Mauer in Two-Hole

[ThePuck]

 

Mauer batting 3rd, folks...

 

As he should be

[old nurse]

Sorry to hijack this thread further, but I had to respond to this.

 

I would absolutely love to see Correia prove me wrong. I want to look like an idiot after he wins 15 games with a sub-4 ERA. Just about anyone here would feel the same.

Aren't wins a team stat irrelevantt to the pitcher's actual performance? Just kidding with you.

Ian Kennedy and Phil Hughes were the only two pitchers last year to have 15 wins or more and an ERA over 4. There were a lot of pitchers with more than 25 starts, sub 4 ERA that did not make 15 wins.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Thirty-something posts and not a single "two-hole" joke?

 

You're all letting me down. Come on.

[IdahoPilgrim]

Thirty-something posts and not a single "two-hole" joke?

 

You're all letting me down. Come on.

 

And risk getting banned by the moderator?

[70charger]

Thirty-something posts and not a single "two-hole" joke?

 

You're all letting me down. Come on.

 

 

We were trying to be respectful of your mother. Hey-ooo!

 

 

 

 

(Okay, I'm sure she's a lovely woman.)

[jm3319]

As he should be (in reference to Mauer batting third)

 

umm, why not put him in the 2 hole? He's an OBP machine (aka best in the league) and has less power than Morneau, and Hammer. Why put some bum who is going to hit .240 in the two hole just because he is some small dude that plays middle infield and might be able to steal a base if he somehow finds his way to first base? Also leads to more at bats for Mauer over the course of the season (possibly, not a huge issue). It just shifts all the best hitters forward one spot and prevents them from having to hit behind a crappy hitter.

[ThePuck]

umm, why not put him in the 2 hole? He's an OBP machine (aka best in the league) and has less power than Morneau, and Hammer. Why put some bum who is going to hit .240 in the two hole just because he is some small dude that plays middle infield and might be able to steal a base if he somehow finds his way to first base? Also leads to more at bats for Mauer over the course of the season (possibly, not a huge issue). It just shifts all the best hitters forward one spot and prevents them from having to hit behind a crappy hitter.

 

 

Because he hits exceptionally well with RISP (better than anyone else on the team) and I'd rather not have him bunting someone over or sacrificing himself to move the guy to third base.

[snepp]

Because he hits exceptionally well with RISP (better than anyone else on the team) and I'd rather not have him bunting someone over or sacrificing himself to move the guy to third base.

 

Is there a rule that the #2 guy HAS to bunt and sacrifice?

[PseudoSABR]

Is there a rule that the #2 guy HAS to bunt and sacrifice?

Right. There's actually something really cool about Hicks getting on and then Mauer working a walk. Suddenly, Morneau or Willingham is batting with two on, no outs, and a speedster at 2nd. That's a good thing guys.

 

Something else to consider: since Mauer is a high-walk guy, sacrificing the runner over in the at bat before is somewhat mitigated.

[raindog]

Aren't wins a team stat irrelevantt to the pitcher's actual performance? Just kidding with you.

Ian Kennedy and Phil Hughes were the only two pitchers last year to have 15 wins or more and an ERA over 4. There were a lot of pitchers with more than 25 starts, sub 4 ERA that did not make 15 wins.

Ha, thanks for correcting that. But if he got 15 wins, that would probably mean the team is really good!

 

I would absolutely love to see Mauer in the two-hole. He's absolutely perfect for that role. After two terrible seasons, maybe Gardy will be willing to change his strategery.

[fairweather]

Some folks have been and continue to be quite up front and open about their hope for failure for certain people to "prove their point." Others you can find it in nuance and subtext. But there are certainly a fair amount of instances where their honest answer to your question could only be a resounding "No."

Only because if Correia succeeds it sends the message that dumpster diving for pitchers is OK. Not to mention how rich Pohlad is! With that kind of money behind ownership the Twins should be the Yankees of the mid-west, but NO Hoplad runs his baseball team like an accounting firm.

[fairweather]

One big bonus to batting Mauer 2nd is that his detractors wouldn't rip him for his pathetic RBI total as much.

[IdahoPilgrim]

Only because if Correia succeeds it sends the message that dumpster diving for pitchers is OK. Not to mention how rich Pohlad is! With that kind of money behind ownership the Twins should be the Yankees of the mid-west, but NO Hoplad runs his baseball team like an accounting firm.

 

So what are you saying - that the Pohlad's have a moral obligation to lose money for the amusement of the fans?

 

I don't understand this idea some have that there should be a correlation between how rich the owner is and how big the payroll should be. For me it's a question of revenue and expenses. You add together combined revenue from all sources (ticket sales, TV money, merchandising, etc), subtract expenses, and come up with a net income or loss. You also allow for a reasonable profit (baseball is, after all, a business, not a charity). Then, and only then, you can talk about whether the amount spent on payroll is appropriate and whether ownership is doing right by the team and the fans.

[fairweather]

If Mauer were to be the full-time #2 hitter would you people still freakout every time he bunts? That's what I want to know.

[fairweather]

So what are you saying - that the Pohlad's have a moral obligation to lose money for the amusement of the fans?

 

I don't understand this idea some have that there should be a correlation between how rich the owner is and how big the payroll should be. For me it's a question of revenue and expenses. You add together combined revenue from all sources (ticket sales, TV money, merchandising, etc), subtract expenses, and come up with a net income or loss. You also allow for a reasonable profit (baseball is, after all, a business, not a charity). Then, and only then, you can talk about whether the amount spent on payroll is appropriate and whether ownership is doing right by the team and the fans.

To me you make your money off other business and spend spend spend to win win win or else sell sell sell to someone with new money who will will will. Mark Cuban comes to mind. If you're not in it to win it your damaging the integrity of the entire sport and all professional sports for that matter. IMO

[diehardtwinsfan]

I don't expect the Pohlads to lose money on this franchise. I haven't seen the ML books, but that said, I'd be really hard pressed to believe that spending 100M would put them in the red. I'm glad I don't live in Minneapolis and have to pay taxes for that stadium. I'd be furious. While I didn't see any sure upgrades in the middle infield, there were good pitching options available. That is frustrating.

[fairweather]

If he's not going to try and buy championships then why did we buy the stupid stadium with no roof that is going to leave 30,000 stupid fans with frostbite in 2 days.

[TheLeviathan]

So what are you saying - that the Pohlad's have a moral obligation to lose money for the amusement of the fans?.

 

In fairness, the way this ownership group has talked in the past and even before this season, they appear to believe true fan loyalty gives us a moral obligation to give them our money no matter what the product they choose to field is. They certainly don't care how rich we are when they establish that belief either.

[Seth Stohs]

This thread is going in 4-5 different directions. Strange.

 

We all know that Mauer is a perfect #2 hitter. HE's also a great #3 hitter. If they can find and develop a good #2 hitter, it will just extend the lineup.

 

Brian Dozier has always been the definition lf a #2 hitter. Almost as many walks as strikeouts. Line drive hitter. Uses the whole field. Has good speed. Has good bat control... He had a rough showing in his MLB debut last year, but if he's able to get back to playing like he can, getting on base and doing all those things a #2 hitter should do, it will make the Twins lineup that much better.

 

The only argument I have for Dozier not hitting #2 at this point would be to let him spend a month hitting 8th just to see if he can get past his 2012 struggles and show he can do those things that the Twins (and I) believe that he can do. In a month, if he does, move him to the 2 spot.

[raindog]

This thread is going in 4-5 different directions. Strange.

 

We all know that Mauer is a perfect #2 hitter. HE's also a great #3 hitter. If they can find and develop a good #2 hitter, it will just extend the lineup.

 

Brian Dozier has always been the definition lf a #2 hitter. Almost as many walks as strikeouts. Line drive hitter. Uses the whole field. Has good speed. Has good bat control... He had a rough showing in his MLB debut last year, but if he's able to get back to playing like he can, getting on base and doing all those things a #2 hitter should do, it will make the Twins lineup that much better.

 

The only argument I have for Dozier not hitting #2 at this point would be to let him spend a month hitting 8th just to see if he can get past his 2012 struggles and show he can do those things that the Twins (and I) believe that he can do. In a month, if he does, move him to the 2 spot.

 

I'm with you there. Dozier has the ability to be a good 2 hitter, but I want to see him prove it in the majors, first.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Yep. If Dozier can post a .350 OBP, he's a very good two hitter.

 

But that's an awfully big "if". Right now, he needs to prove he can hit with as little pressure on him as possible. He's fine in the eight slot for the time being.

[ThePuck]

Is there a rule that the #2 guy HAS to bunt and sacrifice?

 

Who is our manager again? He just got done describing what he looks for in a number two. He likes doing all that stuff with his number two when they are capable of it...and Mauer, of course, is.

[jokin]

Is there a rule that the #2 guy HAS to bunt and sacrifice?

 

Certainly not in the AL East, where the "unwritten rule" is now that the #2 guy should NOT bunt and sacrifice. For that matter, the AL has only a few disciples left who join Gardy in their neanderthal-ic thinking about the relative value of wasting multiple valuable "outs" at the top of the order each game by placing clearly inferior hitters who, although they might demonstrate the ability to "battle their tails off" and "keep getting after it", should clearly be at the bottom of the order.

[jay]

Yep. If Dozier can post a .350 OBP, he's a very good two hitter.

 

I'd be perfectly happy with Mauer batting third if we were getting .350 OBP from #2.

 

However, the stats on mlb.com show:

2012 - .321 (thanks, Ben)

2011 - .289

2010 - .321

So, we certainly haven't been getting that level of production.

 

With a bit more pop through to the bottom of the lineup, I think it makes even more sense to have Mauer bat second than it does to have Parm/Plouffe bat 8th.

[diehardtwinsfan]

and prior to 2010, I'm guessing that OBP was more like 2011.

[ashbury]

This thread is going in 4-5 different directions.

 

Well, it's basically my fault. I didn't see a thread for the day's game, I wanted to make a tangential comment that I didn't think was worth a thread of its own, and this thread was already discussing an aspect of the game so I thought it might fit. No intent to threadjack, but mea culpa anyway.

[jokin]

and prior to 2010, I'm guessing that OBP was more like 2011.

 

The 2-hole has never produced a .350 OBP hitting rate in the Gardy era. The closest was in 2006, with an OBP of .349, which happened to be career years for LNP and Castillo. Regarding the AL East's favorite stat in the 2-hole, OPS- that year was also the highest for the Twins for OPS in the 2-hole- a lowly .726. Only 2 other times in 11 years was the OPS greater than .700 (07 & 08).

 

Besides that OBP out-year of 2006, the Twins #2-hole OBP has never been above .326 and (maybe not so?) incredibly, 4 times in 11 years the OBP was actually below .300.

[jokin]

I'd be perfectly happy with Mauer batting third if we were getting .350 OBP from #2.

 

However, the stats on mlb.com show:

2012 - .321 (thanks, Ben)

2011 - .289

2010 - .321

So, we certainly haven't been getting that level of production.

 

With a bit more pop through to the bottom of the lineup, I think it makes even more sense to have Mauer bat second than it does to have Parm/Plouffe bat 8th.

 

Absolutely. As I've stated before, I'd even give Parmelee a chance at #2 if Gardy is so deadset against moving up Mauer, although I noticed today that Mauer has been moved up to #2 and Dozier moved down to #8, so maybe there is hope that Gardy is finally getting it?

[Guest USAFChief]

The 2-hole has never produced a .350 OBP hitting rate in the Gardy era. The closest was in 2006, with an OBP of .349, which happened to be career years for LNP and Castillo. Regarding the AL East's favorite stat in the 2-hole, OPS- that year was also the highest for the Twins for OPS in the 2-hole- a lowly .726. Only 2 other times in 11 years was the OPS greater than .700 (07 & 08).

 

Besides that OBP out-year of 2006, the Twins #2-hole OBP has never been above .326 and (maybe not so?) incredibly, 4 times in 11 years the OBP was actually below .300.

 

You're not factoring in SPEED!

[jokin]

You're not factoring in SPEED!

 

(In a loud internet-board voice): "Paging ClearBlueSky....!"