Does Aaron Make It In All-Time Best Outfield?

[dex8425]

No mention of Rickey Henderson in this thread yet either. My all time outfield would be Ruth, Williams, Mays. 

 

Trout has a better than outside chance of surpassing Willie Mays as the greatest CF of all time. That said, I would've said the same thing about Griffey during his 20's. 

[strumdatjaguar]

I did include Rickey Henderson in my original post. Once he got to first base, he terrorized pitchers!

[Trov]

First, picking top 3 OF of all time is barely even possible to limit to 3.  It is also difficult to compare across eras as well.  I mean if Ruth got put into todays game how would he do?  If Trout got put in Ruth era how would he do?  We do not know.  I never try to compare across eras because so many things have changed over time.  The pitching velocity for one.  The amount of time players spend preparing.  Ruth dominated his era, but you cannot say he would dominate this era.  To even compare pre integration with post is difficult. 

 

If you block out some of the top players because they were black, are you really that good?  If you want to compare were is Ichiro on your list?  He has all time baseball hits, just not all time MLB hits because he spent many years in Japan.  That is not his fault that is where he was playing.  If you want to include all the pre-integration numbers you should use Japan numbers too.  If White players were hitting off of weaker pitching, or pitching against weaker hitting because they would refuse to allow better talent in their game, you should discount the numbers they put up as well.  

 

[ToddlerHarmon]

Oof, this is about impossible.

 

What if Ruth hadn't pitched, or started playing after dead ball?

What if Ruth, Cobb, and Williams had played against the Negro Leaguers of the day?

Can any player from before Jackie Robinson be considered to have played against the best competition of their day?

What if Cool Papa Bell had to face Walter Johnson?

What if Bonds hadn't used PEDs? Did Aaron and Mays (greenies were all the rage)?

What if any hitter from before 1990 had to face 4 ripped millionaires throwing 90-MPH sliders every game?

 

But, to throw in my two cents, you have this:

 

If you like rate stats, wRC+ has Ruth (197) and Williams (188) head and shoulders above the rest (Bonds 173, Trout 172, Mantle 170, Cobb 165, Joe Jackson 165), which of course is batting only

 

If you like counting stats, however, WAR has Ruth (169) and Bonds (164) on his heels due to longevity and defense, then Mays and Cobb 19 WAR behind Ruth, then Aaron 30 WAR back at 136, which makes Williams' 130 very impressive, considering the chunks taken out of his career

 

If you kinda spitball between the two, and (unfairly!) take the on-field stats as the whole measure, it seems like Ruth, then Bonds, Cobb, and Williams in some order.

 

Mays and Aaron weren't the same hitters, Trout ain't done, and Mantle and Jackson didn't have long enough careers to catch that foursome.

[Cap'n Piranha]

Ted Williams is the greatest all-around batter in baseball history.  His lowest OBP ever was .372, in the year in which he turned 41--that was also the only year his OPS was ever below 1.000.  The next year, when he turned 42, his OBP was .451, and he OPS'd 1.096 (for comparison's sake, Mike Trout has more seasons under a 1.000 OPS than above, and has never been higher than a 1.088 OPS; Ted Williams, by OPS, was at age 41/42 a better batter than Mike Trout has ever been).

 

For his career, Williams took almost 3 walks for every strikeout.  He had FIVE seasons with an OBP over .500, and finished with a .482 career OBP.  His strikeout rate climbed above 10% only once (if you exclude the 1952 season where he only played in 6 games), and that was in his final season, playing at 41/42.  He also recorded 1.6 extra base hits for every strikeout, and only had one season with more strikeouts than XBH (1959, his penultimate season).  Mike Trout has never had a season with more XBH than strikeouts.

 

As has been mentioned, Williams lost 3 entire seasons to war, the vast majority of another (1952, only 6 games played), and most of a fifth (1953, only 37 games played).  From 1941 through 1954, excluding the two shortened seasons, Williams averaged 33 homers a season--give him 165 more homers (while taking away the 14 he actually hit in 1952-1953), and he finishes with 672 homers--more than anyone not named Ruth, Aaron, or Bonds).

 

Williams had the peak performance (4 straight seasons of WAR above 10.5; it probably would have been 7 if not for WWII).  Williams had the longevity (13 individual seasons above 6 WAR, with the last coming 18 years after the first).  Add to the fact that Williams defense and baserunning was generally a negative, and the fact he compiled as much WAR as he did is remarkable.  To wit, Mike Trout's best ever wRC+ is 188; that is Ted William's career average wRC+.

[Mike Sixel]

If Hank Aaron can acknowledge Bonds' greatness, we can......

 

But, fine.....Aaron is in my top 3.

[prouster]

LF-CF-RF . . . Ruth-Mays-Aaron . . . I win.

This is the correct answer.

[TopGunn#22]

That's a VERY good top three prouster.  And that's what makes this discussion so spirited and so good.

 

There really isn't a wrong answer.  I think Bonds is a cheater so he's not in my top three.

He's not even in the discussion.

But Mike Sixel isn't wrong for wanting to include him and even have him in his top three.

 

And yup.

 

How could I have not even mentioned Ricky Henderson.  My Bad. He's certainly in the discussion.

[Dantes929]

Here is some interesting stuff.    I only spent 5 minutes on it cuz that is all I have time for but I think too much credit is given for old timey guys and too much credit for longevity.   I looked at MVP winners and runner ups totals and I think you end up with Bonds, Williams and Trout with Mantle right in the mix.  If you want to take Bonds out of the mix fine but the guy was MVP of his league 7 times.   I know there was only one league but Ruth only had 1 MVP and one other year in the top 5.   Not sure how that is possible but Cobb didn't do much better and contemporary Lou Gehrig did very well.      Any opinions on how that can be?      Ok, never mind.  Apparently there was a period where you could only win one MVP for some reason.    Now you've got Ruth back in the mix with the 4 mentioned above.   I know MVP is rather arbitrary and Mays and Aaron have tons of years in the top 20 but I still take quality over quantity even in such rarified air.

[Cap'n Piranha]

 

Here is some interesting stuff.    I only spent 5 minutes on it cuz that is all I have time for but I think too much credit is given for old timey guys and too much credit for longevity.   I looked at MVP winners and runner ups totals and I think you end up with Bonds, Williams and Trout with Mantle right in the mix.  If you want to take Bonds out of the mix fine but the guy was MVP of his league 7 times.   I know there was only one league but Ruth only had 1 MVP and one other year in the top 5.   Not sure how that is possible but Cobb didn't do much better and contemporary Lou Gehrig did very well.      Any opinions on how that can be?      Ok, never mind.  Apparently there was a period where you could only win one MVP for some reason.    Now you've got Ruth back in the mix with the 4 mentioned above.   I know MVP is rather arbitrary and Mays and Aaron have tons of years in the top 20 but I still take quality over quantity even in such rarified air.

 

The link below explains much of the issue with Ruth's lack of MVP's.  To sum up, there was no MVP award given starting in 1915, until a new version was instituted for the 1922 season.  That award lasted until 1929, and could not be won by the same player twice.  The current iteration of the MVP award did not start until 1931--Ruth never won one of these, and really only had the numbers to merit consideration in 1931 and 1932.

 

Lefty Grove won in 1931 on the strength of his 31 wins across 288 IP with a 2.06 ERA--he was the ace of an A's team that won 107 games and lost the World Series in Game 7.  Jimmie Foxx won in 1932, based on his .364/.469/.749 slash line (1.218 OPS) with 58 homers and 169 RBI.  That was the right choice, as Foxx outdid Babe in all the major categories other than OBP, and was better by both WAR and wRC+ as well.  By 1933, Babe slipped to 6th in the league in WAR (Foxx won MVP again, with 50% more WAR than Babe), and in 1934, Babe only played in 125 games, and didn't qualify for the batting title--even if he did, he "only" put up 5.2 WAR in those 125 games, compared to Lou Gehrig's 10.7 in 154.  In 1935, Babe only played 28 games, recorded just 0.2 WAR, and never played again.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_League_Baseball_Most_Valuable_Player_Award