Privilege and Responsibility

[TheLeviathan]

 

Social media cannot be the boogie man that justifies preemptive snowflake cries of "lynch mob" every time someone points out there is problem with this kind of behavior, a problem we all acknowledge is a problem. (The alternative is to stay silent about such problems in the public forum. And that is an awful, shameful alternative.) It was shared on this forum and not social media, and no one has gone ape-poopy about it.  So in the end we're really just putting the lefties on twitter on trial again: great.

 

Perhaps if there were less apologists for it, even here, there would be less desire for that.

 

Also, that's a false dilemma argument.  The idea that our choices are to do nothing or act like a bunch of imbeciles is not only false, it perpetuates the problem.  The idea that dealing with racism is either sledgehammer or silence misses a vast array of other avenues that may be more appropriate to given situations.

 

This misunderstanding about how to handle the very title of this thread is a major obstacle to progress, in fact.  Less false dilemmas on this would be nice, so it'd be welcome for you to recognize that flaw in your thinking.

[biggentleben]

 

In the absence of shred of context, you were furious at a child for wearing a hat, because internet.

 

So I hope you'll permit me to take with a grain of salt your admonishment that I'm "overreacting" by pointing out the undeniable existence of doxxing, and also the left's terrifying obsession with weaponizing media to destroy those it finds guilty in internet kangaroo court, as well as its spectacularly bad recent track record of rushing to judge.

 

If the teachers were in fact engaged in a spontaneous, miniature Klan rally centered around a noose found at their school, then I hope they're fired immediately.

 

In the absence of proof of that absurd notion, it's breathtakingly dishonest to deny that publicly portraying them as openly racist based purely on a photo is very likely damaging to their lives and those of their families'. 

 

....and when my teenage daughter is told that anything she posts on the Internet that includes her body (fully clothed, mind you) can be used against her while anyone who makes vitriolic Twitter posts or poses for pictures such as these without thinking of the implications is defended ad nauseam, I'll simply ignore those defending those posting potential vitriolic and racist material and hope that someday they get the double standard.

[ewen21]

This post is you ignoring me, I guess.

 

Keep working on it.

I was reading the article about this incident. Parents pulled kids out of school. On parent explained to her daughter, "They hang black people with those and the do it to this day"

 

Seems like an overreaction to me

[Badsmerf]

An overreaction to teachers laughing at a noose? Don't see how that could be offensive at all....

 

I struggle with you ewen. I choose to not respond to you because you don't listen, have circular or deflective arguments, and don't seem to approach subjects with authenticity. This topic, whether it be responsibilities of citizens or police, you seem to have a special tunnel vision in what is reality.

 

Without the context in the noose photo, it is a flagrant act for teachers. With context, maybe it is just stupid. Either way, you line up to defend them immediately... and you should ask yourself why.

[ewen21]

An overreaction in the comment the woman made to her daughter. The part about "and they do it to this day"

 

Honestly?

[LaBombo]

 

An overreaction to teachers laughing at a noose? 

 

"I showed her the picture of her teacher and of someone hanging from a tree,” Randle Jr. tells Yahoo Lifestyle. “She’s sad and shocked that her teacher would hold a torture device.”

 

As inexplicable as the photo is, a parent letting their own anger provoke them into terrifying an elementary school child with it is an overreaction. It's a volatile symbol and I understand people being upset, but that's too much.

 

[TheLeviathan]

 

....and when my teenage daughter is told that anything she posts on the Internet that includes her body (fully clothed, mind you) can be used against her while anyone who makes vitriolic Twitter posts or poses for pictures such as these without thinking of the implications is defended ad nauseam, I'll simply ignore those defending those posting potential vitriolic and racist material and hope that someday they get the double standard.

 

I'm sorry Ben, but I don't see how you made this leap.

 

Twitter is a vile cesspool, the trolls making those comments are one of many kinds of bad you'll find on that stupid platform.

[biggentleben]

 

I'm sorry Ben, but I don't see how you made this leap.

 

Twitter is a vile cesspool, the trolls making those comments are one of many kinds of bad you'll find on that stupid platform.

 

I did mention Twitter, thinking more along the lines of the ovation given to Josh Hader after his posts were revealed last summer, but it's really any social platform. Recently, defenses have gone up for those who are vilified for not thinking before posting by some...but all responsibility for what someone may do with an innocent picture of my daughter is on her, no matter what photo editing software may be added or other such things. Unbelievably, the same people often that defend someone like Hader will put out the line, "if she didn't want that sort of attention, then she shouldn't post that picture." Mind you, I've seen this same comment made on a woman wearing a sweater and jeans in the photo in question. Not on Twitter. By someone who made a long, drawn out post about how wrong it was to judge Hader.

 

So "making that leap" likely doesn't occur when 1. you're male, 2. you're white, 3. you're not in that age where all men seem to think you're a sex object when female. In the realm of privilege, it's one we seldom discuss. In my house, it's an every day thing, and it will be for the next 20 years (at least).

[PseudoSABR]

 

Also, that's a false dilemma argument.  The idea that our choices are to do nothing or act like a bunch of imbeciles is not only false, it perpetuates the problem.  The idea that dealing with racism is either sledgehammer or silence misses a vast array of other avenues that may be more appropriate to given situations.

My point is that anything above silence being posted to social media will result in some rando using it as a sledgehammer.  To avoid the sledgehammer of social media is indeed avoid the forum altogether, it doesn't matter that one iota that original poster gives the benefit of the doubt or frames the issue graciously.  Blaming the left or the right for the reactions of who the heck ever on social media is disingenuous.  

[TheLeviathan]

 

  Blaming the left or the right for the reactions of who the heck ever on social media is disingenuous.  

 

I blame the left for social media.  I blame the right for weaponizing cable and radio to create a toxic environment.  Both poles are doing the same thing, it's about the tool being used.

 

It worries me that the right has started to employ this tool as well.  Social media is powerful and anonymous and can be employed to great and devastating effect.  Berating someone about racism over twitter accomplishes almost nothing but for cases that require a sledgehammer.  

 

So yeah, Twitter blast the Charlottesville trash.  But someone who doesn't understand their white privilege?  Maybe reconsider your tool.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I did mention Twitter, thinking more along the lines of the ovation given to Josh Hader after his posts were revealed last summer, but it's really any social platform. Recently, defenses have gone up for those who are vilified for not thinking before posting by some...but all responsibility for what someone may do with an innocent picture of my daughter is on her, no matter what photo editing software may be added or other such things. Unbelievably, the same people often that defend someone like Hader will put out the line, "if she didn't want that sort of attention, then she shouldn't post that picture." Mind you, I've seen this same comment made on a woman wearing a sweater and jeans in the photo in question. Not on Twitter. By someone who made a long, drawn out post about how wrong it was to judge Hader.

 

So "making that leap" likely doesn't occur when 1. you're male, 2. you're white, 3. you're not in that age where all men seem to think you're a sex object when female. In the realm of privilege, it's one we seldom discuss. In my house, it's an every day thing, and it will be for the next 20 years (at least).

 

I think you misunderstand.  I'm not sure how this post comes out of what you're replying to.  I'm not disagreeing with your sentiment and concern, I just don't understand how you took the quoted post and came with that response.  

 

 

It seems unrelated, maybe it's not, I just can't connect the points.  There are certainly many forms of privilege beyond just race.  All of which are best left to discussions miles away from Twitter IMO.

 

[PseudoSABR]

 

I blame the left for social media. 

Okay this conversation just jumped the shark. 

[biggentleben]

 

I think you misunderstand.  I'm not sure how this post comes out of what you're replying to.  I'm not disagreeing with your sentiment and concern, I just don't understand how you took the quoted post and came with that response.  

 

 

It seems unrelated, maybe it's not, I just can't connect the points.  There are certainly many forms of privilege beyond just race.  All of which are best left to discussions miles away from Twitter IMO.

 

It's the issue with what we're "allowed" to chastise or attack or whatever line you want to use on social media. Why does discourse on certain topics become an issue whether bad behavior was attacked or not, but other horrendous behavior is left unchecked?

 

The discourse has been going on for multiple pages on whether we should or should not attack someone for racism due to the potential that we could be wrong. However, on vitally important issues, no one is taking even a stand, let alone attacking, and it leads to many feeling like they have absolutely no protection and even no value within the larger society based on the lack of attention that poor behavior in that realm seems to warrant.

 

I probably don't put it into the best words either, as I'm a dad getting it reported to me. I'm not someone experiencing it on a day to day basis. That end of things is where we truly need to consider our privilege and stepping out from behind it. Not just race, not just sexual orientation, not just any one of them, but each and all of them.

[PseudoSABR]

 

It's the issue with what we're "allowed" to chastise or attack or whatever line you want to use on social media. Why does discourse on certain topics become an issue whether bad behavior was attacked or not, but other horrendous behavior is left unchecked?

 

The discourse has been going on for multiple pages on whether we should or should not attack someone for racism due to the potential that we could be wrong. However, on vitally important issues, no one is taking even a stand, let alone attacking, and it leads to many feeling like they have absolutely no protection and even no value within the larger society based on the lack of attention that poor behavior in that realm seems to warrant.

 

I probably don't put it into the best words either, as I'm a dad getting it reported to me. I'm not someone experiencing it on a day to day basis. That end of things is where we truly need to consider our privilege and stepping out from behind it. Not just race, not just sexual orientation, not just any one of them, but each and all of them.

This.  Thanks for putting in your two cents, Ben.  Your words are appreciated as always (and are plenty articulate). 

[TheLeviathan]

 

It's the issue with what we're "allowed" to chastise or attack or whatever line you want to use on social media. Why does discourse on certain topics become an issue whether bad behavior was attacked or not, but other horrendous behavior is left unchecked?

 

The discourse has been going on for multiple pages on whether we should or should not attack someone for racism due to the potential that we could be wrong. However, on vitally important issues, no one is taking even a stand, let alone attacking, and it leads to many feeling like they have absolutely no protection and even no value within the larger society based on the lack of attention that poor behavior in that realm seems to warrant.

 

I probably don't put it into the best words either, as I'm a dad getting it reported to me. I'm not someone experiencing it on a day to day basis. That end of things is where we truly need to consider our privilege and stepping out from behind it. Not just race, not just sexual orientation, not just any one of them, but each and all of them.

 

To your first paragraph - I'm all about checking that behavior as well.  Trolling and negativity online is now something that is a regular part of our technology instruction.  My students had two separate lessons this year on appropriate conduct online. I don't think that issue has been raised in this thread because it's slightly off topic.  What you raise is another branch of the toxicity of social media and one certainly worth caring about.

 

It's not just about being wrong.  Certainly it's a problem if we try and destroy people on social media and we're wrong.  There is no going back and the damage is real.  It's also about how the approach is more counter-productive than helpful.  It's sledgehammer vs. chisel.  Sure...you can use both, but which tool you use should be informed by the problem right?

 

Take someone who is just genuinely confused about privilege: they have never had to confront it, they don't understand it, and they go on social media and pose a well-intentioned question.  Does that person deserve the same treatment as some Tiki-torch wielding prick making Nazi salutes?

 

I hope not.  I would like to implore people to think these two situations require VERY different approaches.  You can take a stand and try and help one person, the other probably needs to see a jail cell.  Or some other serious consequence.  

 

And, much like you, I'm a parent.  Nuance like this is crucial to good parenting and, really, changing thing socially has a lot of parallels. As a parent you have to "take a stand" many times a day.  I would bet your stand doesn't look the same every time but is instead very thoughtful, nuanced, and tailored to the situation you're addressing.  Why would we do anything less for dealing with subjects this dense and important?

[biggentleben]

 

To your first paragraph - I'm all about checking that behavior as well.  Trolling and negativity online is now something that is a regular part of our technology instruction.  My students had two separate lessons this year on appropriate conduct online. I don't think that issue has been raised in this thread because it's slightly off topic.  What you raise is another branch of the toxicity of social media and one certainly worth caring about.

 

It's not just about being wrong.  Certainly it's a problem if we try and destroy people on social media and we're wrong.  There is no going back and the damage is real.  It's also about how the approach is more counter-productive than helpful.  It's sledgehammer vs. chisel.  Sure...you can use both, but which tool you use should be informed by the problem right?

 

Take someone who is just genuinely confused about privilege: they have never had to confront it, they don't understand it, and they go on social media and pose a well-intentioned question.  Does that person deserve the same treatment as some Tiki-torch wielding prick making Nazi salutes?

 

I hope not.  I would like to implore people to think these two situations require VERY different approaches.  You can take a stand and try and help one person, the other probably needs to see a jail cell.  Or some other serious consequence.  

 

And, much like you, I'm a parent.  Nuance like this is crucial to good parenting and, really, changing thing socially has a lot of parallels. As a parent you have to "take a stand" many times a day.  I would bet your stand doesn't look the same every time but is instead very thoughtful, nuanced, and tailored to the situation you're addressing.  Why would we do anything less for dealing with subjects this dense and important?

 

I would hope your scenario would give some leeway to a genuine seeker in any topic versus someone looking to create conflict, but it is so difficult to know which is which in many cases.

 

A scenario for you to consider:

 

You're very intrigued by a particular lecture topic and considering making a trip specifically to hear this lecture delivered based on the reputation of the speaker. Does your enthusiasm change when you find out that the Joe Johnson, PhD that is delivering the lecture is actually Jolene Johnson? Does it change when you find out Joe Johnson is black/Asian/Native? when you find out that PhD is from Podunk University - Rural Campus, and not from Harvard/Yale/Berkley/etc.? Is gay/trans?

 

All of those aspects that can change that opinion are things that should all be protected with the same veracity as race, and I really don't believe that we are conscious of the issues going on in those other realms, or we've at least moved them to a back burner in our own minds and seemingly ignore real things going on in those areas while we get triggered in the one other area, right or wrong.

 

That's what bugs me. That's what brought my comment about people who make a stand about race on either side with such passion yet don't address the very real issues going on in so many other areas that are attacked online. Perhaps the person getting their opinion quickly judged on race has already worn out their leeway in other areas, but when some are so focused on one area, the racial offense seems to be the only thing mentioned.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I would hope your scenario would give some leeway to a genuine seeker in any topic versus someone looking to create conflict, but it is so difficult to know which is which in many cases.

 

It absolutely is.  So just like parenting, you should ask questions first before reacting.  

 

I would agree that many other privilege issues are far behind the public consciousness of racial privilege.  I get where your first comment was coming from now.

 

Would you say, given how hard it is to tackle white privilege, that we can tackle all of them simultaneously?  I guess I question, unfortunately, that we can tackle any of them at this stage.

[ewen21]

 

An overreaction to teachers laughing at a noose? Don't see how that could be offensive at all....

I struggle with you ewen. I choose to not respond to you because you don't listen, have circular or deflective arguments, and don't seem to approach subjects with authenticity. This topic, whether it be responsibilities of citizens or police, you seem to have a special tunnel vision in what is reality.

Without the context in the noose photo, it is a flagrant act for teachers. With context, maybe it is just stupid. Either way, you line up to defend them immediately... and you should ask yourself why.

Earlier in this thread, I spoke in very clear terms about seven or eight high profile claims of racism and I summarized each one.  If you feel any of that misrepresented the truth then by all means show me where and we can take it from there.  I invite anyone to go back a couple of pages to see my big post from (I think) April 14th and take five minutes to read it.

 

You will not flnd anything deflective or anything lacking authenticity.  It is largely based off events that happened and the facts are there for us to discuss.  Funny how this thread was popping for well over a week and then that post ended this thread for a couple of weeks.  Not one person had the courage to question what I said. 

 

I think the underlined part isn't how you feel at all.  You struggle with me for other reasons (i.e. you don't like what I say and cannot disprove what I say)

 

[TheLeviathan]

 

 

I think the underlined part isn't how you feel at all.  You struggle with me for other reasons (i.e. you don't like what I say and cannot disprove what I say)

 

I have the same struggle as Smerf.

[PseudoSABR]

 

Earlier in this thread, I spoke in very clear terms about seven or eight high profile claims of racism and I summarized each one.  If you feel any of that misrepresented the truth then by all means show me where and we can take it from there.  I invite anyone to go back a couple of pages to see my big post from (I think) April 14th and take five minutes to read it.

 

You will not flnd anything deflective or anything lacking authenticity.  It is largely based off events that happened and the facts are there for us to discuss.  Funny how this thread was popping for well over a week and then that post ended this thread for a couple of weeks.  Not one person had the courage to question what I said. 

 

I think the underlined part isn't how you feel at all.  You struggle with me for other reasons (i.e. you don't like what I say and cannot disprove what I say)

You don't like that posters disprove of your racists attitudes, and that they choose not to partake further in your gamemanship. Boohoo for you. That LaBambo liked this post is incredibly disappointing. (I see you.)

[ewen21]

You don't like that posters disprove of your racists attitudes, and that they choose not to partake further in your gamemanship. Boohoo for you. That LaBambo liked this post is incredibly disappointing. (I see you.)

I don't buy this for a second. I highlighted a whole bunch of different events where racism was charged. You could very easily dismantle what I said if what I said wasn't true. The challenge that you guys have is that what I said was impossible for you to disapprove.

 

What is the purpose of this thread? Are we supposed to wait in line to denounce racism every time a claim of racism gets made? I'm not a puppet so you can count me out

 

Beyond that I have no idea what you guys think you've accomplished here

[PseudoSABR]

 

I don't buy this for a second. I highlighted a whole bunch of different events where racism was charged. You could very easily dismantle what I said if what I said wasn't true. The challenge that you guys have is that what I said was impossible for you to disapprove.

What is the purpose of this thread? Are we supposed to wait in line to denounce racism every time a claim of racism gets made? I'm not a puppet so you can count me out

Beyond that I have no idea what you guys think you've accomplished here

That you think your spattering of anecdotes some how disproves white privilege is both naive and hilarious. 

[ewen21]

That you think your spattering of anecdotes some how disproves white privilege is both naive and hilarious.

Commenting again on something you never read.

 

Can't say I'm surprised

[biggentleben]

 

It absolutely is.  So just like parenting, you should ask questions first before reacting.  

 

I would agree that many other privilege issues are far behind the public consciousness of racial privilege.  I get where your first comment was coming from now.

 

Would you say, given how hard it is to tackle white privilege, that we can tackle all of them simultaneously?  I guess I question, unfortunately, that we can tackle any of them at this stage.

 

Tackle all of them simultaneously as an entire society? Not a chance.

 

Work to ensure that each of us individuals challenges internally to achieve at least some level of improvement in awareness/consciousness/action on various areas of privilege that we are blessed with each day? That's absolutely achievable.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Tackle all of them simultaneously as an entire society? Not a chance.

 

Work to ensure that each of us individuals challenges internally to achieve at least some level of improvement in awareness/consciousness/action on various areas of privilege that we are blessed with each day? That's absolutely achievable.

 

100% with you.  But those are challenging things to internalize and I think, for many people, it's best to be supported through that process rather than berated.

 

Too often I think berating is the method being used on this and that is causing blowback and stalling. 

[MMMordabito]

Hahaha ... You can't make this stuff up .... NBA possibly moving away from the word owner

 

The owners own the franchise. Not the players. You would have to be a complete idiot to not see the difference.

 

I anoint thee, Draymond the Delicate

[Vanimal46]

Hahaha ... You can't make this stuff up .... NBA possibly moving away from the word owner

 

The owners own the franchise. Not the players. You would have to be a complete idiot to not see the difference.

 

I anoint thee, Draymond the Delicate

When political correctness goes too far...

[ashbury]

I anoint thee, Draymond the Delicate

Probably he's had to develop a thicker skin than most of us.

[MMMordabito]

 

Probably he's had to develop a thicker skin than most of us.

 

$17 million a year should take care of that.

[Vanimal46]

My dog requested that I be called Pet CEO instead of his owner too.