Article: Do the Tigers really have that much more money than the Twins?

[Mike Sixel]

The Tigers have more will to win. Whether that translates to wins is a different story. I would prefer the twins had more will, frankly. They get zero more of my money until I see evidence of that.

[JB_Iowa]

My point is that they are not gifting the money. They are making a loan with the expectation of getting paid back. Or they are getting shares of stock.

 

 

I don't know that anybody is loaning or gifting money in the case of the Tigers. It may simply be a willingness to forego a certain amount of profit. I haven't seen any figures that would indicate that the Tigers are running a deficit.

 

I do think that Ilitch wants to leave a legacy of a WS championship to Detroit -- and from his appearance this post-season, the window of opportunity to do so may not be that long. (He looks a lot more frail than some 83-year-olds that I know.)

[powrwrap]

I don't know that anybody is loaning or gifting money in the case of the Tigers. It may simply be a willingness to forego a certain amount of profit. I haven't seen any figures that would indicate that the Tigers are running a deficit.

 

That's a good point.

 

However, there are plenty of posts that say things like, "a business owner [should] take money out of his pocket" or "Pohlad's aren't going to spend money on their baseball team", or "Illitch can spend all the money he wants", or "The Tigers owner spends some of his own money out of pocket to improve the team" or "Illitch uses cash flow from his food empire to fund his baseball team". All of these statements presume that pro sports owners find funding outside of their team's profits. They presume that owners are 'cheap' if they don't want to make personal loans to the team so the team can buy free agents.

 

Would I like it if the Pohlad's loaned the Twins $200M with no expectation of getting paid back with the purpose being the acquisition of free agents with which to win a World Series? Yes, I'd love it. But I don't expect them to, nor do I expect any reasonable owner to do so.

[Jim H]

I don't really care how much money the Tigers choose to spend. It is a fact that some franchises can/choose to spend more than others. In this case the Tigers just replaced Delmon Young with Torii Hunter spending a lot more money on Hunter than they did on Young. Now, at 37 Hunter is still likely a better all around player than Young. But his offensive numbers aren't likely to be a lot better if he can stay healthy, which isn't a given.

 

I don't think anyone here really wanted Hunter for the Twins at this point of his career for $13 million a year. That Detroit decided to do that, may limit other fixes that they can do this offseason. Even if it does not, their overspending for an aging player will have little effect on whether the Twins make themselves competitive in the Central Division in 2013.

[OldManWinter]

CDog earlier posted Twins vs Tigers records which I assume is correct and reflects a long-term commitment to the Twins so I don't agree with the "lack of wanting to win theorists".

 

It is sort of a standoff if the team ties payroll to revenues and fans won't buy tickets if team does not spend. If you enjoy the game buy a ticket, if not try fishing

 

Team needs to figure a way out of morass, they need to be smart about players they sign. It is not about spending, it is about spending wisely in a highly competitive market when your competition needs something more than you are willing to spend or has some unique reason to outbid you.

 

My perception is that the Pohlad family has money invested funding many projects and businesses.

 

Lets say that maybe they are actually being asked to not fund a new entrepreneur and instead resign Hunter for $26 mil or Baker who has not proven himself for $7.5 mil?

 

Which do any of you think is a better investment for Minnesotans as a whole?

 

It is not as if the Pohlad family has a room full of money like King Midas.

[Jack Torse]

This was my comment in a Nick Nelson post, a month ago, about almost the same topic.

 

Jim Pohlad said last off season that he had a difficult time investing more money into a 99 loss team. I doubt 96 losses changes his thinking much. I think we know where next season's payroll is headed. Looks like two nights of golf league next summer

 

It's not even Thanksgiving yet so lets cut the Pohlads some slack with next years payroll already. That being said, I doubt they do much and with Scott Diamond as the only pitcher on the books, not much will matter for next season. What they really need to do is blow it up sort of like Florida did. The interesting aspect is how and when they are going to throw Gardy under the bus. If it wasn't a guy's career it would be comical but it's going to be baseball's version of Pickets charge.

[clutterheart]

Twins and Marlins might officially ruin any argument for a Public Funded Stadium.

 

Time for the voters of Hen, county to demand a refund - I would LOVE to see that on the ballot.

[Riverbrian]

I seriously could care less about payroll... and I think its flat out crazy to assume that the amount of money spent is some sort of proof that a team wants it more.

 

The Tigers and Twins are simply in different places right now. After reaching the WS and a pitching staff of Verlander, Scherzer, Fister. The Tigers would be idiots to not go after someone like Hunter in consideration of the squad they have returning. This puts the Tigers in one boat and the Twins are clearly in a other boat.

 

Someday(hopefully soon but maybe not) the tables will turn and somebody on a Tigers chat board will be saying the same about the Twins.

[Kwak]

I think that there is a difference in business philosophies between the Pohlads and Illitch. Illitch (it appears) uses the free cash flow from his food empire to fund his sports empire. It appears that Illitch is doing the same for the Detroit Tigers.

 

You're speculating. Unless the Tigers and the Red Wings are legally under the same business entity there is a separation, "a corporate wall" between the two. Of course the Red Wings could loan money to the Tigers, but there would be an accounting and reporting of such on their tax returns.

 

The Pohlads may (it looks that way to me) be using the the free cash flow from their sports empire to fund their other businesses--especially real estate.

 

Same idea here. The Twins are a limited liability corporation and probably have no legal connection between the Pohlad's real estate businesses. If the Pohlad's want to loan the Twins money they could do so. Or if the Minnesota Twins LLC want to loan the real estate business money they could. You don't really think the Pohlad's take their profits from the Twins and deposit it into the real estate business bank account as if it were a gift, do you?

That's not what I said. I said FCF from food empire--pizzas etc. Used to invest in sports--the Red Wings and the Tigers. There is nothing about corporate entities. Illitch's money (after it leaves the corporation--though it may be in a trust) is simply invested elsewhere (sports) there is no violation of law involved.

[70charger]

I seriously could care less about payroll... and I think its flat out crazy to assume that the amount of money spent is some sort of proof that a team wants it more.

 

The Tigers and Twins are simply in different places right now. After reaching the WS and a pitching staff of Verlander, Scherzer, Fister. The Tigers would be idiots to not go after someone like Hunter in consideration of the squad they have returning. This puts the Tigers in one boat and the Twins are clearly in a other boat.

 

Someday(hopefully soon but maybe not) the tables will turn and somebody on a Tigers chat board will be saying the same about the Twins.

 

 

Oh come on. Now you're just being ridiculous. Posting logical arguments on a message board. What's wrong with you!?

[glunn]

Why are the Twins local TV revenues so low compared with the Tigers and a lot of other teams? Don't they have a fairly big territory? Would a better broadcast team help?

[Road Grays]

The only thing Twins fans have right now is a shiny new ballpark and the pleasure of watching Joe Mauer compete for batting titles. Both of those things are awesome. But unless that is all we need to be satisfied as supporters of this club, then this organization needs to take drastic action. We are in a terrible division and we haven't even been close to competitive for two years. We have no choice but to blow it up and attempt to restock. Pathetic attempts at remaining competitive, while we are in fact circling the drain, wreck my head. I will take very little pleasure in watching the remaining years of Joe Mauer's prime if it is wasted by a team that thinks Jason Marquis and Joel Zumaya are the way forward.

 

BUT, I have very little faith in ownership taking any kind of bold action to move the franchise in a different direction or in their general willingness to win. The ballpark will continue printing large piles of money for the Pohlads, and it will be business as usual for them despite how much the team's core fans may want to watch compelling baseball played there.

 

Which sucks, because idiot that I am, I really like this ****ing team.

[Riverbrian]

I seriously could care less about payroll... and I think its flat out crazy to assume that the amount of money spent is some sort of proof that a team wants it more.

 

The Tigers and Twins are simply in different places right now. After reaching the WS and a pitching staff of Verlander, Scherzer, Fister. The Tigers would be idiots to not go after someone like Hunter in consideration of the squad they have returning. This puts the Tigers in one boat and the Twins are clearly in a other boat.

 

Someday(hopefully soon but maybe not) the tables will turn and somebody on a Tigers chat board will be saying the same about the Twins.

 

 

Oh come on. Now you're just being ridiculous. Posting logical arguments on a message board. What's wrong with you!?

 

This is his wife, he handed the iPad to me and asked me to answer the question what's wrong with him. He spends too much time on this website. He doesn't eat any vegetables unless I personally put it on a plate next to some meat. He doesn't drink enough water. He watches television and listens to music too loud. He likes Led Zeppelin, Tragically Hip and Neil Young and he makes me try to feel it. He snores and he only covers his mouth when he sneezes occasionally. He doesn't know how to fix his car or mine, He puts off little projects like replacing a door handle for 6 months. He mows the lawn in a square instead of lines and he waits until the grass is tall enough to hide the cat. He doesn't hang up the towel after he showers and he doesn't care if he uses my towel or our sons. He leaves the refrigerator open while he takes a swig of orange juice straight out of the bottle. He forgets to say thank you and forgets major dates like Birthdays, our Anniversary and Christmas. When he does shop for gifts he gets weird things like globes and welcome mats that say strange things. I got to get going because I actually have things to do in the morning. Hope everyone has a great day.

[powrwrap]

Why are the Twins local TV revenues so low compared with the Tigers and a lot of other teams? Don't they have a fairly big territory? Would a better broadcast team help?

 

Detroit is a bigger media market with 1.3 million more potential viewers. Therefore they are able to get more money for their TV contract.

[JB_Iowa]

LOL, thank you Mrs. Riverbrian for the insight!

[StormJH1]

Mrs. Riverbrian's post was EPIC, except if I let my wife answer like that for me, she'd either go on WAY too long with super embarrassing stuff, or just say something like "you spend too much time on dumb internet forums".

 

As for the original question, I have some perspective on this as a native Detroiter (22 years) who is now a proud Minnesota resident and Twins fan (last 10 years). While it's natural to become frustrated by the Detroit Tigers and their spending at times, you need to keep in mind that few teams are like the Tigers, and few owners (maybe none are like Mike Illitch). As any Detroit Red Wings fan will tell you, Illitch is the definition of a "fan owner". While he has other successful businesses (Little Caesar's Pizza, etc.), he doesn't own sports teams as "investments", he owns them because he loves sports and understands how a good sports team can become a part of an identity (especially a troubled identity like that of "Detroit").

 

While it would nice if the Pohlads and other owners were like Illitch, expecting them to be like that is extremely unfair, since few owners are. Illitch is also in mid-80's and a lot of people have noticed he appears to be in declining health. He's made the Red Wings Stanley Cup champions 4 times and appeared in 6 Finals. There's a sense that he knows the end might be near and he wants to see the Tigers to succeed in the same way before that time comes. If there's even a kernel of truth to that, it could help to explain signings like Fielder and Hunter that are great in the short-term, but don't make much long-term baseball sense.

 

Also, Tigers GM Dave Dombrowski was the Marlins GM during their first buying spree and subsequent sell-off in '97. It's pretty evident he has a special relationship with the Marlins that gave him in a "in" on deals for Miguel Cabrera and Anibal Sanchez, who obviously made a huge impact on that team.

 

The fact is that the Twins have "enough" payroll to succeed, whether you like it or not. Teams like the Giants and Cardinals won World Series with payrolls comparable to what we trotted out in 2010 and 2011. They were not "one free agent away" from winning they AL this season - they were fundamentally flawed as a roster, and that's on Bill Smith and Terry Ryan.

[savvyspy]

Its not just money which the Twins refuse to commit to on a consistent basis to be a championship team but the lack of talent evaluation to make what money they do spend pay off.

 

All you need to know about this is Miguel Cabrera made $2 million LESS than Joe Mauer. Cabrera only hit 13 points higher, hit 34 more HRs, and knocked in over 50 more runs. Prince Fielder makes the same as Mauer hits about the same for average and pitches in 20 more HRs and about 25 more RBIs.

 

Until the Twins stop having $37 million tied up in Mauer and Morneau, who combined to only hit 29 HR (less than either Fielder or Cabrera) and knock in 162 runs it doesn't matter what the budget is. Neither Mauer or Morneau make this team better whether they play or don't yet 40% of the payroll is tied to these guys. That makes no sense.

 

I mean this front office gave Nick Blackburn $5 million and he's the worst starting picher in 25 years.

 

The Tigers win because their front office knows what it takes to win. You need an ace at the top of the order and 2 big bats in the middle of the lineup and you build around that foundation. The Twins have made decades of excuses why they won't trade or sign for an ace or why they always draft starters that scouts say have #4 starter ceilings. The Tigers draft well and they spend on things that win you games, dominate pitching and big bats. The Twins spend money on a decent defensive catcher who hits a ton of singles and 40% of the rotation demands a "personal catcher" that's not him and $6 million set up guys that the manager likes not because he pitches well but will "take the ball" when he asks.

[Riverbrian]

LOL, thank you Mrs. Riverbrian for the insight!

 

Ain't she sweet... I just can't understand how "Down by the River" doesn't do the trick for her.

[LastOnePicked]

Its not just money which the Twins refuse to commit to on a consistent basis to be a championship team but the lack of talent evaluation to make what money they do spend pay off.

 

Yes. We have enough evidence of this already: Gardy's Spring Training 2011 assertion that Nishioka would be a Gold Glove contender, TR's claim that Jason Marquis was a strike-throwing innings eater and on and on. We're not just a few pitchers away from contention folks; we're an entire organizational culture away from contention. It no longer matters what will happen in a future season on the field -- it matters what will happen with ownership and management.

[Kwak]

Its not just money which the Twins refuse to commit to on a consistent basis to be a championship team but the lack of talent evaluation to make what money they do spend pay off.

 

Yes. We have enough evidence of this already: Gardy's Spring Training 2011 assertion that Nishioka would be a Gold Glove contender, TR's claim that Jason Marquis was a strike-throwing innings eater and on and on. We're not just a few pitchers away from contention folks; we're an entire organizational culture away from contention. It no longer matters what will happen in a future season on the field -- it matters what will happen with ownership and management.

 

+1

Ryan was fine as a GM for a bad team, with low payroll, that considered contraction a superior option to reinvestment. He trolls the garage sales, donation centers and the dumpsters in hopes to plug a hole or two--and justify his employment. The Twins are no longer viewing contraction, but clearly there have been some poor contracts and those must be "worked-out". I imagine all other GM candidates start with "I need complete control of all staff and a much larger operating budget..." and then he is "politely" told to leave--so the same management team simply changes chairs. Soon, the "bad" contracts will have been removed (except Mauer's--but he is a special case). When will ownership change philosophy?--IDK. But probably after attendence drops to ~1MM paid attendance per season.

[DaveW]

Why are the Twins local TV revenues so low compared with the Tigers and a lot of other teams? Don't they have a fairly big territory? Would a better broadcast team help?

 

Per capita the Twins get very good ratings, so a new broadcast team wouldn't help. The problem is the market size is pretty damn small, compared to the majority of other teams, for instance Detroit territory has significantly more people.

Yes Twins territory is large in size, but Iowa, South Dakota etc are very sparesly populated, and even Minneapolis pales compared to most other cities.

[Kwak]

Why are the Twins local TV revenues so low compared with the Tigers and a lot of other teams? Don't they have a fairly big territory? Would a better broadcast team help?

 

Per capita the Twins get very good ratings, so a new broadcast team wouldn't help. The problem is the market size is pretty damn small, compared to the majority of other teams, for instance Detroit territory has significantly more people.

Yes Twins territory is large in size, but Iowa, South Dakota etc are very sparesly populated, and even Minneapolis pales compared to most other cities.

 

A few years ago the Twins did attempt to establish their own TV station to broadcast the games from, but were blocked from obtaining a channel.

[JB_Iowa]

Phil Mackey had a pretty good column on local TV revenues: http://m.1500espn.com/pages/sportswire.php?sID=3956

 

Its not just market size but also number of households with cable/satellite, etc.

 

I've yet to see an article about how the market area outside the TC metro plays into the whole equation. I would guess satellite/cable subscriptions are higher in outlying areas (I know they are where I live) but the number of households is much sparser. And then you have the whole question of the state of Iowa being included in the TV "market" of 6 different teams -- seems to me that Iowa probably doesn't add to any teams market base.

[glunn]

Why are the Twins local TV revenues so low compared with the Tigers and a lot of other teams? Don't they have a fairly big territory? Would a better broadcast team help?

 

Per capita the Twins get very good ratings, so a new broadcast team wouldn't help. The problem is the market size is pretty damn small, compared to the majority of other teams, for instance Detroit territory has significantly more people.

Yes Twins territory is large in size, but Iowa, South Dakota etc are very sparesly populated, and even Minneapolis pales compared to most other cities.

 

Thanks for clearing this up for me.

[Teddy]

I guess the banking industry doesn't pay as well as the crappy pizza industry.

[kab21]

Teams run in cycles. It's pretty simple - The Twins got old and they had terrible injury luck the last two seasons. I know that everyone is frustrated by the losing but 120+M teams filled with 30+ yr old players isn't how you rebuild a team. If the Twins hadn't lost pretty much their entire starting rotation to injuries/ineffectiveness they would be winning and the payroll would be in the 110-120M range.

[StormJH1]

Its not just money which the Twins refuse to commit to on a consistent basis to be a championship team but the lack of talent evaluation to make what money they do spend pay off.

 

All you need to know about this is Miguel Cabrera made $2 million LESS than Joe Mauer. Cabrera only hit 13 points higher, hit 34 more HRs, and knocked in over 50 more runs. Prince Fielder makes the same as Mauer hits about the same for average and pitches in 20 more HRs and about 25 more RBIs.

 

Until the Twins stop having $37 million tied up in Mauer and Morneau, who combined to only hit 29 HR (less than either Fielder or Cabrera) and knock in 162 runs it doesn't matter what the budget is. Neither Mauer or Morneau make this team better whether they play or don't yet 40% of the payroll is tied to these guys. That makes no sense.

 

I mean this front office gave Nick Blackburn $5 million and he's the worst starting picher in 25 years.

 

The Tigers win because their front office knows what it takes to win. You need an ace at the top of the order and 2 big bats in the middle of the lineup and you build around that foundation. The Twins have made decades of excuses why they won't trade or sign for an ace or why they always draft starters that scouts say have #4 starter ceilings. The Tigers draft well and they spend on things that win you games, dominate pitching and big bats. The Twins spend money on a decent defensive catcher who hits a ton of singles and 40% of the rotation demands a "personal catcher" that's not him and $6 million set up guys that the manager likes not because he pitches well but will "take the ball" when he asks.

Partially true. People also forget that the Tigers do things like sign Dontrelle Willis to 3 years, $29 million, then watched it blow up on a Hideki Irabu-like level of disaster. Of course, the Mauer vs. Cabrera portion of your rant is absolutely true - Mauer was essentially paid for having a single "Cabrera lite" season under the expectation he could continue doing that for 10 more years AND keep playing catcher. Still, it's not like can really blame Mauer for not being Miguel Cabrera, because nobody else is either, not even some other guys making $20 million. Also, the Tigers have spent a lot of money (on FA's or option years to retain players) for guys that end up losing playing time to more defensively-oriented rookies. Guys like Magglio Ordonez or Johnny Damon. But they usually do so with short-term deals, so it's tough to really find too much fault with it.

[Willihammer]

Ain't she sweet... I just can't understand how "Down by the River" doesn't do the trick for her.

 

Try stupid girl, or, a man needs a maid.

[twinsnorth49]

Ain't she sweet... I just can't understand how "Down by the River" doesn't do the trick for her.

 

Try stupid girl, or, a man needs a maid.

 

I'd try "Locked in the Trunk of a Car" or " She Didn't Know" by the Hip, solid.

[Riverbrian]

I'd tried them all. She just isn't going to put down the Adele.

 

Persoanlly... Man needs a Maid off Harvest... Absolutely... Stupid Girl? If I have Zuma... I gotta do Cortez.

 

Locked in the Trunk of a Car is my favorite Hip Tune... Absolutely... However She didnt know doesnt dp it for me...if I have Up to Here in my hand. Trickle Down is so Rolling Stonesy... That would be my track.

 

Actually I'd want Inevitability of Death off Day for Night or I'd want "up to here" to turn into Road Apples which is a batter album and I'd break out the three Pistols or Little Bones.

 

Zeppelin... You can't top Since I've been loving you.

 

For everyone else On Twins Daily... Jump in or Just talk about baseball around us... lol...