Affiliate Reshuffle?

[biggentleben]

 

It's interesting (to me, at least) that no affiliations have been extended beyond 2020, because that's when the governing agreement between MLB and MiLB expires. Typically, that agreement has been routinely extended several years prior to expiration, so that teams can extend their affiliations well into the future.

 

It's not happening this time and speculation is that it's because MLB teams are waiting for resolution of the legal challenges regarding minor league pay. MLB teams continue to pressure their affiliates to lobby local Congressmen on their behalf by holding the threat of minor league contraction and/or changes to revenue/cost sharing provisions in the next MLB/MiLB agreement over the affiliates heads.

 

If legal challenges result in higher minor leaguer pay, MLB suggests they may cut back the number of levels of affiliated minor leagues or insist their affiliates pay a greater share of revenues to the MLB parent, to make up for the additional pay costs. 

 

It's shameful, given the comparative financial statuses of parent organizations vs their affiliates and MiLB players, but that's MLB for you.

 

Anyway, the point is, I wouldn't look to see much change in affiliations until the legal challenges regarding minor league pay and, thus, the next working agreement between MLB & MiLB get settled.

 

I think an increase in pay to players will lead to an increase in teams owning their affiliates. It will hurt leagues like the Carolina League, where they've tried hard not to have team-owned affiliates. However, if teams now have to pay more to their players, they'll want to milk every nickel out of the minor league system, meaning the local community will likely build a ballpark for the team and make no money on the happenings within the stadium.

[old nurse]

 

When I was in college in the late 80s and early 90s our AAA affiliate was Portland. I do not know why this changed to Salt Lake and eventually Rochester but I went to college with a guy from Portland and he was a big Twins Fan because of the affiliation. He made it sound like there were lots of Twins fans in Portland. I rarely saw him without his Twins hat on. It helps that we won two World Series during that time but I always hated that we lost Portland.

PGE Park was renovated for soccer so there was no longer a baseball stadium.

[old nurse]

 

 

I think an increase in pay to players will lead to an increase in teams owning their affiliates. It will hurt leagues like the Carolina League, where they've tried hard not to have team-owned affiliates. However, if teams now have to pay more to their players, they'll want to milk every nickel out of the minor league system, meaning the local community will likely build a ballpark for the team and make no money on the happenings within the stadium.

I was not aware that there were nothing but sellouts at minor league parks to need better stadiums.

 

The cost of a minor league player is directly proportional to the value they bring to the parent club. The minor league players  that can make a lot of money are the AAAA player.  There is a reason they bounce from organization to organization.

[peterb18]

It looks tough for the Twins geographically to get a closer AAA team. 

 

It looks to me like Gwinnett, the Braves affiliate is easily the worst drawing team, maybe that'a the opportunity for a more local team for the Twins. If the IL would kick Gwinnett out due to attendance, then I'd think Charlotte and Durham would probably fight over getting the Braves which would cause other team's to  have to reshuffle. One team would be left without a home and even though I'm sure the IL would have final say over which city is added, I'd think the MLB club sponsoring them would at least have some pull.

 

With the new stadium and some of the best attendance in all the minor leagues, perhaps St. Paul would be pretty attractive?

Independent baseball seems to be pretty lucrative for Saints ownership. They call all the shots now.....and

would Veek and the other owners want to give up some control?

[biggentleben]

 

I was not aware that there were nothing but sellouts at minor league parks to need better stadiums.

 

The cost of a minor league player is directly proportional to the value they bring to the parent club. The minor league players  that can make a lot of money are the AAAA player.  There is a reason they bounce from organization to organization.

 

The attendance of the games themselves aren't the only things that the team can cost a community when the team owns the affiliate. They own the licensing for the logo as well, which is something the community would earn otherwise. Any events that happen at the stadium outside of baseball go to the community when the community owns the team, but not if the team does, even if the community builds the stadium....

[Rosterman]

The costs of paying a minor league player more should be paid by the major league club. Playing in the minors starts as a sort of internship (where some do have bonus money to come and play) and if you can survive and hold-out, six year minor league free agents do pretty well in the scheme of things, if you look at what many a 24-26 year-old can make in this world. The lowpay also makes it more of a challenge than a keeper job. Your ability will see you paid more, find work in winter leagues et al on your way to the golden ticket of a major league job, and then a great pension etc. Many try, but few go the whole nine yards down the basepath.

 

But if you doubled the salaries paid to the 140 or so people uniforming up in the minors, it would be a pittance compared to the bonus money you pay out every season (much of it to guys who don't make it into their third year in the system).

 

So, yes, I would like to see a bit more money spent on players. It can be a challenge to eat right, have freedom to have something more than a sleeping room. The joy is that minor league facilities are slowly improving so they aren't a bad place to hang out all day, many with food service, great workout rooms, laundry and stuff. You are playing everyday or working out, so don't really have time to spend a lot of money, which is often good, because you don't have a lot of money.

 

And in regards to shifting minor league sites? You have to wait for a contract to open up, and then teams will bid if it is a classy joint to play. So affiliates don't change all that much, unless a team has a really strong run of bad play somewhere and a place can do better (they do rely on butts in the seats and food and everything else that comes with a winning team). The pain is when you are then forced to take-on a less that fine facility.

 

At some point the Saints will become someone's minor league affifialte. The stadium is too good to be indy ball. And then the players will make more playing in a major league system (when you argue minor league salaries, think about how much the indy ball guys make). And I would rather see it as a Twins A or AA park than one for another team.

 

Ownership would not have to change. Ft. Myers Miracle are owned NOT by the Twins, but another entity, although the Twins own the majority of the facilities with the city, I believe.

[old nurse]

 

The attendance of the games themselves aren't the only things that the team can cost a community when the team owns the affiliate. They own the licensing for the logo as well, which is something the community would earn otherwise. Any events that happen at the stadium outside of baseball go to the community when the community owns the team, but not if the team does, even if the community builds the stadium....

You are assuming the local cities own the team. There may be a few, but the teams are generally owned by someone, not the community.

[Guest]

 

I think an increase in pay to players will lead to an increase in teams owning their affiliates. It will hurt leagues like the Carolina League, where they've tried hard not to have team-owned affiliates. However, if teams now have to pay more to their players, they'll want to milk every nickel out of the minor league system, meaning the local community will likely build a ballpark for the team and make no money on the happenings within the stadium.

Minor league teams (at least at the lower levels) already make no money. That's why so many of them are "community owned" and just do their best to at least break even financially, with some money set aside each year for capital improvements to their facilities.

 

Minor league teams owned by parent affiliates aren't going to be money-makers for the parent. 

 

[kab21]

 

At some point the Saints will become someone's minor league affifialte. The stadium is too good to be indy ball. And then the players will make more playing in a major league system (when you argue minor league salaries, think about how much the indy ball guys make). And I would rather see it as a Twins A or AA park than one for another team.

I agree that affiliates don't change much but it is also very, very difficult to add teams to a league (through subtraction of another team).

 

St. Paul only works geographically for the Midwest league and for AAA. I doubt the stadium is at the AAA level so that leaves the Midwest League. I don't see the Midwest League moving into a major urban city. And there is still the monumental task of removing one team from either league to create an opening. A team could move but that is still a difficult task.

[biggentleben]

Affiliates change quite a bit. Typically every 2-3 years there's what's known in the prospect world as "affiliate shuffle". When the Braves moved to Carolina, roughly 3/4 of the Carolina League changed hands that season. Two years later, the Braves moved to the Florida State League as two teams left the California League and moved into the Carolina League.

[Thrylos]

 

I agree that affiliates don't change much but it is also very, very difficult to add teams to a league (through subtraction of another team).

 

St. Paul only works geographically for the Midwest league and for AAA. I doubt the stadium is at the AAA level so that leaves the Midwest League. I don't see the Midwest League moving into a major urban city. And there is still the monumental task of removing one team from either league to create an opening. A team could move but that is still a difficult task.

 

Thus the advantage of full Twins'-owned affiliates:  They can move them whereever they want.  To accomplish that, in the Midwest League, the Twins would have to buy eg. Beloit (with their horrible facilities) and move them to the Cities (or likely Rochester or Austin,MN  that will be a better fit)

[IndianaTwin]

 

I'm a bit selfish, but I'd love to see them dump Rochester and pick up Indianapolis.

 

Yeah, I could be convinced.

                           (signed) IndianaTwin

[biggentleben]

 

Minor league teams (at least at the lower levels) already make no money. That's why so many of them are "community owned" and just do their best to at least break even financially, with some money set aside each year for capital improvements to their facilities.

 

Minor league teams owned by parent affiliates aren't going to be money-makers for the parent. 

 

It's less about making money as controlling where their money is going. The teams won't be owning the affiliate in order to make a profit, but in order to control how the money spent on players is being used. They can control the quality of all aspects of the facility their players are being developed in.

[biggentleben]

 

You are assuming the local cities own the team. There may be a few, but the teams are generally owned by someone, not the community.

 

It's much more frequent that the city owns the facilities and the team in the minor leagues if the affiliate isn't owned by the major league team. The individuals that own minor league teams are notable because they are fairly few and far between. It's typically something the community owns and runs through a branch of the city council.

[old nurse]

 

It's much more frequent that the city owns the facilities and the team in the minor leagues if the affiliate isn't owned by the major league team. The individuals that own minor league teams are notable because they are fairly few and far between. It's typically something the community owns and runs through a branch of the city council.

The cities own the stadiums, not the teams. In his lifetime Joe Buzas owned 83 different teams.  I realy doubt he kept buying and selling the same teams. You can have opinions on who owns teams, but not any real idea. The ownership of a minor league team is a small but potentially profitable business. When they are sold it is usually done through brokers.  Teams do not market the owner nor the players. They market the experience of a game. A show if you will.  Mike Veeck was quoted on owning the Butte Copper Kings as a team that lost money every year.  No community that has low level baseball could survive that.

[biggentleben]

 

The cities own the stadiums, not the teams. In his lifetime Joe Buzas owned 83 different teams.  I realy doubt he kept buying and selling the same teams. You can have opinions on who owns teams, but not any real idea. The ownership of a minor league team is a small but potentially profitable business. When they are sold it is usually done through brokers.  Teams do not market the owner nor the players. They market the experience of a game. A show if you will.  Mike Veeck was quoted on owning the Butte Copper Kings as a team that lost money every year.  No community that has low level baseball could survive that.

 

That is true in some cases, not all. Many of the teams in certain leagues have the set up that you describe. In other leagues, they do not even allow for private ownership of a team.

[old nurse]

 

That is true in some cases, not all. Many of the teams in certain leagues have the set up that you describe. In other leagues, they do not even allow for private ownership of a team.

Which ones?

[spinowner]

Just now got around to reading this. There will never be a AAA affiliate close to Minneapolis. There needs to be a AAA-quality stadium and a population large enough to generate satisfactory attendance. Des Moines is as close as we could expect to get and the Cubs will never give that up.

[drjim]

Just now got around to reading this. There will never be a AAA affiliate close to Minneapolis. There needs to be a AAA-quality stadium and a population large enough to generate satisfactory attendance. Des Moines is as close as we could expect to get and the Cubs will never give that up.

Rochester, MN could probably pull it off. Seems that AAA teams are in large stand alone cities or in smaller ones that are relatively close to the big league city.

[biggentleben]

 

Which ones?

 

The Carolina League had a rule against team ownership that they removed in order to allow the new members of the league this year. The Northwest League requires all owners to be through a third party, not a direct individual ownership. The most notable is a husband and wife owner in that league who formed a LLC in order to get around that requirement. Those are two I know of off the top of my head that have specific rules on who can or cannot own the team.

[old nurse]

 

The Carolina League had a rule against team ownership that they removed in order to allow the new members of the league this year. The Northwest League requires all owners to be through a third party, not a direct individual ownership. The most notable is a husband and wife owner in that league who formed a LLC in order to get around that requirement. Those are two I know of off the top of my head that have specific rules on who can or cannot own the team.

It's typically something the community owns and runs through a branch of the city council.

 

That is what you said of owners in post 44. Carolina League/ The new Kingston franchise is owned by the Rangers. Your comment on the Northwest league runs contrary to what you said earlier.

[spinowner]

 

Rochester, MN could probably pull it off. Seems that AAA teams are in large stand alone cities or in smaller ones that are relatively close to the big league city.

I really doubt it. They'd need to build a new stadium and it's not even close to the same population range as almost all AAA locations. For example, Monroe county, New York, has a population of about 750,000. Polk county, Iowa, is at about 470,000. Olmstead county is at about 153,000. There would be a small bump in potential attendance due to the team being the Twins' AAA affiliate but I highly doubt that that would be enough to make it a viable location.

[drjim]

I really doubt it. They'd need to build a new stadium and it's not even close to the same population range as almost all AAA locations. For example, Monroe county, New York, has a population of about 750,000. Polk county, Iowa, is at about 470,000. Olmstead county is at about 153,000. There would be a small bump in potential attendance due to the team being the Twins' AAA affiliate but I highly doubt that that would be enough to make it a viable location.

Probably true. They certainly need a stadium. But the metro area is about 250k, there are some ok sized cities within 30 minutes, and metro is 1.5 hours away.

[biggentleben]

 

It's typically something the community owns and runs through a branch of the city council.

 

That is what you said of owners in post 44. Carolina League/ The new Kingston franchise is owned by the Rangers. Your comment on the Northwest league runs contrary to what you said earlier.

 

No it does not. I've stated multiple times that the Carolina League changed long-held rules recently on team ownership. I have not stated that all teams are community owned at any time. I stated that more were community owned and run than was being portrayed. I'll freely admit that my comment regarding a league having a rule requiring community ownership goes back to an interview I did with Bill Smith when he moved into the minor league baseball league offices. If he was mistaken, I never back-checked that bit of information, and that's on me. I cannot find such a league now, though there certainly are rules against individual private ownership and have been rules against team ownership in leagues that exist (or in the Carolina League, existed until just last fall). The comment about true individual ownership being unique is quite true. Much like major league teams, most minor league teams owned by private individuals are still owned by multiple people who have pooled money together.

 

Those were the points I've debated in this discussion, but obviously it's not as much a discussion/debate regarding the existence of multiple facets as the extremes of any other facets existing, when that was never once the discussion, so I'll simply bow out at this point.

[nowheresville]

Bringing a minor league team, especially a AAA team, to Minnesota is one of those great white whales that people love to talk about, but just is never going to happen.

 

St. Paul's new stadium isn't up to AAA standards, and realistically, the PCL is the only league that St. Paul would fit into. There are no AA or High-A leagues even close, so those are out. Even for the Midwest League, St. Paul would be a significant outlier for the league, with the closest other parks still being a 4 hour drive away, and the farthest Eastern Division teams being more than 800 miles away. 

 

Rochester MN as a AAA city is a complete joke. They are among the bottom of the pack for attendance in the Northwoods League. They can't even draw 1,000 people, in a league where they have the advantage of only playing in the prime months of June, July, and August. Thinking that they are going to build, and then fill a stadium with 10,000 people, especially when you've got April and May games to consider is beyond unrealistic. You have to remember that "real minor league" baseball isn't a factor for the vast majority of the people who come to minor league games. 

 

That issue of early season games isn't insignificant either. The fact that the Northwoods League doesn't play in cold weather months has been a huge help for a lot of cities that used to have Midwest League teams. It's also a benefit for American Association teams like the Saints/Sioux Falls/Fargo who don't start playing until Mid-May.

 

Case in point, if there is a midwest city that could really be primed for AAA baseball, it would be Madison. It's got a big enough population, its NWL attendance is double the next closest team, you've even got the element that the Brewers AAA affiliate in Colorado Springs is considered the least desirable location in all of AAA and is the team most likely to move. However, there is no talk at all of doing it, because, one the Mallards have a great thing going as it is, with no reason to shake it up, and two, Madison has had "real" minor league baseball before, in the form of not one, but two, Midwest League teams, and both of them failed miserably. There isn't even talk of moving the Mallards back into the Midwest League, which would be a perfect geographic fit, because their fans don't care, they just want to sit outside, drink beer, and maybe watch a little baseball too. That is the reality of what minor league baseball is about, in the case of dollars and sense.

 

 

[Guest]

 

 

Case in point, if there is a midwest city that could really be primed for AAA baseball, it would be Madison. It's got a big enough population, its NWL attendance is double the next closest team, you've even got the element that the Brewers AAA affiliate in Colorado Springs is considered the least desirable location in all of AAA and is the team most likely to move. However, there is no talk at all of doing it, because, one the Mallards have a great thing going as it is, with no reason to shake it up, and two, Madison has had "real" minor league baseball before, in the form of not one, but two, Midwest League teams, and both of them failed miserably. There isn't even talk of moving the Mallards back into the Midwest League, which would be a perfect geographic fit, because their fans don't care, they just want to sit outside, drink beer, and maybe watch a little baseball too. That is the reality of what minor league baseball is about, in the case of dollars and sense.

 

That Beloit still has a MWL team, in Pohlman Field (the absolute worst ballpark in the MWL that has never come close to meeting what are supposed to be minimum MiLB standards), and Madison has been even less successful as a MWL locale is one of the great mysteries I will never quite understand.

[Thrylos]

 

That Beloit still has a MWL team, in Pohlman Field (the absolute worst ballpark in the MWL that has never come close to meeting what are supposed to be minimum MiLB standards), and Madison has been even less successful as a MWL locale is one of the great mysteries I will never quite understand.

 

Not sure about Beloit, but Madison is a College Town.  Do not know of a college town that kept a successful professional baseball franchise.     New Haven, CT, a 850K metro area could not keep the Ravens alive for more than 10 years before they moved.  Providence (Pawtucket) might be an exception, but that metro is 1.6M, plus is so close to Boston that gets a lot of attendance and support from the mothership...

[old nurse]

 

No it does not. I've stated multiple times that the Carolina League changed long-held rules recently on team ownership. I have not stated that all teams are community owned at any time. I stated that more were community owned and run than was being portrayed. I'll freely admit that my comment regarding a league having a rule requiring community ownership goes back to an interview I did with Bill Smith when he moved into the minor league baseball league offices. If he was mistaken, I never back-checked that bit of information, and that's on me. I cannot find such a league now, though there certainly are rules against individual private ownership and have been rules against team ownership in leagues that exist (or in the Carolina League, existed until just last fall). The comment about true individual ownership being unique is quite true. Much like major league teams, most minor league teams owned by private individuals are still owned by multiple people who have pooled money together.

 

Those were the points I've debated in this discussion, but obviously it's not as much a discussion/debate regarding the existence of multiple facets as the extremes of any other facets existing, when that was never once the discussion, so I'll simply bow out at this point.

Ihis is your statement you have yet to back up

 

It's much more frequent that the city owns the facilities and the team in the minor leagues if the affiliate isn't owned by the major league team. The individuals that own minor league teams are notable because they are fairly few and far between. It's typically something the community owns and runs through a branch of the city council.

 

How you have spun things from that statement is at best entertaining.  Please note you are the one that said it is typical for the community to own the team.

 

You come up with this gem

In other leagues, they do not even allow for private ownership of a team.

 

When asked to prove it, you can't.  Art Silber has owned the Potomac Nationals since 1990, so there is no rule against private ownership that recently changed

 

If you have some sort of institutional access this looks interesting

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/figure/10.1080/16184740500430173?scroll=top&needAccess=true

 

The writer is an economist with an interest in baseball.

https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=xApPbi8AAAAJ&hl=en

 

Not something you can look up from a phone ap

[old nurse]

 

 

Not sure about Beloit, but Madison is a College Town.  Do not know of a college town that kept a successful professional baseball franchise.     New Haven, CT, a 850K metro area could not keep the Ravens alive for more than 10 years before they moved.  Providence (Pawtucket) might be an exception, but that metro is 1.6M, plus is so close to Boston that gets a lot of attendance and support from the mothership...

Likely college town demographics are a bit different.  There can be a mass exodus of the beer drinking party crowd when baseball season starts. Also you do not need a baseball games when there are frat houses and the like for an outdoor party and beer.

[nowheresville]

 

Not sure about Beloit, but Madison is a College Town.  Do not know of a college town that kept a successful professional baseball franchise.   

 

Lansing, State College, Syracuse, Eugene, Lexington, Knoxville... those are just a handful of college towns off the top of my head that currently have successful minor league teams.

 

The thing working against most "college towns" is that you loose a significant portion of your population during the peak of the baseball season - the fact that Madison is thriving in the NWL when they play all of their games during the summer break (and failed twice at the Midwest League when 2 months of the games are during the school year) is a reminder that there is still a population of more than 500,000 people in Dane County who aren't students, and that it's certainly a big enough area that it doesn't need to rely on college students to fill the seats..