Nick Gordon

[yeahyabetcha]

2 hours ago, TheLeviathan said:

On the flip side....why is there a rush to declare him a bench player when he was a top pick and a top prospect at various times in his development?

There are a lot of strawmen floating around in this thread and demanding he be Ozzie and Cal Ripkin (in jest or not) is a part of that.  It isn't ridiculous the Twins haven't been playing him, but it will be if they continue to sit him on the bench during a lost season.  At that point, send him down and play him every day at whatever position you want him at.  He can't get better (and might actually get worse) sitting day in and day out.  At the same time, given his pedigree, it isn't ridiculous to want to see what this kid has to offer.  

That's all I want: Let the team decide where he plays and give the kid regular playing time before the year is out.

You might get your wish that he gets sent down.  Sounds like Cave might be back soon…..

[Dodecahedron]

30 minutes ago, a-wan said:

No, they signed Simmons because Polanco isn't an everyday SS. Gordon would not have factored in one iota into the Simmons signing. Gordon was a border-line bust, who missed all of last year due to COVID.

Gordon isn't a "bust", but yes many people around here had/have him rated higher than he is.  He will be a close-to-average-but-probably-below-average hitter.  That's fine for his position if his defense works out.

Yes, Gordon factored into the decision to sign Simmons, of course.  Simmons was always a weird signing in my eyes, the only logical reason for the signing at all is if the Twins felt Gordon was not ready.  If they signed Simmons for any other reason, we can chalk this up to another bizarre decision that backfired on them this year.

[Brock Beauchamp]

1 hour ago, Dodecahedron said:

Gordon isn't a "bust", but yes many people around here had/have him rated higher than he is.  He will be a close-to-average-but-probably-below-average hitter.  That's fine for his position if his defense works out.

Yes, Gordon factored into the decision to sign Simmons, of course.  Simmons was always a weird signing in my eyes, the only logical reason for the signing at all is if the Twins felt Gordon was not ready.  If they signed Simmons for any other reason, we can chalk this up to another bizarre decision that backfired on them this year.

The Simmons signing was almost definitely due to Polanco and Gordon had little to do with any of the Twins’ plans this season.

No way were the Twins, coming off back to back .600 winning percentage seasons, heavily influenced by a declining prospect that missed an entire season due to an illness they weren’t sure he would completely recover from this year or ever.

On top of all that, the Twins seem pretty solidly convinced Gordon isn’t a AA shortstop, much less a major league shortstop. 

[Dodecahedron]

2 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

On top of all that, the Twins seem pretty solidly convinced Gordon isn’t a AA shortstop, much less a major league shortstop. 

This is a very strong opinion given the fact that the only games he has ever played outside of the middle infield are the games he played in center field this year, all in the majors, all while Buxton is out.  Are you saying Gordon is the CF of the future?  Seems like a bold statement.  If that's not what you are saying, are you saying the Twins gave up on him as an infielder?  This seems equally bold for the same reason.  It seems more likely that he is blocked from playing in the infield and the Twins are desperate to replace Buxton.  

Gordon has played his entire career in the minors in the middle infield, mostly at SS, and he had one bad season there statistically, when he was 5 years younger than the average player in AAA.  This was three years ago.

The Twins felt he wasn't ready because he sat out 2020.  This would have been a natural thing to feel and it would be hard to find anyone who disagrees with their decision.  

I never felt that Gordon was going to light it up in the majors, but it's pie in the sky to believe that the Twins don't plan for him to be the a starter at SS in the future.  It will happen, either when Simmons is traded this year or next year if Simmons is not traded.

[stringer bell]

I don’t know when it was decided, but right now the Twins believe Nick Gordon is inferior defensively to Jorge Polanco as a shortstop. And the Twins acquired a shortstop so that they could move Polanco off the shortstop position. 
 

I hope Gordon gets a chance to prove that he can hit enough and also whether he can play shortstop. If he can’t play shortstop acceptably, he’s very marginal as a major league player. 

[Twinsrtheworst]

On 7/12/2021 at 9:52 AM, Brock Beauchamp said:

I understand the desire to see Gordon play more but we aren't within a country mile of "ridiculous", in my opinion.

The trade deadline is in less than three weeks and the Twins are pretty obviously showcasing pretty much their entire roster for possible trade candidates. In the here and now, that is the right decision. Nick Gordon should not be playing over the likes of Arraez, Kirilloff, Larnach, et al for obvious reasons. They're all better players and building blocks to the next good Twins team. Gordon also shouldn't be playing over the likes of Sano, Cruz, Simmons, Donaldson, et al because if the Twins can trade those guys in the next three weeks, they will eagerly do so. Teams don't maximize trade value of a player by not playing them in the lead-up to the deadline.

Be patient. There is a full two months of baseball after the deadline. If Gordon isn't receiving significant playing time in those two months, I'll likely be standing right next to you in the "ridiculous" camp of arguments.

I'm not sure Cruz needs to be showcased for a trade...do you?  I think teams know what he brings..  Sano is near untradeable, don't you agree?  

[Brock Beauchamp]

1 hour ago, Dodecahedron said:

I never felt that Gordon was going to light it up in the majors, but it's pie in the sky to believe that the Twins don't plan for him to be the a starter at SS in the future.  It will happen, either when Simmons is traded this year or next year if Simmons is not traded.

What gives you this impression? The Twins have played Gordon less and less at shortstop as he progressed through the minors. Reports from the likes of Gleeman (and multiple third party scouting reports) suggest he's probably not a major league shortstop.

Will he get starts at shortstop? Sure, absolutely, I think his role likely ends up as a utility guy. Will he be the starter at shortstop as Plan A going into a season? Yikes, I do not see that happening and have not seen evidence that's even on anyone's radar at this point.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Just now, se7799 said:

I'm not sure Cruz needs to be showcased for a trade...do you?  I think teams know what he brings..  Sano is near untradeable, don't you agree?  

Pull literally any guy out of the lineup before the trade deadline and it's an invitation for skepticism and questioning by potential trade partners.

[Twinsrtheworst]

5 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Pull literally any guy out of the lineup before the trade deadline and it's an invitation for skepticism and questioning by potential trade partners.

Not saying to put anybody out of the lineup permanently, but Gordon could rotate at ss, 2nd, do, cf and so on for at bats.  I don't believe resting Cruz or Sano every few days would affect there trade value either way.

[Brock Beauchamp]

53 minutes ago, se7799 said:

Not saying to put anybody out of the lineup permanently, but Gordon could rotate at ss, 2nd, do, cf and so on for at bats.  I don't believe resting Cruz or Sano every few days would affect there trade value either way.

That’s fair and, frankly, probably the right decision.  

[LA Vikes Fan]

19 hours ago, stringer bell said:

I don’t know when it was decided, but right now the Twins believe Nick Gordon is inferior defensively to Jorge Polanco as a shortstop. And the Twins acquired a shortstop so that they could move Polanco off the shortstop position. 
 

I hope Gordon gets a chance to prove that he can hit enough and also whether he can play shortstop. If he can’t play shortstop acceptably, he’s very marginal as a major league player. 

I agree. I don't think Gordon hits well enough to play anywhere other than SS for the Twins on a regular basis, with Polanco and Arraez around to man 2B. I guess the one thing I wonder is whether he can actually play SS at Polanco's level or better. I would like to see the Twins give him an opportunity to be the everyday SS for 4-6 weeks whether it's a AAA now (JT Riddle is not, and never will be, the answer at SS) or at the MLB level after a trade of Simmons. I may be whistling in the wind because the team may think they already know he can't play SS, but I guess I'd like to see him get the opportunity given the paucity of other options in the organization. I hope he gets that opportunity this year in the second half of a lost season. If he can't paly SS, he's an MLB utility infielder/OF at best and probably winds up going to another organization in the next year or two.  

[bean5302]

Okay, I'll bite. First, the Twins MiLB staff and scouts are certainly not infalliable. Mitch Garver wasn't considered MLB level talent until he absolutely forced his way onto the roster with an opportunity only granted because of the unplayable performance of John Ryan Murphy who the Twins acquired for Aaron Hicks, the failure of the Twins to protect their "top" catching prospect in Stuart Turner who was selected in the rule 5 draft by the Reds and an injury to the Twins' starting catcher, Jason Castro. All of that happened in 2016-2017, giving Garver a surprise shot. Turns out, the Twins were wrong and Garver can play catcher.

Aside from that, the Twins haven't given up on Gordon at shortstop as evidenced by the fact he has been playing shortstop in a majority of his time for every single season, including this one, across his MiLB career. When a team gives up on a player being able to handle shortstop, it looks like Jose Miranda or Miguel Sano... or Jorge Polanco who played every single inning at 2B in Rochester for his final MiLB season in 2016 before he was forced into playing shortstop at the MLB level out of desperation.

Even so, I'd expect the Twins front office knows better as to whether or not Nick Gordon should be playing shortstop than I do. I get that. The absolute confidence Gordon can't possibly handle shortstop and the seemingly popular exasperated response to me believing it's worth a shot to test him doesn't seem rational to me.

[Dodecahedron]

20 hours ago, bean5302 said:

Okay, I'll bite. First, the Twins MiLB staff and scouts are certainly not infalliable. Mitch Garver wasn't considered MLB level talent until he absolutely forced his way onto the roster with an opportunity only granted because of the unplayable performance of John Ryan Murphy who the Twins acquired for Aaron Hicks, the failure of the Twins to protect their "top" catching prospect in Stuart Turner who was selected in the rule 5 draft by the Reds and an injury to the Twins' starting catcher, Jason Castro. All of that happened in 2016-2017, giving Garver a surprise shot. Turns out, the Twins were wrong and Garver can play catcher.

Aside from that, the Twins haven't given up on Gordon at shortstop as evidenced by the fact he has been playing shortstop in a majority of his time for every single season, including this one, across his MiLB career. When a team gives up on a player being able to handle shortstop, it looks like Jose Miranda or Miguel Sano... or Jorge Polanco who played every single inning at 2B in Rochester for his final MiLB season in 2016 before he was forced into playing shortstop at the MLB level out of desperation.

Even so, I'd expect the Twins front office knows better as to whether or not Nick Gordon should be playing shortstop than I do. I get that. The absolute confidence Gordon can't possibly handle shortstop and the seemingly popular exasperated response to me believing it's worth a shot to test him doesn't seem rational to me.

To be fair, I don't know if the Twins thought Garver could not play catcher, or if the fans around here thought that.

I was scratching my head a bit about how many people around here believe Gordon is not in the Twins future plans in the middle IF.  When it was pointed out that Gleeman expressed an opinion on it, suddenly it made sense (and there was not much point in continuing the conversation).  There is no evidence that the Twins plan to put Gordon anywhere except in the middle infield when they believe he is ready, just like there was no evidence that Garver was not in the team's plans.

[Brock Beauchamp]

14 minutes ago, Dodecahedron said:

When it was pointed out that Gleeman expressed an opinion on it, suddenly it made sense (and there was not much point in continuing the conversation).

I don't know what this is supposed to mean but Gleeman talks to the people working in the Twins organization more than every person on this forum combined. Whether you like him or not, his opinion should be given weight on matters such as this because he's often talking from a position of knowledge. He was one of the first people talking up Ryan Jeffers because people in the Twins organization were so excited about the guy and why he was a sneaky-good draft pick.

[Trov]

For me, we are at that point in the season were we will not be making playoffs so why not see what the kid can do.  Put him out there every day.  Clearly the organization has very low view of him based on how they have progressed him, and used him at this level, even when he did start out hot.  You can either see if he fits into any kind of plans or hopefully showcase him for possible trade to a team that see potential.  

To just have him sit on the bench tells the majority of the league you value him very low and would not be surprised if he is up for a DFA either this off-season or during next season.  Play him, see what he can do, and there may be a team willing to trade for him.  

[bean5302]

I think we're beating a dead horse at this point, and it seems this dead horse refuses resurrect itself, get back up and pull the wagon again. Stupid horse. I've probably been a little aggressive on the subject since I'm having a heck of a time fixing a cascade of issues on a car that just refuses to be repaired, lol.

[Dodecahedron]

3 hours ago, Trov said:

For me, we are at that point in the season were we will not be making playoffs so why not see what the kid can do.  Put him out there every day.  Clearly the organization has very low view of him based on how they have progressed him, and used him at this level, even when he did start out hot. 

I wouldn't read into that.  Kepler was kept in the minors the maximum amount of time possible, even though his performance in the minors was good.  There's a difference between an org thinking someone is "not ready" and thinking someone is "not ever."

If the Twins figured out Gordon's bat isn't that special for a team that is focused on "bombas", well, welcome to five years ago.  But his bat is good enough to play in the majors.  I don't know enough about his defense, but considering his first games outside of the middle infield came this year, he has only played in CF, and only since Buxton was injured, I'm sure the Twins don't have any major concerns there.  It's like you say, they are trying to get his bat in the lineup to see what he can do.  He's blocked from playing his natural position by ten million dollars.

[Brock Beauchamp]

27 minutes ago, Dodecahedron said:

I wouldn't read into that.  Kepler was kept in the minors the maximum amount of time possible, even though his performance in the minors was good.

I mean, that's not really true, though. Kepler was promising but undeveloped until he hit AA, where he broke out and spent basically the entire season. In both A and A+ ball, he OPSed in the low .700s, pretty bad offensive numbers for a corner OF/1B guy, which he mostly was at the time.

After that, he only had a handful of PAs in AAA, was called to Minnesota for a cup of coffee, returned to AAA for another ~120 PAs, then returned to Minnesota to stay. He was 23 years old the last day he spent in the minor leagues, which is pretty young for a guy who only started playing baseball as a teenager.

Other than keeping him in AA for so long, which I guess wasn't terribly surprising given his yo-yo performance up to that point and how raw he was in the lower minors, he moved through the minors at a relatively brisk pace.

Here are his numbers before AA. He didn't exactly light the world on fire.

Year	Age	AgeDif	Tm	Lg	Lev	Aff	G	PA	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	SB	CS	BB	SO	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS	TB	GDP	HBP	SH	SF	IBB
2010	17	-2.6	Twins	GULF	Rk	MIN	37	153	140	15	40	6	1	0	11	6	1	13	27	.286	.346	.343	.689	48	1	0	0	0	0
2011	18	-2.5	Elizabethton	APPY	Rk	MIN	50	221	191	29	50	11	3	1	24	1	1	23	54	.262	.347	.366	.714	70	6	3	2	2	0
2012	19	-1.2	Elizabethton	APPY	Rk	MIN	59	269	232	40	69	16	5	10	49	7	0	27	33	.297	.387	.539	.925	125	5	8	0	2	0
2013	20	-1.4	Cedar Rapids	MIDW	A	MIN	61	263	236	35	56	11	3	9	40	2	0	24	43	.237	.312	.424	.736	100	2	2	0	1	1
2014	21	-1.7	Fort Myers	FLOR	A+	MIN	102	407	364	53	96	20	6	5	59	6	2	34	62	.264	.333	.393	.726	143	4	5	2	2	0

[Dodecahedron]

4 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

I mean, that's not really true, though. Kepler was promising but undeveloped until he hit AA, where he broke out and spent basically the entire season. In both A and A+ ball, he OPSed in the low .700s, pretty bad offensive numbers for a corner OF/1B guy, which he mostly was at the time.

After that, he only had a handful of PAs in AAA, was called to Minnesota for a cup of coffee, returned to AAA for another ~120 PAs, then returned to Minnesota to stay. He was 23 years old the last day he spent in the minor leagues, which is pretty young for a guy who only started playing baseball as a teenager.

Other than keeping him in AA for so long, which I guess wasn't terribly surprising given his yo-yo performance up to that point and how raw he was in the lower minors, he moved through the minors at a relatively brisk pace.

You're forgetting that he was on the Twins 40-man roster much of that time.  By the time he started a season in the majors, he had no options left.  The Twins had to use him or get rid of him, they left themselves no runway and left themselves no ability to send him down if he needed it.  This is not a "brisk pace."

[Brock Beauchamp]

7 minutes ago, Dodecahedron said:

You're forgetting that he was on the Twins 40-man roster much of that time.  By the time he started a season in the majors, he had no options left.  The Twins had to use him or get rid of him, they left themselves no runway and left themselves no ability to send him down if he needed it.  This is not a "brisk pace."

That's often the case with international signings who struggle, though. They start at such a young age and are often so undeveloped, yet teams get little extra time to get them to the majors that they end up burning a ton of options in the minors.

And while Kepler didn't technically start 2016 in the majors his first game in Minnesota was April 10th, which was the sixth game of the MLB season.

[jorgenswest]

As I read he Athletic I read the work of Aaron Gleeman different than I read the work of Dan Hayes.

My lens for Dan Hayes is that of a reporter. He reported in June when Gordon had played 2B and CF to that point that 3B and SS were a possibility. As a whole I see it as Gordon continuing to regain strength and I don’t think the door is closed on shortstop.

My lens for Aaron Gleeman is that of a columnist where his own analysis and opinion come more into play. Aaron in a mailbag assessed that Gordon does not have the glove to be a starting shortstop. His assessment has significant value but I read it as his thoughts and not the Twin thoughts on Gordon (at least long term).

I believe the reality is with both. Let Gordon continue to rebuild his strength while playing 2B and CF this year without closing the door on the possibility that another healthy off season opens the door for shortstop next year.

 

[Brock Beauchamp]

1 minute ago, jorgenswest said:

As I read he Athletic I read the work of Aaron Gleeman different than I read the work of Dan Hayes.

My lens for Dan Hayes is that of a reporter. He reported in June when Gordon had played 2B and CF to that point that 3B and SS were a possibility. As a whole I see it as Gordon continuing to regain strength and I don’t think the door is closed on shortstop.

My lens for Aaron Gleeman is that of a columnist where his own analysis and opinion come more into play. Aaron in a mailbag assessed that Gordon does not have the glove to be a starting shortstop. His assessment has significant value but I read it as his thoughts and not the Twin thoughts on Gordon (at least long term).

I believe the reality is with both. Let Gordon continue to rebuild his strength while playing 2B and CF this year without closing the door on the possibility that another healthy off season opens the door for shortstop next year.

Sure, I seriously doubt the door is closed on anything at this point but not closing the door and the guy being Plan A are considerably different.

I think we’d all love if Gordon bounced back from Covid stronger and faster than ever, turning into a good MLB shortstop in the process but I don’t think anyone is holding their breath waiting for that to happen. 

[TheLeviathan]

What Gleeman/Gordon conversation are you guys circling around for reference?

[Brock Beauchamp]

39 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

What Gleeman/Gordon conversation are you guys circling around for reference?

I know he’s mentioned things in The Athletic but can’t recall specifically where. He’s said quite a few things on the podcast as well. IIRC there were doubts about Gordon even being protected on the 40-man last winter. 

[jorgenswest]

33 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

What Gleeman/Gordon conversation are you guys circling around for reference?

Athletic Mailbag June 21?