General politics

[LaBombo]

 

I guess I had not realized it was satire, but I believe you are correct. OTOH, mocking the dems, well, that's what bullies do. 

 

Living here, the GOP is not exactly interested in solving any problems, other than lowering taxes and removing any regulation related to clean air, water, land. Other than that? I guess anti abortion. 

 

I'm not going to try to change your mind about the GOP in your state, or in general. I'm also not taking sides in the larger debate about their evading the quorum.

 

I think that Republican leadership should have done more to condemn Boquist's comments and rebuke militia overtures ('If you want to help our cause, leave the guns and camo at home! Bring signs and gatorade!') about "protection". Even the satire tweet was a bad choice given the serious nature of the situation.

 

 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Interesting choice, since the only new information about the story in Ms Feldman's tweet ("then the emboldened militiamen turned up"!) is false. The lone photo in the article she links to, of a person in militia dress, is from 2017, the only sources listed regarding the need for a shutdown b//c of security concerns are Democrats, and the article admits that Republicans wanted nothing to do with the militia and rejected their offer of "protection".

 

But I'm glad you posted it anyway, since Ms Feldman lists her job at LAT as "investigative reporter", and I thinks it's instructive to note that LAT is willing to staff that position with a person who either made up a story from a file photo or knowingly gave false information.

I think this particular story was about cancelling senate, not so much the militia showing up, despite the photo—more on that in a minute. As far as that goes, i can’t really find much fault with the story. It appears the Senate was advised of a credible threat against them, and they chose to cancel. Here is the passage I think supports my take on it:

 

 

Sen. Elizabeth Steiner Hayward (D-Portland) posted on social media a text message from Senate leadership, stating that the Saturday session was cancelled.

 

"The State Police Superintendent just informed the Senate President of a credible threat from militia groups coming to the Capitol tomorrow," the message says. "The Superintendent strongly recommends that no one come to the Capitol and President [Peter] Courtney heeded that advice minutes ago."

Republicans in Oregon should have simply stayed in town and voted. In my opinion, this is a business regulation bill, not a climate bill, and therefore it can be reversed in future sessions. At risk of losing some of my liberal cred, I doubt very much a state level cap and trade bill will help reverse 12,000 years of melting glaciers, no matter how good Oregon Dems feel about the bill. Likewise, when Wisconsin Democrats were faced with those anti-union bills when Walker was elected, they were best advised to simply vote their vote. Instead they attempted to undo the entire election with that recall. We see how that has turned out. The Texas example of Democrats fleeing the state, in your earlier post, I do understand that, however. That was a redistricting issue and more akin to killing off their political existence. But anyway.

 

The misleading photo is a symptom of how corrupt the media has become. I prefer tame profile or stock photos, to marketing photos as you see here. I should get into it more or go find some good writing on it but whatever, (spent too much time on this post already). Here’s the typical thinking: Good news story for Bush/Obama/Trump? Quick, find a photo of them preening and smiling wide! Bad news for the president? Run the photo of them frowning and looking downcast! (even though it’s probably just a photo of them reading the paper, cropped for effect). This manipulation of photography is not something many people notice but that has an insidious effect on how we perceive etc etc yada yada. All news orgs seem to do this now. Instead of just reporting to you, they want to elicit an emotion too. So I’m really glad you pointed out that was a misleading photo not from the event, because I wouldn’t have noticed otherwise. In defense of the news reporter, the choice of photo was probably not made by her, but a manager or IT person. Ok, my rambling is done.

[biggentleben]

 

I'm not going to try to change your mind about the GOP in your state, or in general. I'm also not taking sides in the larger debate about their evading the quorum.

 

I think that Republican leadership should have done more to condemn Boquist's comments and rebuke militia overtures ('If you want to help our cause, leave the guns and camo at home! Bring signs and gatorade!') about "protection". Even the satire tweet was a bad choice given the serious nature of the situation.

 

I'll echo Mike on not understanding that was supposed to be satire, but like you said, this is not exactly the topic to choose to pick for a satirical moment for the state's GOP caucus.

[Squirrel]

Family separations continue, and these children are put in the most horrific conditions. This is an American concentration camp. We, as a society, have failed. These are the most vulnerable humans and we have failed them and continue to fail them. And Trump defends this.

BINFORD: This was, by far, the worst situation that I've seen not just by the conditions but by the sheer number of children who are being kept at this facility and being kept in really dangerous, unsanitary conditions. Literally, one of the children said that, currently, there are 100 children in his cell and that when he first arrived there, there were 300 children in the cell. I drove around the outside of the compound to try and find out what he was referring to. And it is a metal warehouse that was set up recently that Border Patrol said increased their maximum occupancy from 104 adults to 600. We know that they do have over 350 children there as of Monday when we arrived and that over a hundred of these children were young children. We saw no windows in the warehouse. And the children reported that they seldom get to go outside. One child reported that the highlight of their day is that when they come in to clean the cell, the children are able to go out in the hallway. And that's the highlight of their day.

 

https://www.npr.org/2019/06/23/735191289/law-professor-describes-poor-conditions-where-migrant-children-are-held

[Mike Sixel]

Just texted a good friend of mine who was close to being the mayor of St Louis Park, and asked if he was happy he wasn't mayor right now....

[Squirrel]

Just texted a good friend of mine who was close to being the mayor of St Louis Park, and asked if he was happy he wasn't mayor right now....

I don’t know the back story on this. ?

[Mike Sixel]

I don’t know the back story on this. ?

The city council banned the pledge of allegiance at city meetings.....

[ewen21]

Family separations continue, and these children are put in the most horrific conditions. This is an American concentration camp. We, as a society, have failed. These are the most vulnerable humans and we have failed them and continue to fail them. And Trump defends this.

BINFORD: This was, by far, the worst situation that I've seen not just by the conditions but by the sheer number of children who are being kept at this facility and being kept in really dangerous, unsanitary conditions. Literally, one of the children said that, currently, there are 100 children in his cell and that when he first arrived there, there were 300 children in the cell. I drove around the outside of the compound to try and find out what he was referring to. And it is a metal warehouse that was set up recently that Border Patrol said increased their maximum occupancy from 104 adults to 600. We know that they do have over 350 children there as of Monday when we arrived and that over a hundred of these children were young children. We saw no windows in the warehouse. And the children reported that they seldom get to go outside. One child reported that the highlight of their day is that when they come in to clean the cell, the children are able to go out in the hallway. And that's the highlight of their day.

 

https://www.npr.org/2019/06/23/735191289/law-professor-describes-poor-conditions-where-migrant-children-are-held

Please.

These are not concentration camps. The conditions are what they are due to a mass migration and they cannot be accommodated due to the sheer numbers. These people were not systematically rounded up and put there. They came of their own volition.

 

I was talking about this stuff when lots of democrats insisted it was a "manufacturered crisis" all the way up to a few months ago. These conditions were not purposely set up to be this way nor were they designed to enslave or imprison these people. Thus, these are not "concentration camps"

 

This isn't to say conditions aren't bad, but make the distinction between WWII internment camps set up for Japanese Americans where they actually were taken from their homes, rounded up and required by law to be there. Don't even try to draw a parallel between this and what happened in Nazi Germany.

[ewen21]

The city council banned the pledge of allegiance at city meetings.....

One thing that binds us together is that we are all one nation under that flag. Are we now going to spend more effort defining differences as opposed to operating common ground?

 

What could be the reason for this ruling? I sure would like to know. We know that the flag has become offensive to some, but not me

[Mike Sixel]

One thing that binds us together is that we are all one nation under that flag. Are we now going to spend more effort defining differences as opposed to operating common ground?

 

What could be the reason for this ruling? I sure would like to know. We know that the flag has become offensive to some, but not me

pretty sure under God is the issue.....

 

But we cares? Pledging allegiance is hardly about freedom.

[ewen21]

pretty sure under God is the issue.....

 

But we cares? Pledging allegiance is hardly about freedom.

Im sure it's about God

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

One thing that binds us together is that we are all one nation under that flag. Are we now going to spend more effort defining differences as opposed to operating common ground?

What could be the reason for this ruling? I sure would like to know. We know that the flag has become offensive to some, but not me

It's high time "Under God" was removed from the pledge, as its origins are pretty disgusting. Until 1954 and the Red Scare, the pledge had various incarnations, all of which were secular and about the unity of a nation, not allegiance to a deity.

 

Fear of godless commies added "under god" and that hardly seems like a reason to keep it around in the 21st century as the nation becomes less and less religious.

[ewen21]

It's high time "Under God" was removed from the pledge, as its origins are pretty disgusting. Until 1954 and the Red Scare, the pledge had various incarnations, all of which were secular and about the unity of a nation, not allegiance to a deity.

 

Fear of godless commies added "under god" and that hardly seems like a reason to keep it around in the 21st century as the nation becomes less and less religious.

The Pledge is done each morning in my school and I do not require that anyone stand or recite the words. I do, however, teach what it is represents to me. I see the overall message as being positive and I try to portray it in that light.

 

Your response suggests the Pledge represents something pernicious. If I am reading you right you're going to have to explain that to me. Also, if you taught in a public school that recited the Pledge would you actually object?

[PseudoSABR]

The pledge is weird in any case.  Why does a free country make school children pledge their allegiance? Seems paranoid and Orwellian to me.  

[ewen21]

No one "makes them" do it. I already said thet.

 

The fact that you see it as "Orwellian" would make you an isolated minority. If you want to believe that then believe it

[PseudoSABR]

 

No one "makes them" do it. I already said thet.

The fact that you see it as "Orwellian" would make you an isolated minority. If you want to believe that then believe it

You don't make them do it--you can't speak for everyone.  It sure felt obligatory when I was going to school. 

 

 

[Badsmerf]

The pledge is strange to me, as is the national anthem before every sporting event possible. Just seems very cold war, iron curtain type tradition. It is the type of thing I could see dictatorships like Venezuela and Fidel Castro led Cuba, and Sudam Hussein led Iraq requiring. It isn't offensive to me, just dated and a little dumb. The God part makes my eye roll bigger.

[ewen21]

You guys sure are unique. I have not come in contact with too many people who get this bent out of shape about the Pledge of Allegiance. NY state public schools are very liberal places, as a matter of fact. Even there I don't see people getting all panicked over it like you all have here.

 

A little something about my school district and it was not an isolated thing...

When the Trump inauguration was about to happen several hours before we were directed via email not to show it in our classrooms. I showed it anyway. You guys inject McCarthyism, Orwell and Cuba into this discussion on the Pledge. Is this email sent by the administration in my school district to the teaching staff not worthy of a similar designation?

 

Not that I'd call it that, but according to your standards it is

[ewen21]

You don't make them do it--you can't speak for everyone. It sure felt obligatory when I was going to school.

If you were in my class you could have sat through it. I never ask anyone to stand. Just respect the 15 second recitation and keep quiet. If it pained you too much to witness it then I would have worked with you to try to ensure you weren't traumatized.

 

Although, I have to say, I never dealt with any such case in all my years

[Badsmerf]

I'm not bent it out of shape about it, just think its kinda dumb. It is much more powerful learning about our history and the injustice we rose up against. The pledge, the National anthem... just the type of thing that makes others around the world roll their eyes at us.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

If I am reading you right you're going to have to explain that to me. Also, if you taught in a public school that recited the Pledge would you actually object?

Yes. I believe this country was founded on secular beliefs and will protest any religious interference into its core beliefs.

See, not all of us "liberals" are the same (I'm actually not really a liberal but whatever). Where Pseudo has an issue with the pledge, I do not. I believe America was founded on some pretty solid principles and I will pledge to those principles without hesitation.

 

Where I think both Pseudo and I agree is that America all too often fails to live up to those principles. 

 

Therefore, "under god" is a bridge too far for me while Pseudo has a bridge a little further down the line.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

You guys sure are unique. I have not come in contact with too many people who get this bent out of shape about the Pledge of Allegiance. NY state public schools are very liberal places, as a matter of fact. Even there I don't see people getting all panicked over it like you all have here.

A little something about my school district and it was not an isolated thing...
When the Trump inauguration was about to happen several hours before we were directed via email not to show it in our classrooms. I showed it anyway. You guys inject McCarthyism, Orwell and Cuba into this discussion on the Pledge. Is this email sent by the administration in my school district to the teaching staff not worthy of a similar designation?

Not that I'd call it that, but according to your standards it is

Weird, because I went to school in southern California close to 30 years ago and we had a problem with the pledge at that time.

 

Maybe you don't represent the entirety of America. Just sayin'.

[ewen21]

I'm not a church goer, but under God doesn't bother me. So you know, the separation of church and state was so that the government wouldn't interfere with the church. It wasn't the other way around.

 

Also, the change to "under God" was not some measure rooted in McCarthyism as was intimated earlier. I suggest everyone read Dwight D. Eisenhower's expressed intent was to make the pledge multi-denominational.

 

I'm fine with the Pledge one way or another and don't get the negative reaction to it expressed earlier

[PseudoSABR]

 

You guys sure are unique. I have not come in contact with too many people who get this bent out of shape about the Pledge of Allegiance. NY state public schools are very liberal places, as a matter of fact. Even there I don't see people getting all panicked over it like you all have here.

A little something about my school district and it was not an isolated thing...
When the Trump inauguration was about to happen several hours before we were directed via email not to show it in our classrooms. I showed it anyway. You guys inject McCarthyism, Orwell and Cuba into this discussion on the Pledge. Is this email sent by the administration in my school district to the teaching staff not worthy of a similar designation?

Not that I'd call it that, but according to your standards it is

First of all, I'm proud of you for giving space for kids who do not want to participate, seriously good for you! However, am I fair to guess that few, if any, opt out?

 

That said, we aren't all that unique; it's simply most adults aren't faced with having to give the pledge of allegiance.  I recall that movie Runaway Jury where the mole in jury convinces everyone to say the pledge, and how everyone is like wtf is this.  As children we don't think twice about how weird it is.  But it is weird.  Maybe teachers are so institutionalized they don't either, but it's super odd for a free society to ask children to prove their patriotism by oath, each day before beginning their education.  Yes, it's what makes dystopian fiction.

[ewen21]

I tell my students it's the one time each day the entire building everyone is doing the same thing. I define words like liberty and allegiance and on the other hand I tell them there is no such thing as "true freedom". That we can't do whatever whenever we want. Laws exist to protect all of us. In all honesty I have had days when I don't stand. What I do require is silence during that time.

 

I had 21 students this year and 8 were Hispanic. Some of them from the northern triangle nations of Central America and a couple of them were the most enthusiastic about learning US geography and history. I think the flag is symbolic of togetherness

[Squirrel]

I thought saying the pledge in schools was something schools couldn’t require, based on a case where someone refused and was expelled? Didn’t it go to the SC, and now schools cannot require it? Don’t recall the details, but I think it involved a school somewhere in Texas, of course.

 

If I were a teacher, I would also use the pledge as a teaching opportunity, as ewen has said he does. Depending on the grade and ages of students, I would discuss its origins, the author, how it has changed through the years and why, its meaning and definitions of the words. (As a 5 yr old, I could barely pronounce everything, let alone understand individual meanings of the words, let alone understand why we did this). So often with these various traditions we have surrounding the symbols of our country, it has become recitation without understanding or meaning or feeling. I think it’s important that students have genuine understanding, and then, as adults, can make choices of patriotism that have true meaning to them, and not simply to do it because that’s just how and what is done. And be respectful of everyone’s choices in the matter.

 

We said the pledge and sang ‘My Country ‘Tis of Thee’ every morning when I was in grade school, with our hands over our hearts. It was just what we learned to do and did. It was a little ... robotic and indoctrinating ... for lack of a better description, as it was simply ‘Do this because this is what we do and you’ll get in trouble if you don’t.’

[ewen21]

The Pledge is done but no one is compelled to stand with hand on heart and recite it.

 

I am reading so much negative--almost fearful--commentary on it here and that is so not the feeling I get (or see) when it's done daily in my school. I guess you can frame it however you want, but I choose to see the positive because I just don't see anything wrong with it. I was in the same classroom when 9-11 happened and in the months that followed everyone was a little more patriotic and a bit nice.

 

 

It's a shame that patriotism is being referred to as something robotic, stifling and dated. I don't see that, but hey...to each his/her own. I'm only trying to explain my experience and I not trying to convince anyone to love or like the Pledge

[Mike Sixel]

I'm not for or against it, I just don't get why anyone thinks under God is inclusive at all.

 

As for anthems at sporting events,I hate that. But then, I think tribalism is one of the best and worst things for us.... As a society

[Craig Arko]

I'm not for or against it, I just don't get why anyone thinks under God is inclusive at all.

As for anthems at sporting events,I hate that. But then, I think tribalism is one of the best and worst things for us.... As a society

Yeah, I also view nationalism as an indicator of societal immaturity. And venerating laundry is a hard-core example of that.

[ewen21]

I'm not for or against it, I just don't get why anyone thinks under God is inclusive at all.

 

As for anthems at sporting events,I hate that. But then, I think tribalism is one of the best and worst things for us.... As a society

You actually "hate" hearing the national anthem at a sporting event?

 

That about sums it up for me. The over-the-top negative reaction to these things I will never understand. It's so innocuous and small yet people like yourself latch onto "hate" for it?

 

I see it as a bonding thing. One nation, many cultures become a melting pot. I guess not, eh?

 

I'm out.