Don't tell me you're trying to win

[Doomtints]

Without getting into it too much, I believe they are trying to win. What they are also trying to do is build a pitching staff for the future. Yes, this argument is old as we heard it for years under TR, but in this case there is evidence that actually backs this up. The Twins are down a closer, but managed transform 1 pitching prospect into 2. Plus, guess what, Kintzler is a free agent next year and could be back!

 

A few more wins like yesterday and the Twins will believe in themselves again, and they might just manage to still be in contention through the last week of the season, something zero of us expected six months ago. If not for the resurgent Royals, the Twins would still be right there.

[Vanimal46]

 

Oh, is this not a playlist thread?

 

I like where your head is at, spy! 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRLHro9EPD0

[Otto von Ballpark]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMbIipvQL0c

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Here's a great duet for the next "Karoake with the Twins front office" event:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9shCDAnHulg

[SadMinnySportsFan]

Well, what front office is going to say "we're not trying anymore"? Kinda silly to get mad at that, of course they're going to say we're trying to win.
As for older guys like Colon, Belise, Gibby and Gee, it is slightly frustrating seeing the retreads out there. But only 3.5 back in August, can you blame them? In Sept, im sure young arms will get a shot. and, who are they blocking? There isn't any sure fire highly touted arms at AAA that are knocking on the door. They may also be trying to swing Colon/Belise in an August trade. IMO be patient till Sept.

[Taildragger8791]

 

A few more wins like yesterday and the Twins will believe in themselves again, and they might just manage to still be in contention through the last week of the season, something zero of us expected six months ago. If not for the resurgent Royals, the Twins would still be right there.

 

I think people are losing sight of things outside the division. We aren't just battling the pesky Royals for a wildcard spot. We also have the Rays, Mariners, and Orioles ahead of us as well as the Rangers and Blue jays right behind us. There's going to be quite a battle royale for the last wildcard spot.

[Brandon Warne]

 

You need  to check you statistics for the year comparing backup catchers and DH.

Varga doesn't draw walks, strikes out way too much to be more than a AAAA hitter.

 

Dozier too, FWIW. He's at 104 wRC+/.330 wOBA. AL average for 2B is 96/.317

[yarnivek1972]

 

I think people are losing sight of things outside the division. We aren't just battling the pesky Royals for a wildcard spot. We also have the Rays, Mariners, and Orioles ahead of us as well as the Rangers and Blue jays right behind us. There's going to be quite a battle royale for the last wildcard spot mere chance of the opportunity to get blown out of the water by the Astros.

ftfy

[ND-Fan]

The front  office waved the white  flag  when they traded Garcia. I think he was never intended as additional player he was chip to acquire the prospects from NY and he pitched so they could eat his salary.  Look back at the Two world series team of Twins if front offices had raised white flag like these guys we would not have had two world series wins. 87  Twins numbers were very similar to these Twins and yet they put it together at end won world championship.

For small market teams when your close to getting into the dance you try  to  stay competitive because you may not get another chance. I am almost 60 years old in my life time the Twins have had very few times when they could make the playoffs and even then most time they were flawed team. Only the 65 twins were what you call terrific  team and yet they lost the world series. Everybody says were not ready but I tell you unless your major market team your never ready. What happens next year say Sano gets hit by pitch say like this year breaks couple of bones in his hand and he's gone for rest of season and Buxton slides into outfield fence hurts knee what happens to our chances of winning. We sure don't go out trade for big time bat like new York or Chicago does we have another poor season. I have seen this to many times in my lifetime when you think you have a team ready to win it all something happens to the plan. Baseball is not football to many think like that in Minnesota and even in the media they think in terms of front offices moves are similar well there not. I was hoping this front office was going to fix what I  think has been longterm problem with the Twins in that we have had pitchers here and they go else where and they get fixed to where they become top pitcher. I am betting Kyle Gibson  will be one of these pitchers. Also same thing with power hitters Ortiz for example and now Vargas. I guess I leveled enough complaints but I believe you don't give up at least not until September and even then if your close you need to press on. Also you don't do give half hearted attempt to just keep people coming to ball park.

[SwainZag]

 

The front  office waved the white  flag  when they traded Garcia. I think he was never intended as additional player he was chip to acquire the prospects from NY and he pitched so they could eat his salary.  Look back at the Two world series team of Twins if front offices had raised white flag like these guys we would not have had two world series wins. 87  Twins numbers were very similar to these Twins and yet they put it together at end won world championship.

For small market teams when your close to getting into the dance you try  to  stay competitive because you may not get another chance. I am almost 60 years old in my life time the Twins have had very few times when they could make the playoffs and even then most time they were flawed team. Only the 65 twins were what you call terrific  team and yet they lost the world series. Everybody says were not ready but I tell you unless your major market team your never ready. What happens next year say Sano gets hit by pitch say like this year breaks couple of bones in his hand and he's gone for rest of season and Buxton slides into outfield fence hurts knee what happens to our chances of winning. We sure don't go out trade for big time bat like new York or Chicago does we have another poor season. I have seen this to many times in my lifetime when you think you have a team ready to win it all something happens to the plan. Baseball is not football to many think like that in Minnesota and even in the media they think in terms of front offices moves are similar well there not. I was hoping this front office was going to fix what I  think has been longterm problem with the Twins in that we have had pitchers here and they go else where and they get fixed to where they become top pitcher. I am betting Kyle Gibson  will be one of these pitchers. Also same thing with power hitters Ortiz for example and now Vargas. I guess I leveled enough complaints but I believe you don't give up at least not until September and even then if your close you need to press on. Also you don't do give half hearted attempt to just keep people coming to ball park.

 

Baseball in 1987 was much different than baseball in 2017.  Winning a poor division in 87 meant you were one 7 game series away from the Series, it's a much different ball game today.

[Craig Arko]

I'm not trying to win. May everyone's day be better for it.

[Taildragger8791]

 

Dozier too, FWIW. He's at 104 wRC+/.330 wOBA. AL average for 2B is 96/.317

 

In MLB he's 11th for wRC+, 12th for wOBA, and 13th in Fangraphs WAR (1.5). He's adequate defensively but nothing remarkable. So overall an average to slightly above average player but also still outside the top ten.

 

The thing these cumulative stats can't show is his streakiness at the plate. I'd argue that's a valid criticism of Dozier that you won't easily find in aggregate metrics like that. Consistency and situational performance directly affects wins/losses. You aren't helping your team by going on hot streaks and binges when it doesn't matter.

[ahart10]

Yonder Alonso was claimed by the Mariners and swapped with Boog Powell. If Twins were trying to win this year that could have been an easy pick up.

[Mr. Brooks]

The front office waved the white flag when they traded Garcia. I think he was never intended as additional player he was chip to acquire the prospects from NY and he pitched so they could eat his salary. Look back at the Two world series team of Twins if front offices had raised white flag like these guys we would not have had two world series wins. 87 Twins numbers were very similar to these Twins and yet they put it together at end won world championship.

For small market teams when your close to getting into the dance you try to stay competitive because you may not get another chance. I am almost 60 years old in my life time the Twins have had very few times when they could make the playoffs and even then most time they were flawed team. Only the 65 twins were what you call terrific team and yet they lost the world series. Everybody says were not ready but I tell you unless your major market team your never ready. What happens next year say Sano gets hit by pitch say like this year breaks couple of bones in his hand and he's gone for rest of season and Buxton slides into outfield fence hurts knee what happens to our chances of winning. We sure don't go out trade for big time bat like new York or Chicago does we have another poor season. I have seen this to many times in my lifetime when you think you have a team ready to win it all something happens to the plan. Baseball is not football to many think like that in Minnesota and even in the media they think in terms of front offices moves are similar well there not. I was hoping this front office was going to fix what I think has been longterm problem with the Twins in that we have had pitchers here and they go else where and they get fixed to where they become top pitcher. I am betting Kyle Gibson will be one of these pitchers. Also same thing with power hitters Ortiz for example and now Vargas. I guess I leveled enough complaints but I believe you don't give up at least not until September and even then if your close you need to press on. Also you don't do give half hearted attempt to just keep people coming to ball park.

The Twins are not a small market team.

The Twins cities are firmly a middle market.

[yarnivek1972]

 

The front  office waved the white  flag  when they traded Garcia. I think he was never intended as additional player he was chip to acquire the prospects from NY and he pitched so they could eat his salary.  Look back at the Two world series team of Twins if front offices had raised white flag like these guys we would not have had two world series wins. 87  Twins numbers were very similar to these Twins and yet they put it together at end won world championship.

 

 

What are you basing this on?  A lot of youngish players?  That would be more in line with the 1984 version.  By the time 1987 rolled around, many of the regulars had 5 full seasons under their belts.

 

Their W-L record?  The Twins worst record in 1987 was one game under .500 - and that was for ONE DAY.  They were never under .500 after May.  They were in first place 127 days in 1987 and in first for good by June 10.  That is not the way the season is going in 2017.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Dozier too, FWIW. He's at 104 wRC+/.330 wOBA. AL average for 2B is 96/.317

 

average is kind of silly, it's the delta between being good and not that matters. He's really far from being good. I'd suggest median, or looking at rankings, not averages......how's his baserunning? defense? 

[Doomtints]

Dozier and Odor are very similar players in that their 2B bats are feast-or-famine power coupled with competent but not spectacular defense.  

 

Odor may finish his career making twice what Dozier will make even though Dozier is successful more often. It's tough to say that the Twins are getting a bum deal with Dozier.

[drjim]

 

I'm not trying to win. May everyone's day be better for it.

 

I'm already tired of all the winning.

[Craig Arko]

 

I'm already tired of all the winning.

It's like a bad habit.

[ND-Fan]

This years Twins were not given a chance when you look they did nothing for the bull pen especially when they lost May in spring training. It was biggest weakness this team had coming out spring training and especially with weak starting pitching staff. If they truly putting winning team on the field they would have looked for reliever back in May to early June after this team was showing it could win. Getting back to 1987 Twins over off season they acquired Jeff Reardon shut down closer did we see any move like that this year no and they signed Juan Berenguer in the off season 8 inning setup man. The Twins were needing pitching and they went traded for Joe Neikro in first few days of June not trading deadline but early enough to make a difference. Second yes there was only one play off series then but you also had to win your division and back then schedule was balanced you didn't play your division more than tougher eastern division and usually Eastern division opponent was loaded team because they had to be that way to compete in eastern division. But still came down to getting into the playoffs getting hot at the right time. Today its even more that way now because there are 3 more playoff openings and look in the last 10 years how many wild card teams have made world series while division winners with the big records get beaten out. Also today it much easier to close this distance in standings because your playing so many games in your division and if you can beat teams in your division because not all division are equal and look at AL central consider weaker division but teams have faired quite well in playoffs in last 10 years. Its not now who has best team for the long haul but who has team that is hot at the end of season and is playing good baseball. Cubs won last year being total team but prior to that the favorites in baseball have failed. Winning in baseball is funny thing you look at teams on paper who look to be winners and it doesn't happen and teams that thought to be not ready get there. The Twins of 10 years ago won and never had no success in playoffs so everyone thinks now we have to have this perfect team. What happen to those teams if you look is almost every time we got there we came in playoffs hurt with one or two of star players hurt and we were playing a deep playoff club. Also those teams had mental block in playing  New York and one time they got Oakland was the hot team so you never know in playoffs because it who's hot for just  few games. This is change in baseball where in past the team with best record in baseball was won that played in fall classic today its not that it may mean the team who played the best down the stretch last two months got into playoffs. Look at how many world series teams have been wild cards

[Brandon Warne]

 

Dozier and Odor are very similar players in that their 2B bats are feast-or-famine power coupled with competent but not spectacular defense.  

 

The primary difference is that Dozier takes his walks. Also, keep in mind that when Dozier was Odor's age, he was hitting .275/.350/.349 -- between Fort Myers and Beloit. At the same age Odor debuted, Dozier was a sophomore at Southern Miss. 

[Brandon Warne]

 

Yonder Alonso was claimed by the Mariners and swapped with Boog Powell. If Twins were trying to win this year that could have been an easy pick up.

 

Had a really nice first half, but doesn't have a long track record, doesn't have a contract past this year and has been Robbie Grossman -- the guy he'd be displacing -- in the second half: .230/.356/.377.

 

That's not to say that I'd hate it, but it would also be a little puzzling, because he can't play at all v. LHP (almost a 300-point OPS drop). 

[old nurse]

 

This years Twins were not given a chance when you look they did nothing for the bull pen especially when they lost May in spring training. It was biggest weakness this team had coming out spring training and especially with weak starting pitching staff. If they truly putting winning team on the field they would have looked for reliever back in May to early June after this team was showing it could win. Getting back to 1987 Twins over off season they acquired Jeff Reardon shut down closer did we see any move like that this year no and they signed Juan Berenguer in the off season 8 inning setup man. The Twins were needing pitching and they went traded for Joe Neikro in first few days of June not trading deadline but early enough to make a difference. Second yes there was only one play off series then but you also had to win your division and back then schedule was balanced you didn't play your division more than tougher eastern division and usually Eastern division opponent was loaded team because they had to be that way to compete in eastern division. But still came down to getting into the playoffs getting hot at the right time. Today its even more that way now because there are 3 more playoff openings and look in the last 10 years how many wild card teams have made world series while division winners with the big records get beaten out. Also today it much easier to close this distance in standings because your playing so many games in your division and if you can beat teams in your division because not all division are equal and look at AL central consider weaker division but teams have faired quite well in playoffs in last 10 years. Its not now who has best team for the long haul but who has team that is hot at the end of season and is playing good baseball. Cubs won last year being total team but prior to that the favorites in baseball have failed. Winning in baseball is funny thing you look at teams on paper who look to be winners and it doesn't happen and teams that thought to be not ready get there. The Twins of 10 years ago won and never had no success in playoffs so everyone thinks now we have to have this perfect team. What happen to those teams if you look is almost every time we got there we came in playoffs hurt with one or two of star players hurt and we were playing a deep playoff club. Also those teams had mental block in playing  New York and one time they got Oakland was the hot team so you never know in playoffs because it who's hot for just  few games. This is change in baseball where in past the team with best record in baseball was won that played in fall classic today its not that it may mean the team who played the best down the stretch last two months got into playoffs. Look at how many world series teams have been wild cards

Jeff Reardon was only a shut down closer once in his career. That was the 87 world series.  He had a 4.48 ERA that year. Those are currently Belisle and Duffye type numbers.  Joe Niekro provided a 6.26 ERA. He did them a favor being caught with the nail file. Kyle Gibson so far this year has provided the Twins what Niekro was to the 87 Twins.  The perfect scenario worked out in 87. The muddled through the division, winning when they needed to. Beat a Detroit team quickly enough to set up their 3 man rotation  for the World Series. That kind of scenario is rare.

[ahart10]

Alonso isn't the guy. He can't hit LH pitching to save his life. A RH hitting Alonso MIGHT be ok but frankly not much of an upgrade over what they already have in Grossman. I'd rather see them call up Garver and give him an everyday shot.

Grossman would DH for Alonso, or play OF for Kepler against lefty starters. I agree that he's not the player to make the Twins contenders. Maybe for a WC berth. Not like Mariners gave up much, not sure who Twins version of "Powell" is.

[SwainZag]

 

This years Twins were not given a chance when you look they did nothing for the bull pen especially when they lost May in spring training. It was biggest weakness this team had coming out spring training and especially with weak starting pitching staff. If they truly putting winning team on the field they would have looked for reliever back in May to early June after this team was showing it could win. Getting back to 1987 Twins over off season they acquired Jeff Reardon shut down closer did we see any move like that this year no and they signed Juan Berenguer in the off season 8 inning setup man. The Twins were needing pitching and they went traded for Joe Neikro in first few days of June not trading deadline but early enough to make a difference. Second yes there was only one play off series then but you also had to win your division and back then schedule was balanced you didn't play your division more than tougher eastern division and usually Eastern division opponent was loaded team because they had to be that way to compete in eastern division. But still came down to getting into the playoffs getting hot at the right time. Today its even more that way now because there are 3 more playoff openings and look in the last 10 years how many wild card teams have made world series while division winners with the big records get beaten out. Also today it much easier to close this distance in standings because your playing so many games in your division and if you can beat teams in your division because not all division are equal and look at AL central consider weaker division but teams have faired quite well in playoffs in last 10 years. Its not now who has best team for the long haul but who has team that is hot at the end of season and is playing good baseball. Cubs won last year being total team but prior to that the favorites in baseball have failed. Winning in baseball is funny thing you look at teams on paper who look to be winners and it doesn't happen and teams that thought to be not ready get there. The Twins of 10 years ago won and never had no success in playoffs so everyone thinks now we have to have this perfect team. What happen to those teams if you look is almost every time we got there we came in playoffs hurt with one or two of star players hurt and we were playing a deep playoff club. Also those teams had mental block in playing  New York and one time they got Oakland was the hot team so you never know in playoffs because it who's hot for just  few games. This is change in baseball where in past the team with best record in baseball was won that played in fall classic today its not that it may mean the team who played the best down the stretch last two months got into playoffs. Look at how many world series teams have been wild cards

 

I mean this as constructive criticism, you should look into using paragraphs it makes things much, much easier to read.

[howeda7]

I'd rather get Vargas up here than worry about claiming Alonzo. If Pressly is 'fixed', send down Busenitz. He hasn't pitched in a week. We don't need 8 relievers. And obviously get Garver up and send our clean-up hitting back-up catcher on his way.