Can't we just enjoy what we have?

[Nick Nelson]

Passionate fans are better than apathetic fans.

Very well said. Personally, I haven't found the overall tone of rhetoric here to be overly positive or negative. Certainly there are people who go over the top in focusing on the bad rather than the good (and vice versa) and some of the front office rants can get a tad ridiculous, but generally people are just speaking their minds and that's the purpose of a forum.

 

Whether people are celebrating the successes of individual players (and there's been plenty of that) or brainstorming ways to rebuild a contending team, they're voicing their opinion and showing that they care about what's happening on the field. Isn't that why we're here? If everyone shared the same rosy-eyed viewpoints, the discussions wouldn't be very interesting.

[bird]

ericchri, one of the absolutely best, most balanced comments I've ever read here. Thank you. Please speak up more often.

[TheLeviathan]

No one can predict the future, but I'd just like to point out one thing:

 

Almost everything going right for the Twins this year could be put in the "unexpected", "fluke", or "likely not sustainable" categories

 

Almost everything gone wrong was because of mismanagement by the organization.

 

If I'm a betting man, that makes me nervous about the future.

[jeffk]

I'm sympathetic to the original poster. On one hand, the point of a forum like this is so a bunch of baseball nerds can bitch and discuss hypothetical scenarios. Certainly it's boring if it's just a bunch of cheerleading. On the other hand, for some people the wheeling-and-dealing mindset has gotten out of hand. Why would you trade Revere? He's good, young, cheap, and you developed him. That's the kind of player you trade *for*. If you are dead set on trading an outfielder, you trade the veteran Span.

[Shane Wahl]

No one can predict the future, but I'd just like to point out one thing:

 

Almost everything going right for the Twins this year could be put in the "unexpected", "fluke", or "likely not sustainable" categories

 

Almost everything gone wrong was because of mismanagement by the organization.

 

If I'm a betting man, that makes me nervous about the future.

Nick Blackburn being THIS terrible, Jason Marquis being THAT terrible, Pavano returning to injury-form, Danny Valencia being THAT terrible, Brian Duensing forced into the starting rotation, neither Joe Benson nor Chris Parmelee being a factor this year are/were unexpected, I think. You could say that you knew the first four mentioned were bad players, but no way could you predict that they would be this awful.

[snepp]

On the other hand, for some people the wheeling-and-dealing mindset has gotten out of hand. Why would you trade Revere? He's good, young, cheap, and you developed him. That's the kind of player you trade *for*. If you are dead set on trading an outfielder, you trade the veteran Span.

Then let's make a bunch of rules stating who can and cannot be discussed and in what way to discuss them. This way there won't be anything to bitch about! I'll start.

 

Revere - no trade discussion allowed

 

Span - trade discussion allowed

 

Gray - no DFA discussion allowed

 

Feel free to add.

[ofx1]

Then let's make a bunch of rules stating who can and cannot be discussed and in what way to discuss them. This way there won't be anything to bitch about! I'll start.

 

Revere - no trade discussion allowed

 

Span - trade discussion allowed

 

Gray - no DFA discussion allowed

 

Feel free to add.

Nishioka - no pointing out errors, lack of hits, but you can mention he's leading the league in Camel Bucks

 

Blackburn - no pointing out any stats whatsoever

 

Pavano - no pointing out porn 'stache, bagdhad body

 

Butera - no mentioning at all allowed

[darin617]

[h=1]Can't we just enjoy what we have?[/h]What do we have? Ownership that doesn't want to spend the money it takes to win. You cannot pay a single player $23M and have a $100M payroll. You have to either trade Mauer or add some quality arms to the rotation so they can compete.

 

I wanted the Twins to trade for AJ Burnett, I know he would have not posted as good as numbers in the AL.

[TheLeviathan]

Nick Blackburn being THIS terrible, Jason Marquis being THAT terrible, Pavano returning to injury-form, Danny Valencia being THAT terrible, Brian Duensing forced into the starting rotation, neither Joe Benson nor Chris Parmelee being a factor this year are/were unexpected, I think. You could say that you knew the first four mentioned were bad players, but no way could you predict that they would be this awful.

Other than that last one - I think those are all perfectly reasonable to expect. The problem was that the roster was managed in such a way that these players became critical, rather than role players. So, these are pretty bad examples if you want to contest the point.

 

Nothing says these positives can't continue, they very well might. I'm just not convinced we should bank much on it.

[nokomismod]

I think the Twins, with their success during the previous ~10 years, created a passionate fan base. Some of us older nerds were here for the good and bad times before that. The Twins and us fans are lucky that there are a lot of us that are still paying attention. Look at Cleveland and KC for example and the apathy that has set in there.

Count me as a glass half full guy. If I'm paying attention to it, it better bring me joy or else I will find something else. I appreciate all of the smart baseball types that come here. I personally think it's great to have a site led by some bright baseball minds, that gives us a place to share ideas about how we would improve the team or discuss a great/crazy/bad play from last night's game.

Lastly, I'm hoping this rebuild doesn't take as long as the 94-2001 period. I really think we are trending positive and that the team is only 2 starting pitchers away from being competitive again. Let's hope it's next year!

[Craig Arko]

Then let's make a bunch of rules stating who can and cannot be discussed and in what way to discuss them. This way there won't be anything to bitch about! I'll start.

 

Feel free to add.

I think there's really only one rule required.

 

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2010/08/17/dont-be-a-dick-part-1-the-video/

[mikeee]

I have a cold drink, so I am enjoying it!

[YourHouseIsMyHouse]

It's actually Mauer.

You should have named it M-eow-er.

[Nick Nelson]

No one can predict the future, but I'd just like to point out one thing:

 

Almost everything going right for the Twins this year could be put in the "unexpected", "fluke", or "likely not sustainable" categories

 

Almost everything gone wrong was because of mismanagement by the organization.

 

If I'm a betting man, that makes me nervous about the future.

Yeah, when a bunch of first-round draft picks like Perkins and Plouffe and Revere and Parmelee figure things out in their mid-20s and start looking like long-term impact players, it certainly reflects poorly on the front office and coaching staff. But hey, no one can predict the future so they'll probably all fall off the typical progression curve and start sucking immediately after this year. Very fair assessment there.

 

What I would call unexpected, flukish and unsustainable was the putridity of the starting staff in April and May. And it was unsustainable. Even with a crop of Quad-A arms, the rotation has been at least serviceable enough to keep the team afloat since then. If you're telling me you expected the pitching to be as wretched as it was in the first third of the season – one of the worst stretches of performance for any team in the past decade – I don't believe you.

 

It's difficult to exaggerate the severity of this team's problems but, to the OP's point, a number of people around here manage to do it.

[old nurse]

With career years from both, this team might win the Central and then it will be 3 and out as usual.

You are right for the wrong reason. With a Tapani/ Morris and the three best remaining starters the team would do very well. The problem is in the lineup. Who is the player that could say "Jump on my back" Willingham or Morneau maybe. The rest, no. Mauer has the talent but not the makeup.

[Fatt Crapps]

Well if we're talking doggies, I should probably mention LMB (Little Monty Burns) However, he's not familiar with the MN Twins...he reminisces about the days of Cap Anson and Mordecai "Three Finger" Brown.

 

[Shane Wahl]

Other than that last one - I think those are all perfectly reasonable to expect. The problem was that the roster was managed in such a way that these players became critical, rather than role players. So, these are pretty bad examples if you want to contest the point.

 

Nothing says these positives can't continue, they very well might. I'm just not convinced we should bank much on it.

No they were not reasonable to expect. Again, Blackburn and Marquis being bad was a fair prediction. Being the worst in baseball was not a reasonable expectation. ERAs around 5 is one thing, around 7 or 8 is truly barbaric. I think some people have already forgotten how completely terrible the starting pitching was into May. Blackburn and Pavano were hurt the whole time (likely), Liriano had to move to the 'pen for awhile, and they had to actually send Marquis packing. None of that could have been expected. It was a complete disgrace.

 

And I forgot to even mention Hendriks! I did not imagine him being that terrible either. They had 4 guys with 7-8.00 ERAs! And Pavano who was around or over 5.00!

[Brock Beauchamp]

Drew Nishioka

Is his middle name Straker?

[TheLeviathan]

Yeah, when a bunch of first-round draft picks like Perkins and Plouffe and Revere and Parmelee figure things out in their mid-20s and start looking like long-term impact players, it certainly reflects poorly on the front office and coaching staff. But hey, no one can predict the future so they'll probably all fall off the typical progression curve and start sucking immediately after this year. Very fair assessment there.

I'm sorry, aren't you the same Nick Nelson who said, effectively, that Perkins "sucks at baseball" and should be cut just two years ago? And wasn't Plouffe unable to field a position and batting in the .100s in April? Revere we might have expected to contribute...but again....to this degree? Willingham's career year of health and production in his mid-30s? I can go on, but you're intentionally missing the point (and being hostile doing it - cute!).

 

I'm not suggesting that all of these guys are going to suck. But two years ago we were saying the same things about Valencia that we are about Plouffe. Same with Delmon. Same with Liriano. In 2011 we looked mighty stupid for assuming all those out-of-the-norm career spikes were going to continue.

 

As for the pitching, what we walked into ST with (not counting Baker's issues) was an aging pitcher with a long track record of injury, a headcase we didn't know what we'd get performance-wise, a Gardy-guy who hasn't been good since game 163, a converted NL pitcher who makes Pavano look like a power guy, and a lefty that can't get righties out. Were they even worse than should have been expected? Yes, but if you can say with a straight face that you were "surprised" that this rotation was one of the AL's worst, then you've severely lowered you standards for what a quality starting pitcher is.

 

I'm not saying all of these good things can't last. They very well might. But if you go ahead thinking this group can get it done with just some pitching help - I think you're in for a rude awakening in 2013 when some of these things normalize. That's not being negative, that's just being realistic. I still flip on the TV, cheer when we win, and enjoy what I'm seeing. It is possible to be a fan of your team, enjoy it, but also be a realist when you sit down and talk about things hypothetically on here.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Morneau is the one bat I would be willing to give up, but I don't think it is *needed* to get quality starting pitching. The team is 38-35 in its past 73 games. That's what . . . a 85 win pace or so? Two pitchers for $20-25 million and the eventual promotion of Gibson could raise that number to 92-95, right?

Don't forget that the team has to replace what was *mostly* a good Liriano for over a third of a season. That's no easy task in itself, nor can we count on Diamond, Plouffe, Willingham, Doumit & Co to continue playing at this level going forward. A lot has gone right this season and if the Twins really plan on competing, they're going to have to sacrifice offense for pitching. I don't see how they post a winning record next season without new players. It isn't likely they will be able to use smoke and mirrors again to just get by. They need quality arms.

[Guest USAFChief]

Brock Beauchamp?

 

Sellout.

[Craig Arko]

Brock Beauchamp?

 

Sellout.

He couldn't even enjoy a screenname.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Brock Beauchamp?

 

Sellout.

Heh, I'm not crazy about the change either but I submitted TD to several major news outlets this morning (Google, Bing, Yahoo!) and their requirements are that authors are fully accredited.

 

Trust me, I hate giving up the Rocketpig screenname more than anyone. Hell, it's the URL for my site and it's the screen name I've been using for 15 years.

[Craig Arko]

Heh, I'm not crazy about the change either but I submitted TD to several major news outlets this morning (Google, Bing, Yahoo!) and their requirements are that authors are fully accredited.

 

Trust me, I hate giving up the Rocketpig screenname more than anyone. Hell, it's the URL for my site and it's the screen name I've been using for 15 years.

Hey, that's pretty cool. Congratulations on the new exposure.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Hey, that's pretty cool. Congratulations on the new exposure.

Thanks. We haven't gotten in yet but I think there's a good chance at least one of them accepts us into the fold. TD is quickly becoming one of the best Twins sites out there and John, Seth, Parker, and Nick (along with Jim, Cody, and Jeremy) are churning out fantastic content.

[stringer bell]

I think the Twins will have to part with valuable parts in order to compete next year. I think it should be Span and Morneau. That leaves no room for error--the productive guys need to be productive again next year and long-term injuries would have to be avoided--and somebody (probably Parmelee) needs to step up and be productive. The Twins must add quality starting pitching if they are serious about contending and they need to get lucky--as it appears they have with Plouffe and Diamond this year.

[stringer bell]

Heh, I'm not crazy about the change either but I submitted TD to several major news outlets this morning (Google, Bing, Yahoo!) and their requirements are that authors are fully accredited.

 

Trust me, I hate giving up the Rocketpig screenname more than anyone. Hell, it's the URL for my site and it's the screen name I've been using for 15 years.

Thanks for the explanation.

[UCLA_YANKEE_COLA]

Enough about Rocket Pig. More dogs please.

[Shane Wahl]

I think the Twins will have to part with valuable parts in order to compete next year. I think it should be Span and Morneau. That leaves no room for error--the productive guys need to be productive again next year and long-term injuries would have to be avoided--and somebody (probably Parmelee) needs to step up and be productive. The Twins must add quality starting pitching if they are serious about contending and they need to get lucky--as it appears they have with Plouffe and Diamond this year.

The Twins parting with both Span and Morneau would struggle to compete next year.

[Shane Wahl]

Heh, I'm not crazy about the change either but I submitted TD to several major news outlets this morning (Google, Bing, Yahoo!) and their requirements are that authors are fully accredited.

 

Trust me, I hate giving up the Rocketpig screenname more than anyone. Hell, it's the URL for my site and it's the screen name I've been using for 15 years.

Very cool!