Berrios staying in the minors?

[gunnarthor]

http://www.startribune.com/twins-plan-to-keep-jose-berrios-in-minors-for-now/421102063/

 

Ugh.

 

"“Command the fastball, yes,” manager Paul Molitor said, “but he needs the other pitches, too. It’s one of those things where we’re not trying to jump the gun. He needs to continue to polish. We have all been anxious to see young talent get up here in the past. Right now, I think continued patience is what everyone has a consensus on, for the most part.”"

 

35 starts already at AAA. Over 200 innings at AAA. 

[PseudoSABR]

 

35 starts already at AAA. Over 200 innings at AAA. 

The number of starts and innings is about as meaningful as his awesome AAA stats themselves if what Molitor says is true: that he's still lacking command of his fastball.

 

I want to see him up here too, but given the results last year (with a lot of success at AAA under his belt), I think its prudent for the Twins to be conservative/cautious, and look beyond the box score for evidence of readiness. 

[gunnarthor]

 

The number of starts and innings is about as meaningful as his awesome AAA stats themselves if what Molitor says is true: that he's still lacking command of his fastball.

 

I want to see him up here too, but given the results last year (with a lot of success at AAA under his belt), I think its prudent for the Twins to be conservative/cautious, and look beyond the box score for evidence of readiness. 

Yes, no, maybe. If he's had 35 starts and the coaching staff down there hasn't had him fix it, I want new AAA coaches. 

[PseudoSABR]

 

Yes, no, maybe. If he's had 35 starts and the coaching staff down there hasn't had him fix it, I want new AAA coaches. 

Sure, I guess.  But I imagine/hope the plan for Berrios (as with all of our pitchers) has changed since the new regime.  They probably haven't had the same approach for Berrios over that 35 starts (unfortunately).  

 

I suppose one could be frustrated by Berrios being kept down, but that Molitor was so specific with why he's not coming up (lack of fastball command) suggests that the coaches/front office are looking for execution of a particular plan.  

 

At certain point when do we stop blaming coaching/management and put some onus on the player.  I think people put out of their mind just how crazy bad Berrios was last year at the ML level.  His prior AAA success is totally meaningless given those results. 

[yarnivek1972]

I'm not sure I'm buying the company line. I'm peering at his game logs and he's throwing roughly 2/3 of his pitches for strikes. He's walked 8 in 35 IP. I understand there is a difference between command and control. A lot of pitchers can throw the ball over the strike zone. The good ones throw it exactly where they want to throw it. But, if he was not commanding his pitches, wouldn't hitters be hitting them? They are not.

 

By that same logic, how does Gibson have a spot in the rotation? He's lacked command of his fastball for almost two years now.

[drjim]

A lot of those strikes are swinging strikes that fool AAA hitters that mlb hitters will laugh it.

 

I buy the company line in the sense that it was the problem that dogged him in the bigs last year, but it is a little discouraging that it hasn't improved enough by now.

 

I don't like this, Tepesch does nothing for me. But if the front office has a very specific plan with very specific benchmarks, I guess I can accept it.

[drjim]

I'm not sure I'm buying the company line. I'm peering at his game logs and he's throwing roughly 2/3 of his pitches for strikes. He's walked 8 in 35 IP. I understand there is a difference between command and control. A lot of pitchers can throw the ball over the strike zone. The good ones throw it exactly where they want to throw it. But, if he was not commanding his pitches, wouldn't hitters be hitting them? They are not.

 

By that same logic, how does Gibson have a spot in the rotation? He's lacked command of his fastball for almost two years now.

Gibson has nothing to do with Berrios. They aren't judged by the same standard.

[PseudoSABR]

Also, a strike doesn't necessarily mean the pitcher hit his spot.   

[yarnivek1972]

A lot of those strikes are swinging strikes that fool AAA hitters that mlb hitters will laugh it.

 

I buy the company line in the sense that it was the problem that dogged him in the bigs last year, but it is a little discouraging that it hasn't improved enough by now.

 

I don't like this, Tepesch does nothing for me. But if the front office has a very specific plan with very specific benchmarks, I guess I can accept it.

According to his game log, he has 84 strikes looking and just 51 swinging. Still buying?

[drjim]

According to his game log, he has 84 strikes looking and just 51 swinging. Still buying?

Sure. Those numbers prove nothing either way.

 

I don't think the Twins are keeping Berrios down for giggles. They do actually want the best for him and the franchise.

 

The fact that Molitor cited the very problem that caused problems for Berrios last year gives me a little pause. Makes me think therr is probably something to it.

 

I would still call him up over Tepesch.

[Guest]

Sure, I guess.  But I imagine/hope the plan for Berrios (as with all of our pitchers) has changed since the new regime.  They probably haven't had the same approach for Berrios over that 35 starts (unfortunately).  

 

I suppose one could be frustrated by Berrios being kept down, but that Molitor was so specific with why he's not coming up (lack of fastball command) suggests that the coaches/front office are looking for execution of a particular plan.  

 

At certain point when do we stop blaming coaching/management and put some onus on the player.  I think people put out of their mind just how crazy bad Berrios was last year at the ML level.  His prior AAA success is totally meaningless given those results.

 

I liked your comments up to the end. It seems like all we've heard over the past several years is that the player is responsible for not developing better. Players changed and management stayed, and losses accumulated, yet the message remained that the player needs to take more ownership for figuring out how to succeed.

[yarnivek1972]

Sure. Those numbers prove nothing either way.

 

I don't think the Twins are keeping Berrios down for giggles. They do actually want the best for him and the franchise.

 

The fact that Molitor cited the very problem that caused problems for Berrios last year gives me a little pause. Makes me think therr is probably something to it.

 

I would still call him up over Tepesch.

Do they not disprove your argument?

 

So, what is your rebuttal from the company line?

[KirbyDome89]

 

Yes, no, maybe. If he's had 35 starts and the coaching staff down there hasn't had him fix it, I want new AAA coaches. 

I wonder the same thing. For the people clamoring that he needs to stay down in AAA and work on command, what makes you trust that the coaching staff down there is capable of helping him? They've failed the last couple tries. Is the third time suddenly the charm? 

 

Disclaimer: I don't subscribe to the "needs better coaching," theory. 

 

Personally I think whatever was going on in his first 58 innings with the Twins can be righted by Berrios at the major league level. I don't think the Twins need to be "cautious," with him and what is left for him to learn can be taught in the big leagues by an MLB coaching staff. Its funny to me that over 200 dominant IPs at AAA is somehow a meaningless sample yet 58 poor IPs with the Twins is plenty to know he shouldn't be here. I agree that it's on him to learn how to be an effective MLB pitcher at this point, but part of finding that success requires that he actually pitch for the Twins.... 

[Guest]

Gibson has nothing to do with Berrios. They aren't judged by the same standard.

Disagree with the first. Completely agree with the second.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Molitor is blowing smoke out of his ass. He doesn't watch Berrios's starts. He doesn't have time.

[drjim]

Do they not disprove your argument?

 

So, what is your rebuttal from the company line?

I suspect none of us have seen enough of Berrios this year to adequately judge his fastball command. It wasn't good last year in the bigs. Wouldn't be the first time something that works in AAA doesn't work the majors. I assume they have something specific they want him to show in AAA before they bring him up. Citing strike numbers isn't going to tell us anything.

 

Considering the alternative (Tepesch) and Berrios performance so far this year, might be worth it to see if he could tighten it up in the majors. That would be my preference.

 

Or maybe they want to buy time, get him where he needs to be in AAA, and then have him come up for good when he is recalled.

[drjim]

Disagree with the first. Completely agree with the second.

Why are they related? Tepesch is taking the start Berrios would get.

[drjim]

Molitor is blowing smoke out of his ass. He doesn't watch Berrios's starts. He doesn't have time.

I bet he watches more than you think. He does review video of minor leaguers.

 

But more to the point, he is obviously the public face of a decision made by the front office, likely with some consultation from Molitor.

[yarnivek1972]

I suspect none of us have seen enough of Berrios this year to adequately judge his fastball command. It wasn't good last year in the bigs. Wouldn't be the first time something that works in AAA doesn't work the majors. I assume they have something specific they want him to show in AAA before they bring him up. Citing strike numbers isn't going to tell us anything.

 

Considering the alternative (Tepesch) and Berrios performance so far this year, might be worth it to see if he could tighten it up in the majors. That would be my preference.

 

Or maybe they want to buy time, get him where he needs to be in AAA, and then have him come up for good when he is recalled.

The Twins aren't going to find out if it works in the majors if Berrios doesn't pitch in the majors.

 

Again, the company line in March was that he needed to get stretched out. That was obviously baloney. Why believe them now?

[Guest]

Why are they related? Tepesch is taking the start Berrios would get.

Many teams pick their best five starters.

[TheLeviathan]

If 200 innings with these coaches in AAA haven't been enough....how much more time do we do it?

 

We keep the kid down indefinitely?

 

When does that justification run out and we either look at incompetent coaching or scrap the plan?

[peterb18]

Gibson has nothing to do with Berrios. They aren't judged by the same standard.

Why not? I thought the best players play....

[DJSim22]

 

The Twins aren't going to find out if it works in the majors if Berrios doesn't pitch in the majors.

Again, the company line in March was that he needed to get stretched out. That was obviously baloney. Why believe them now?

 

So why are they holding him back then?  

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I bet he watches more than you think. He does review video of minor leaguers.

But more to the point, he is obviously the public face of a decision made by the front office, likely with some consultation from Molitor.

On the second part, you could be right. If Molly is going to be the public voice of the team he's going to get a big say on the roster, however. I guess what is unknown is exactly how much say he has.

 

We do know Molitor wanted Tepesch to make the team in spring over Tonkin and Haley.

[drivlikejehu]

So that I understand - Berrios needs to work on his command against hitters that don't punish him for mistakes? mmm k.

[yarnivek1972]

And here's another pro call up argument: IMO Berrios is going to learn a lot more about what it means to pitch at the MLB level watching Ervin Santana go about his business than he will from his AAA pitching coach, 60 year old Stu Cliburn. He's been with the Twins so long he predates Terry Ryan's tenure as GM. Too long IMO.

[Mr. Brooks]

The number of starts and innings is about as meaningful as his awesome AAA stats themselves if what Molitor says is true: that he's still lacking command of his fastball.

 

I want to see him up here too, but given the results last year (with a lot of success at AAA under his belt), I think its prudent for the Twins to be conservative/cautious, and look beyond the box score for evidence of readiness.

So what if he continues to dominate the stat sheet in AAA but never improves his fastball command beyond what it is now?

Are you honestly going to just let him finish out his tenure in the minors and never going to give him another shot?

What if 35 starts become 150 starts with dominant stats?

 

I realize that's unlikely, but I'm just wondering if there does indeed come a point at which you'd call him you even if the fastball command doesn't improve but he continues to crush AAA?

 

At some point I think you say that asking for perfection at AAA is being too conservative. At some point I think you say he's a highly regarded prospects who has dominated AAA, let's go ahead and let him learn the rest from the MLB coaches and catchers.

[DaveW]

There is zero, and I mean ZERO reason for Berrios to remain in AAA, I sort of begin to wonder if this is all coming from the very top of the org (Pohlads) where they still have no idea how service time and all of that works.

"If we bring up Berrios, we have to increase his salary from 55k to 400k overnight! Bad investment! Bad investment!"

[Otto von Ballpark]

If they are still not getting whatever they want out of Berrios at AAA, after this many starts/ innings, isn't that an argument for a change, and against the status quo?

 

Maybe throwing to Castro/Gimenez? Maybe a stint in the MLB bullpen?

[drjim]

 

On the second part, you could be right. If Molly is going to be the public voice of the team he's going to get a big say on the roster, however. I guess what is unknown is exactly how much say he has.

We do know Molitor wanted Tepesch to make the team in spring over Tonkin and Haley.

 

He was probably right about Tepesch over Tonkin and Haley.