]

5 hours ago, KirbyDome89 said:

The same one I made in my original post. Your definition of reasonable is one that slants in favor of the team, and the implication from the above quote is that players who aren't willing to take a discount, or negotiate from a position of low leverage aren't being "reasonable."

I'm sure teams aren't starting at their ceiling either, such is a negotiation. Desmond was one of, if not the best, SS in baseball for the 2 years leading into Washington offering him an extension below what his piers at the top had secured. That's proving the point I'm making, no? 

How often do we actually see high end players lose out in FA? Honestly. Even in the Desmond example you cited, it took a massive down year, a historically awful offseason with rumors of collusion, and even then he was able to spend a year in TX, and parlay that into a 5 year $70M deal with Colorado, recouping nearly all of the original offer from Washington.

Boiling it down to "Boston did it and they generate X revenue," is overly simplistic IMO.

I think you are overlooking that I prefaced my statement with I hope they make an offer fair to both sides.  IDK how you are interpreting this but how can it be fair to both sides if it does not reflect the market?  Then, assuming a fair offer I added I hoped Buxton would accept a fair offer.  I think you have a predisposed notion driving how you are interpreting this because it seems pretty straight forward to me.  The information we have (for what its worth) is that they agreed on the guarantee.  Which side was being unreasonable in terms of incentive is hard to know.  

I agree that FA rarely lose out in free agency.  That's why so many insist on going through the process which supports my position.  I can also agree the Desmond example has little weight.  However, the numerous examples of teams unable to extend players is somethings fans elect to ignore when they speak as if there is nothing to it.  Just get them signed.  I would add that pretending the Twins or any other below average revenue team has an equal shot at free agents is pure denial.  The fact that even teams with big revenue like Boston suffer this fate is a bit simplistic but relevant none the less in the context of this is bound to happen so why to fans have a fit and insist it should not happen.

[RpR]

2 hours ago, RonCoomersOPS said:

Trade Kepler, extend Buxton, move Larnach to RF where he belongs, and ride the hottest hand between Arraez and Celestino in LF until Martin arrives (probably late this upcoming year). Get a fourth OF whose name isn't Jake Cave. Continue to invest in pitching and player development.

Good Grief.

Arraez is a lousy infielder and you want him in the outfield, you want Larnach who is slow and has a weak arm in right field, again, good grief.

Celestino has fielding agility and speed but has to learn how to hit, and waiting for rookies who can just as easily be as poor in the out-field as Larnach and Rooker, is illogical.

Unless you get a snag of pitchers with a sub 2.00 era, with some of the fielding set-ups you get listed here unless the Twins score like they did in 2019, no matter how good the pitching is they will be outscored.

 

 

[Scotts]

Trade Buxton. Hurt every year for lengthy periods. For a Starting pitcher and third baseman. Sign ss correra

[nicksaviking]

On 10/28/2021 at 5:30 PM, tony&rodney said:

Do you have a roster for 2022 that you will share?

A roster or just the outfielders? If the Twins sign and/or trade for at least TWO top end starters, then I say absolutely go get a competent corner outfielder. I think I like Mark Canha better than Taylor though, and I mentioned somewhere else that Tommy Pham is offensively similar to Canha, but likely cheaper, so you could add him and use the savings on pitching.

If they aren't going to be able to remake the rotation to keep up with the top clubs (which is a very tall order), then my OF is Buxton in CF. I'd move Kepler if I can, if not he keeps his job and I let Kirilloff, Larnach, Martin, Rooker and Celestino push each other and fight it out. Maybe Miranda, De La Trinidad and perhaps Walner if he gets hot join the mix.

[tony&rodney]

19 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

If they aren't going to be able to remake the rotation

.... to your reply - I agree. It does seem like the $130 million budgets are hoping to contend if things go well. Even $140 million might make a roster thin without some really good trades. Without pitching, adding an expensive outfielder may not be worth it and Twins fans appear to bank on Lewis, Martin, Larnach, and others to step up.