Mauer/Sano: Double Standard on Strength/Conditioning?

[BD57]

Mauer wasn't working for the current GM, etc. when those things happened, so the "Double Standard" claim doesn't make a lick of sense . . .  except for someone who wants to insinuate that Joe "dogged it" and the Twins let him.

 

Which is just a variant of "Let's Gripe about What Mauer Was Paid" Bitch Fest . . . . . 

 

Twins fans can be so much fun . . . they gripe about the team refusing to pay for talent, and then they gripe about what the Twins fans paid for talent . . . .  Or they just gripe ....

[Pardon My Dinger]

I think Mauer was a star in the sort of murky, kinda nebulous post-roids, pre-body builder, millennial power stroke era. It doesn’t seem like a long time ago, but I don’t think physical training was nearly the same ten years ago. Players are way more under the microscope now for better or worse.

[DrNeau]

Miguel Sano's strength has been less of an issue than his conditioning. Joe Mauer's strength was more of an issue than his conditioning. 

 

Joe Mauer certainly had an awful lot of justifications over the course of his career to support the limitation of off-season workouts and strength training. Mauer openly shared in February 2016 that he was disregarding the team's strength and conditioning program and instead was working with a stretching trainer. Under Falvey, Mauer had the off-season to prepare for 2017, as well as the off-season to prepare for 2018. Here in the same year, 2018, Miguel Sano's conditioning is being monitored to a higher degree than any Twins player I've ever heard. 

 

This is indeed a double standard.

[Bark's Lounge]

I'm just about done with Sano. 3B should be done and he should be a 1B or DH. He is naturally a 280lbs guy - that will never change. If he gets down to 255 he will always bounce back to 280 unless he works harder than the majority of MLB players. It is my belief he will miss 1/5 to 1/4 of each season because his body cannot withstand the beating because when he is going at full steam, he is a fairly athletic guy. I just don't see it working out or him having a fruitful career. His big size is his arch enemy IMO.

 

[Doomtints]

I dunno. If a team made me film my workouts for them, they'd probably get videos of me flipping off the camera while eating pizza. Unless Sano's IQ is so low that he needs to be treated like a child (it isn't), this is offensive. What are the Twins gonna do if he stops sending videos? Cut him? Yeah right.

 

Heck, do the damn videos and send them to the Yankees or any other team who might consider picking him up off of waivers or accept a trade. Send the Twins videos of him playing video games.

 

If they want to make sure Sano is working out, there are some sane options:

 

1) Get off their keisters and check on him. He is, after all, part of the "family."

2) Hire a trainer to work out with him regularly.

 

There is no I in team, Twins Brass. Work with people.

[SomeGuy]

I think the true double standard is Willians Astudillo.  We laugh when he says he wants to show that chubby players can perform too. 

 

Where is Astudillo's weight loss program?

 

Very possible that he has one and it just isn't as public as Sano's but the fans sure don't seem to care as long as your performing.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Ugh, this thread makes me want to throw up in my mouth. Another thinly veiled Mauer attack thread, despite the fact the guy retired this season. Let it go already.

 

Joe Mauer, as a 35 year old, is one inch taller and about 60 lbs lighter than Miguel Sano. No one approached him with a conditioning plan because there weren't questions whether his diet and routine could sustain itself for a 162 game season.

 

And I'm saying this as a guy who is also sick and tired of hearing people pile on Sano for being overweight (or, maybe more accurately, perceived to be overweight).

 

Miguel Sano is taking advice and changing his offseason plans to become a better baseball player. Good for him. That's all I really need to know about the subject.

[Surelock]

I am not interested in comparing Mauer to Sano. The Twins need to see Sano play 145+ games in a season, the 95 games per season he is averaging over 4 seasons should not be acceptable; get 450+ AB during the season, without giving up his AB’s when he falls behind in the count (he gave up more AB’s in one game than Mauer did in an entire career; striking out less than 25% of the time and draw 25%+ in walks; make the average plays in the field where ever he is at. I don’t care whether he is 280 or 300+ pounds, he needs to show the Twins he can play & produce

[USAFChief]

 

Ugh, this thread makes me want to throw up in my mouth. Another thinly veiled Mauer attack thread, despite the fact the guy retired this season. Let it go already.

 

Joe Mauer, as a 35 year old, is one inch taller and about 60 lbs lighter than Miguel Sano. No one approached him with a conditioning plan because there weren't questions whether his diet and routine could sustain itself for a 162 game season.

 

And I'm saying this as a guy who is also sick and tired of hearing people pile on Sano for being overweight (or, maybe more accurately, perceived to be overweight).

 

Miguel Sano is taking advice and changing his offseason plans to become a better baseball player. Good for him. That's all I really need to know about the subject.

Sorry, but it's not a perception.

 

Everyone, EVERYone, admitted as much when he was sent to Ft Myers.

 

He has been overweight, for a few years now. Hopefully, that's a thing of the past.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Sorry, but it's not a perception.

 

Everyone, EVERYone, admitted as much when he was sent to Ft Myers.

 

He has been overweight, for a few years now. Hopefully, that's a thing of the past.

Sure, he's likely overweight but "how much" is certainly in question. He's a very big boy who could easily clock in at 260 lbs and not be "overweight". He needs to find a performance balance and I'm not arrogant enough to claim to know what weight he'll achieve that goal.

 

Like I said, he's trying to improve himself. Good for him. That's all I care about, really.

[bird]

 

Miguel Sano's strength has been less of an issue than his conditioning. Joe Mauer's strength was more of an issue than his conditioning. 

 

Joe Mauer certainly had an awful lot of justifications over the course of his career to support the limitation of off-season workouts and strength training. Mauer openly shared in February 2016 that he was disregarding the team's strength and conditioning program and instead was working with a stretching trainer. Under Falvey, Mauer had the off-season to prepare for 2017, as well as the off-season to prepare for 2018. Here in the same year, 2018, Miguel Sano's conditioning is being monitored to a higher degree than any Twins player I've ever heard. 

 

This is indeed a double standard.

 

 

Your first paragraph here suggests the reality, which is different from your suspect interpretation.

 

You're not seeing a double standard. You're pointing to individual standards. Doesn't that make all the sense in the world?

 

But even more valid reason to dismiss your theory is that you're not even talking about the same people as the alleged perpetrators of this incredible injustice. New FO regime. Thorough housecleaning amomg training, fitness, and medical personnel, likely with all kinds of changes in protocols and policies and methods.

 

Sano's a grown man, even if history as shown some immature behavior at times. He's following a plan because it's in his best interests even more than the team's. He's got teammates going through supervised workouts this morning in Fort Meyers. His are being remotely supervised. Good idea. Wave to the camera, Miggy.

[Loosey]

 

I have no idea what kind of weight training Sano is doing but, in my humble opinion, it should not be the heavy weight, bulk up type but should be low weight, high rep followed by cardio and emphasis on diet.

 

As far as Mauer is concerned, playing ability and stats not with standing, it was obvious that Mauer wrote his own script with the Twins and was basically untouchable. Now that Harold Baines is in the Hall, Mauer will probably be close behind which proves that MLB is running out of real Hall candidates.

Heavy weights and the correct diet actually is a great tool to lose fat/weight and gain strength and muscle.  Obviously, cardio is a piece needed for endurance, but lift away Miguel with whatever weights you want.

[kenbuddha]

But but but Joe Mauer's emails!!

 

Give it a rest, he retired. Please find another whipping boy.

[DrNeau]

Your first paragraph here suggests the reality, which is different from your suspect interpretation.

 

You're not seeing a double standard. You're pointing to individual standards. Doesn't that make all the sense in the world?

 

But even more valid reason to dismiss your theory is that you're not even talking about the same people as the alleged perpetrators of this incredible injustice. New FO regime. Thorough housecleaning amomg training, fitness, and medical personnel, likely with all kinds of changes in protocols and policies and methods.

 

Sano's a grown man, even if history as shown some immature behavior at times. He's following a plan because it's in his best interests even more than the team's. He's got teammates going through supervised workouts this morning in Fort Meyers. His are being remotely supervised. Good idea. Wave to the camera, Miggy.

 

Mauer was also a grown man, and was immature in that he did not properly strength train over the course of his career. You give him a pass for that while simultaneously picking at Sano for lack of conditioning. It is demonstrated in your post above. So a big reason to dismiss my "theory" is because we have a new FO regime, which has had a thorough housecleaning in the training/fitness/medical area. News flash: They have been in control since October 2016, which effectively is about 2 years since they took any of the actions you indicated above, like firing the strength and conditioning coach and enforcing that Sano starts sending video of his workouts. Those two first years sure were cake for Mauer, though. He stretched and lifted a whopping 55 lbs!

 

 

Thanks for saying my interpretation is suspect, and for bringing forth an argument which ignores the last two years Mauer enjoyed. It is no surprise and to me, just further exposes this big charade. 

 

Wave to the photographer, Joe. Wave goodbye to a lack of accountability for strength and conditioning. 

[FargoFanMan]

Double standard??? It’s obviously just the night and day standard of the old and new. Joe Mauer could have come into camp 75 lbs overweight and still bat 300 and be a star. And the old staff would have let that happen as the prodigal son. Miguel Sano on the other point seems to need the motivation now that he’s made it to the bigs at least. Once you get to the show everything goes into another tier. The true stars have the talent and an overwhelming drive to be successful. Sano has one of those it seems at the moment but the staff now is going to hold him accountable as well. Maximizing your investment basically. He should do this on his own but just like anything else he got too comfortable it seemed. Let’s hope we see the mvp potential out of this guy. The front office is at least doing what they can do to maximize that potential. Let’s just hope the other end wants it as much. Same with Buxton. I think Sano is easier to fix as he has proven he can. Conditioning will do wonders for him. Buxton on the other side is a whole different situation.

[ewen21]

 

There was also the little thing like a knee surgery a month or so before spring training in 2011.   He did not just rest the off season to just recover from normal wear and tear but from a damaged knee.  It is too bad he did not have surgery sooner, but who knows that might have been the team's decision.   They also exacerbated things by trying to push him for opening day when he clearly was not ready.  I think there is a reason why Joe got outside medical and training opinions after how the 2011 knee injury was handled.

 

 

Russell Martin had the same procedure, also in December (within days), and turned in an all star season in 2011 catching for the Yankees.  The guy came into camp doing handstands.  Mauer came into camp looking sickly, talking about baby steps and rest.  No one knew what the heck was wrong with Joe and people speculated wildly about his condition.  They even sent him to the Mayo Clinic and all they could come up with was bi-lateral leg weakness.

 

He didn't pass the eye test with me when he came into camp.  He looked so frail that it got my attention. Next thing you know he's in Florida through most of April and May trying to build strength.  They Mayo Clinic couldn't diagnose him with anything but leg weakness.  Yet and still, people insist there is "no evidence" that he was lacking in the strength and conditioning department.

 

And while Joe was not fat, he certainly was not strong.  Being "not fat" doesn't make you "in shape" and for a highly paid elite athlete he was not.  Not by that standard.  Matter of fact, tor his size he had below average strength as evidenced not only by his approach to hitting but by the pictures posted above.  55lbs squats?  Pathetic.  I see women do more.  Here was a guy with size, an excellent eye for the zone and great knowledge of pitch sequences.  For some odd reason, he rarely ever saw fit to turn on a pitch starting in 2010.  To write off Joe's laisse faire approach to strength training as a non starter is laughable.  People are not going to see the unpleasant with Mauer.  That is just the way it is.  And the ugly truth with him is he really didn't do adequate work during the off season.  Had he done it he would have benefitted enormously.

[Doomtints]

The three of you are not making bad points but consider we all talked about this over five years ago now and don't want to keep plowing the same ground.

 

Mauer was the golden boy, we all know that. Sano is under scrutiny all the time, we know that too. As I said earlier, if it were me, I wouldn't film my workouts for the front office if I were in Sano's position.

 

News flash, life isn't fair!

[Sssuperdave]

2 things:

 

1. I vividly remember reading an article in the strib several years ago that discussed Mauer's offseason home, and the fact that it included his own personal gym with weight training equipment that hadsome sort of USB port or something like that where he would plug a device in the to machine, do his sets & reps, and  data on those sets & reps would be uploaded to a location where Twins trainers could see it. 

 

2. On whether or not Sano is "overweight", I think a problem is that the term "overweight" brings all kind of baggage about fat vs muscle. It's possible for one's weight to be all muscle but for that to still not be ideal for certain athletic activities. On the most extreme end, you never see elite marathoners with huge amounts of muscle (or fat). I think there is universal agreement that Sano would be a better fielder, faster runner, etc. at a lower weight than he has played at so far no matter what his body composition is.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

Miguel Sano's strength has been less of an issue than his conditioning. Joe Mauer's strength was more of an issue than his conditioning. 

 

Joe Mauer certainly had an awful lot of justifications over the course of his career to support the limitation of off-season workouts and strength training. Mauer openly shared in February 2016 that he was disregarding the team's strength and conditioning program and instead was working with a stretching trainer. Under Falvey, Mauer had the off-season to prepare for 2017, as well as the off-season to prepare for 2018. Here in the same year, 2018, Miguel Sano's conditioning is being monitored to a higher degree than any Twins player I've ever heard. 

 

This is indeed a double standard.

 

So Mauer ignored the same guys Falvey fired this offseason?

[Sssuperdave]

 

.  55lbs squats?  Pathetic.  I see women do more.  Here was a guy with size, an excellent eye for the zone and great knowledge of pitch sequences.  For some odd reason, he rarely ever saw fit to turn on a pitch starting in 2010.  To write off Joe's laisse faire approach to strength training as a non starter is laughable.  People are not going to see the unpleasant with Mauer.  That is just the way it is.  And the ugly truth with him is he really didn't do adequate work during the off season.  Had he done it he would have benefitted enormously.

 

I guarantee you Mauer can squat way more than 55 pounds. I squat over 200 but start every workout with a warmup, and that warmup starts with 2 sets with nothing but the bar. Anyone could snap a picture of me doing those warmup sets, post it to facebook, and everyone could laugh at me for being a wimp. He was either warming up, rehabbing an injury, doing a deload, doing drop sets, or any of another half dozen+ explanations.

[ewen21]

 

2 things:

 

1. I vividly remember reading an article in the strib several years ago that discussed Mauer's offseason home, and the fact that it included his own personal gym with weight training equipment that hadsome sort of USB port or something like that where he would plug a device in the to machine, do his sets & reps, and  data on those sets & reps would be uploaded to a location where Twins trainers could see it. 

 

Really?  I never heard anything about it and when I search for "Joe Mauer home gym" I can't find it.  I do know he was training at Mauer Chevrolet a few years ago in a "gym" there.  Why he'd be doing that when he has a gym at home makes absolutely no sense-but then Joe kind of dances to no music sometimes.

[ewen21]

 

I guarantee you Mauer can squat way more than 55 pounds. I squat over 200 but start every workout with a warmup, and that warmup starts with 2 sets with nothing but the bar. Anyone could snap a picture of me doing those warmup sets, post it to facebook, and everyone could laugh at me for being a wimp. He was either warming up, rehabbing an injury, doing a deload, doing drop sets, or any of another half dozen+ explanations.

You are convinced he was warming up?  I am not.  Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't.  Could he do more?  Sure, I bet he can.  Then again, here is a guy who said he got all his leg workouts squatting in the bullpen.  

[Squirrel]

When we discuss double standards one must look at all that makes these players the same and what makes them different. How are Mauer and Sano different might be part of this equation. Look at photos of the two side by side and tell me what you see and maybe that has some bearing in why the two players are seemingly treated differently. The OP didn’t mention this but I think it warrants consideration.

[ewen21]

Carol, Mauer did need to spend time in-season during 2011 building strength. You don't get there by having an adaquate offseason strength training program. It was a major issue that was talked about all season. Everyone knows the story and it left a lot of people scratching their heads. Dr. Neau was thorough enough to provide plenty of quotes from Mauer and a timeline of events. He didn't make it up and it certainly provides evidence. All of that, and his unwillingness/inability to turn on baseballs tell me he was deficient in the area of strength--something that could have easily been remedied with offseason strength training. To me, this was something Mauer missed the boat on and I find it to be something he should have been openly questioned about. Seems like every single spring there were articles written about his conditioning and how he felt. They weren't written to attack him and they weren't just the arbitrary whims of one writer.

 

As far as Sano goes, strength isn't an issue as much as weight is. They are different types of issues, but both are as a result of off season neglect. I believe there is (was) a double for Joe and all other Twins. He was able to slide on this one where Sano isn't and I say amen for the Twins taking a stand. They should have been more vigilant with Mauer...

Actually, no...Joe should have just understood the importance of building strength. That's what a player should do along with rest. It's pretty obvious to me Joe went pretty heavy on the rest and didn't really make himself strong. Sure he wasn't fat, but at times he looked downright frail AND he hit like it for the last 7 years of his career.

[Squirrel]

Carol, Mauer did need to spend time in-season during 2011 building strength. You don't get there by having an adaquate offseason strength training program. It was a major issue that was talked about all season. Everyone knows the story and it left a lot of people scratching their heads. Dr. Neau was thorough enough to provide plenty of quotes from Mauer and a timeline of events. He didn't make it up and it certainly provides evidence. All of that, and his unwillingness/inability to turn on baseballs tell me he was deficient in the area of strength--something that could have easily been remedied with offseason strength training. To me, this was something Mauer missed the boat on and I find it to be something he should have been openly questioned about. Seems like every single spring there were articles written about his conditioning and how he felt. They weren't written to attack him and they weren't just the arbitrary whims of one writer.

As far as Sano goes, strength isn't an issue as much as weight is. They are different types of issues, but both are as a result of off season neglect. I believe there is (was) a double for Joe and all other Twins. He was able to slide on this one where Sano isn't and I say amen for the Twins taking a stand. They should have been more vigilant with Mauer...

Actually, no...Joe should have just understood the importance of building strength. That's what a player should do along with rest. It's pretty obvious to me Joe went pretty heavy on the rest and didn't really make himself strong. Sure he wasn't fat, but at times he looked downright frail AND he hit like it for the last 7 years of his career.

That was my point. Why the double standard? I don’t think a discussion of there being a double standard can exist without discussing why it exists. While you are going about showing how one’s conditioning and training wasn’t subject to as much scrutiny as they other, I’m asking the ultimate question ... why does this double standard exist. We can all discuss what was with Mauer to death ... and we have. At this point it doesn’t matter what he did or didn’t do no matter what any of us thinks of Mauer or Sano. But I don’t understand how the question of a double standard can be raised without discussing why one thinks this is, otherwise it becomes the same discussion we’ve had many times over regarding both players. I think everyone has shown there are differences ... differences that have been beaten to death ... but the OP raised the concern of a double standard. That is worthy of discussion yet all anyone is doing is defending or disliking the individuals involved. I want to get beyond that dead end discussion and get to the root of the OP ... why is Sano being treated so differently than Mauer was? Why the double standard? What is the root of that? After all, wasn’t that the point of the OP?

 

And my name is spelled Carole.

[ewen21]

WHY the double standard is tricky because even if certain elements of it are blatantly obvious it seems to stir up hostility in some folks.  I will come right out and say the Twins were far more protective of Mauer than of any player I have seen.  They pinned a big contract on him and with that he was a major selling point for the fan base.  With him being the hometown kid he became more like a product than a ballplayer.

 

Add to this the fact that Mauer was a very genteel soul who embodied "Minnesota nice".  I do not resent him for that in any way.  I do, however, take him to task for not being more aware of certain responsibilities.  First and foremost, he responsibility to be in peak physical condition.  I understand not all guys are, but he was held up as the gold standard of what a player should be AND he was sorely lacking in the off season strength training department.  He could have led silently in that area in the same way Josh Willingham did.  Guys like Plouffe and Dozier raved about the work Willingham did during the off season and they tried to pattern themselves after his regimen.  These players don't have nearly the talent of Mauer but they were veterans other players followed and it shouldn't have been that way.

 

A lot was made about Joe not being a RAH RAH guy.  OK, so what?  I never asked him to be.  I just wanted him to understand his standard was a higher standard and he never got that, unfortunately.  Worse still, no one in the Twins found a way to get that point across to him.  They pretty much let Joe be Joe and didn't teach him.

 

As far as Sano is concerned, the Twins have made no real investment in him yet..  Whereas Joe had already proved himself to the Twins AND was the hometown hero, Sano has none of that going for him.  The Twins have a whole lot more leverage on Sano than they did Mauer and Sano has proven to have off the field issues besides obvious weight issues.  The Twins are playing hardball with Sano now and it should not be hard because Sano is still playing for a contract.  Mauer was not.  They Twins are (and rightly so) using this leverage to push Sano.

 

Look, players are all treated differently and for myriad reasons.  I am not trying to speak for Dr. Neau, but I think he saw Mauer's "special treatment" as a detriment and he'd rather not see such a pronounced example of it again.  Nor would I, although I happen to think the Twins are 100% right to take an aggressive approach with both Sano AND Buxton.

 

Looking back. I wish the Twins provided more guidance for Mauer.  He was pretty much allowed to operate on his own terms and this really destroyed two things: communication and accountability.  The past regime really had no idea how to get the most out of Mauer.  Mauer got there by himself on raw ability and then he hit a fork in the road at age 28.  The Twins never attempted to steer him down any path.  He just took his own path and whatever he did was OK with them.  I feel Joe's final 8 years could have be a whole lot more productive with the proper guidance and usage.  Thank GOD this is an old discussion, but since you ask.....

 

Obviously we cannot afford to do that with Sano or Buxton. Growing up this environment seems to have confused both.  Not sure if they both think they have Mauer rules.  Feels like they think they do.

[diehardtwinsfan]

So ewen, do you even know what Mauer's offseason program was? There's a lot of assumption in this post about what he was and wasn't doing based on some rather information posted here.

 

Oh, and the Twins have made no real investment in Sano? He was the largest IFA contract they had handed out when he was signed... by an org not known for handing out large checks. 

 

[Number3]

I think that the over riding point in all of this is that Joe Mauer had free reign to do whatever he pleased in all facets of the game including, but not limited to, off season conditioning. A bubble was constructed around him and he was untouchable in all , repeat, all aspects of his employment as a Minnesota Twin. That included his hitting approach, when to play and when not to play or dh,and many other travel and off the field perks which I am sure have not been revealed.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

I think that the over riding point assumption in all of this is that Joe Mauer had free reign to do whatever he pleased in all facets of the game including, but not limited to, off season conditioning. A bubble was constructed around him and he was untouchable in all , repeat, all aspects of his employment as a Minnesota Twin. That included his hitting approach, when to play and when not to play or dh,and many other travel and off the field perks which I am sure have not been revealed.

Fixed this for you. I'm not a Mauer lover by any means, but the amount of conjecture in this thread is pretty thick. 

[ewen21]

 

 

So ewen, do you even know what Mauer's offseason program was? There's a lot of assumption in this post about what he was and wasn't doing based on some rather information posted here.

 

Oh, and the Twins have made no real investment in Sano? He was the largest IFA contract they had handed out when he was signed... by an org not known for handing out large checks. 

Where are "a lot of assumptions" being made in my post?  Why in the heck do I need to have surveillance on him to know whether or not he did adequate strength training?  He came into camp looking like hell and I started a thread in mlb.com about it because it was that alarming to me.  I am not going to cite articles because I have been down that road and some people just refuse to see what they do not want to see.

 

The fact is, he needed to "build strength" DURING the 2011 and the world renowned Mayo Clinic could only diagnose him with bi-lateral leg weakness.  He was so inactive during that off season his legs atrophied.  That is their diagnosis and not mine. However, it was fairly obvious to me within seconds of seeing him in that camp that something wasn't right.  How does it come to that?  Through a comprehension strength and conditioning program?  

 

As far as Sano goes, that investment in him was made back in 2009 by an entirely different regime and it is about 175 million dollars shy of the investment the Twins made in Joe.